Shoot, Shovel, Shut up. Mtn Lion in Carmel,CA

[gunsmith]

http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/news/local/7597758.htm
snipped:
Mountain lion killing goats in Carmel Valley
By KEVIN HOWE
[email protected]

A mountain lion prowling Carmel Valley apparently has taken three goats from back yards in a rural neighborhood this month.

In one case, the goat's owners saw the big cat carry his prey over a fence on Scarlett Road, according to state Department of Fish and Game Warden Barry Ceccon.

He has investigated three different incidents in the past four weeks.

Firing high-powered rifles at lions in such crowded neighborhoods, Ceccon said, obviously poses a danger to other residents.

yeah,what about shotguns?

Citizens are within their rights to shoot a lion in the act of attacking domestic animals or humans, Ceccon said, but the incident should be reported to Fish and Game.

sure,then be arrested for shooting your illegal "assault weapon" or other nonsense.

 

[striker3]

Find someone with some good dogs, they'll tree it and you can get within an easy 10 yards. 00 Buck will do the trick nicely with little danger to the surrounding area...But oh wait, this is CA, mountain lions are illegal to hunt, so where would you find the trained dogs...

Anyways, why would you want to kill one of those quite cuddly big cats?

On another note, My Dad who is in AZ recently got a large Tom. The cat, as near as they could figure, had killed 22 calves and 1 colt on his ranch alone.

For those that don't know livestock prices, that is over $10,000 worth of animals. Mountain lions are a menace.

 

[TallPine]

One of our Alaskan THR members (maybe Keith from Kodiak?) said that the natives in the villages get rid of nuisance grizzly bears by shooting them in the gut so that they go off into the brush and die.

A 22 might work for cougars ....

 

[4v50 Gary]

Ever since the treehuggers voted to "save the cat" the state has been overrunned by the cat. We had a proposition proposing a study to cull cats and even that went down in flames. When the tree huggers (most of whom don't care for guns) go into the woods and find themselves face to face with the cat, I'll call it kharma. OK, don't wish ill will upon them, but I go prepared.

 

[eXe]

Oh man, and people wonder why I moved away from that area in California.

That area they are talking about is really rural, it was about 10 miles from where I used to live in California. Homes go for about 800,000 to 2 million. Doubt any of them out there would have anything other than an expensive hunting rifle to shoot at the animals out there.

 

[George Hill]

I have it on good authority that a .357 Magnum to the gut does the trick too.

We have Cougars here too.
Er... or had...

 

[R127]

Whoever decided scorched earth and wiping out every species that may offend you in some small way are good gun-friendly evironmental policies is a knucklehead... no, worse, a scum sucking moron. First off, the cow is a stupid, disgusting animal, the ruined remains of what was once the auroch. I could care less if the downbred bovine passed into the beyond to be jeered and booed by its great hoofed ancestors. Second, there's nothing wrong with the cougar, which is a respectable beast you ought to be honored to have living in your area.

Personally, I say raise livestock that is naturally resistant to such predation. I'm sure something like a bison would fare better than a cow. Or get a guard animal, or heck, a shepard.

Now if it's a case of something dangerous getting too close to a settlement, sure, trap it or kill it, but you don't need to wipe them all out because some tree-hugging, anti-gun moron says save them. That's just reactionary and short-sighted. I guess maybe if you're some kind of exclusively urbanite individual it doesn't matter, but those of us who actually enjoy the outdoors and wildlife would really prefer it if the world weren't paved over from one end to the other and all lifeforms except humans and roaches ceased to exist.

I happen to live in a state that once had panthers, ranchers killed them because they didn't want to lose livestock, farmers destroyed habitat to make room for fields, .govs destoryed habitat by draining the swamps and preventing the seasonal burns, poachers killed them for proffit or just for kicks. Consequently there is a very real possibility they're going to be gone forever in not too much longer, in my years in the backcountry and wilderness I've never directly seen a single individual. It's a terrible loss and my state is poorer for it.

And yes, I'll pay more for something that doesn't require the erradication of cougars, mountain lions, or panthers by any other name. Heck, it's almost an insult to eat a cow, stupid piles of meat as they are. Raise the lions instead and I'll pay tripple what I'd pay for beef and you wouldn't have to worry about predation. Coincidentally, I do opt for alligator, another major indigenous predator, and one largely immune to any possible ill-effect of stalking panthers.

On general principle it's regrettable when any species passes into oblivion, but much moreso when your lands become depleted of all colorful and fantastic beasts. The utter sameness and sterile barreness of a subdued land is poison to the soul.

Well, I guess you either "get it" or you never will, so no use rambling on anymore. It's just this kind of talk really hits a sore spot. Kinda like gross violations of the bill of rights, or even basic human decency.

 

[JohnKSa]

R127,

That's the funniest thing I've read in awhile.

I especially like the part about your state being poorer for not having mountain lions.

The stuff about cows being disgusting piles of meat was pretty good too.

You should write for TV.

PS. When you get some time, I'd like to see you do a line or two about mosquitos, roaches, the smallpox virus, sewer rats, house mice, rattlesnakes, and fire ants.

 

[gunsmith]

r127, see this thread

this one
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50007&highlight=wolf

we are not for killing all predators, though I know it may seem that way.
look up "Treadwell" in this forum as well and you will see we are angry
at him for getting two Grizz's killed.
As far as cows are concerned,having lived near a cow farm
I am inclined to agree except you forgot to mention how much they smell.

 

[striker3]

R127

Obviously from your post, you know nothing about livestock. So I am going to educate you.

Whoever decided scorched earth and wiping out every species that may offend you in some small way are good gun-friendly evironmental policies is a knucklehead... no, worse, a scum sucking moron.

You mean to tell me that you would honestly let tens of thousands of dollars go down the drain and not try to stop it? They are criminals stealing the property of others. I, or my Dad, have never killed a predator who was not actively killing our property. We have even let them get by with one kill, in the hopes that they were just passing through. But more than one is unexcusable. Also we have never shot more than our legal limit for the year. Never have I poached a predator.

Personally, I say raise livestock that is naturally resistant to such predation. I'm sure something like a bison would fare better than a cow.

There is a simple economic priciple called supply and demand. Cattle are in demand Bison are not.

Or get a guard animal, or heck, a shepard.

In Arizona, the whole state is open range, except incorporated townships and cities. The ranch that my Dad is the foreman of runs cattle on over 20,000 acres. You try getting enough dogs to herd cattle out there, They would turn wild and start causing more problems.

It all comes down to this; Ranchers have to earn a living.They have families to feed and bills to pay. Predators, whether two or four legged, cost them huge amounts of money every year. Then you have to add up the livestock who die of natural causes. Some of the smaller ranchers struggle just to stay even. Why would you blame them for doing everything in thier power to protect what is rightfully thiers, regardless of how you feel about thier product.

Your arguments have the stinging ring of what we on this board are always fighting against. Look at your personal opinions about cattle, replace cattle with assault weapons, or sniper rifle and the like. Seems like the type of arguments that antis use against us. They see no need for guns, so why should we be able to have them?

Learn the argument from both sides next time.

 

[gunsmith]

JohnSKa

Rattlesnakes are'nt all bad!
If you kill too many the rat/mice population will explode.
I've wondered if the hanta virus problem from a few yrs
ago wasn't related to lack of rat/mice predators.
see this!!
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/imagepages/17201.htm
Hanta virus is a distant cousin of Ebola virus, but is found worldwide. The virus is spread by human contact with rodent waste. Dangerous respiratory illness develops. Effective treatment is not yet available and over 50% of cases end in fatality.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/hanta/hps/

 

[JohnKSa]

gunsmith,

Yeah, I'm something of a snake fan myself.

Hanta virus has never been much of a problem except in very poor rural areas. Dunno if you could say that the snake population is very low in those areas.

Even if you killed off the rattlesnakes, there are other mouse predators that stick around and do a good job at population control. Other snake species as well as owls, hawks, coyotes, bobcats and even feral/domestic cats.

I also know that they kill an awful lot of rattlesnakes every year in TX without so much as denting the population. All in all, it's never quite as simple as saying that everything hinges on one species or even a couple of species.

Still, I'm definitely not saying that I'm for species eradication, I am all for eliminating as many as it takes to be safe and keep property from being damaged.

I agree that figuring things out can get difficult with large predators. It's pretty hard for something like a mountain lion or bear to coexist harmlessly with people, pets and livestock when they are forced into close proximity.

 

[George Hill]

Raising critters resistant to predators?

That would be either Llamas or Badgers. I'd rather not get around either. Badgers because they are evil and Llamas because they creep me out thanks to Dr Doolittle and that "Push Me-Pull You" creature. Unholy.
The only thing that could make them worse is if it was being ridden by a Clown. I hate clowns. Especially Libyan clowns. Gives me nightmares that are kind of a cross between "Poltergiest" and "Back to the Future".

Wait... what are we talking about?

 

[Art Eatman]

R127, where in this thread--or in any others in this forum--has anybody ever called for "eradication"?

Generally, interactions between predators and humans result from an over-crowded condition for the predators. Too many of them for the habitat.

You said, "...farmers destroyed habitat to make room for fields..." as though food for you and 300 million others to eat could be produced by some other means than farming. Or do you only eat native grasses, roots and berries? You shun all meat from domestic animals?

Sorry, but it sounds like you have a strong case of NIMBY-itis...Anything that doesn't suit you oughta be way-away elsewhere.

I note in passing that many animal rightists and ultra-enviromentalists use products of leather and wool; or products deriving from the world of oil and gas and petrochemicals. They protest against the very system which enables their behavior.

, Art

 

[R127]

Now wait just one minute! I like mosquitos, they used to keep the yankees and yuppies out!

Perhaps nobody meant erradication here, but it's just one of those things that keeps coming up and over a period of time it begins to wear you thin... and I'm awfully far removed for the so-called animal rights activists. I am primarily carnivorous, I can and will hunt and kill my own food, though I confess I'm not too handy when it comes to cooking on anything but a grill. I think leather, bone and horn all make excellent materials. While I stand by my opinion of cows, and that they smell bad too , yes, of course you have a right to keep and raise cows. I'm just saying that for me I'd rather eat something cooler, something with some spirit or fight in it. And yes, when I was a kid we used to occasaionally tangle with a big bull that was always escaping from the farm that bordered the back of our neghborhood. I will also eat a hamburger made of cow without complaining, and enjoy it, but not so much an equivalent meal prepared from a bison, big russian boar, alligator, or heck, an ostrich. No, I'm no tree-hugging, cow-banning, socialism-inspired hippy "animal rights activist," but that doesn't mean I don't have a keen interest in preserving wildlife and wilderness areas.

Yes, ranchers have a right to make a living, losing $1,000, never mind $10,000, sucks. Just the same a happy medium can always be found. I read this post here the other day about a rancher getting a permit to shoot the last male cougar in his area, that doesn't sound right to me. All I'm saying is it's gonna suck just as bad when you go looking for a lifeform to represent your state, having found that all self-respecting beasts suitable for such mascot duty have been killed off, and all you can come up with is the wiley illegal immigrant. If you're talking Arizona then I'm sure we can see things in the same light on that one...

 

[JohnDog]

R127,

Check out this book - just heard about it on NPR's morning edition today.

http://www.beastinthegarden.com/Excerpt.htm

Since that attack in 1991, two kids have been killed here in Colorado by lions, and other people have been attacked, treed and stalked by lions. Hell, last year a guy about a mile from my house thought a german sheperd was attacking his terrier in his backyard. Ran out and grabbed the "sheperd" by the ruff to pull it off of his dog, then he found out he had a mountain lion by the neck!!

Out here mountain lions aren't rare or endangered. I'm not advocating eradication, but I don't carry my .357 while in the woods only because I like the the way my belt pulls down to the right either. I personally think the increased human/lion interaction that is taking place is causing them to change their behavior. Our elk and deer populations are at or near all-time highs so the lions have a lot of prey, and the suburban interface has pushed into many areas that are excellent lion habitat. So lions see people all the time, and are losing their natural fear of humans. Along with that lions that are hunted are hunted in the backcountry, along way from their suburban cousins, who are not learing avoidance behavior.

What is going to happen in the future is up in the air. We had a group petition the DOW to lower the number of lion licenses due to the fact that success rates are around 25% for lion hunts (so obviously there are few lions or the success rate would be higher). Our bear hunting has already been limited by our state's initiative process. Maybe human/lion incidents will cause the DOW to change lion policy. Or maybe not. There is one thing I know though - I've seen more mountain lions in the last 5 years than I'd did in the 25 years before that. And I don't plan on being any lion lunch!

JohnDog

 

[gunsmith]

Llama killed by mtn lion

in Marin last year,I no longer have the link,but it was real close
to a state park the has tons of kids having picnics of course
being CA no firearms allowed.

 

[Quartus]

Bison is good meat, but spirit? Fight? You haven't seen bison lately. It's just a big, furry cow. No more a fighter than any Holstein on a dairy farm.

And no less, come to think of it.


And those of you who haven't tried buffalo burgers, well, you are missing out.


And if you live in Utah and haven't had buffalo steak, head north! George, what's the name of that restaraunt up in Brigham City? Good stuff, anyway.


Oh, George? Have you found your mind yet? George?

 

[Highland Ranger]

What's going to happen is easy to predict . . .

Just come to New Jersey where there is a black bear behind every tree.

Don't have the exact numbers but apparently the tree huggers got a grant to tag bears so they could try to determine what the actual bear population was based on how many tagged bears were taken during our first hunt in many years.

Long story short, based on the math, it looks like they could have underestimated by a factor of near TEN. Not widely publiscized as you might imagine.

At first they said 1500 bears, then 3000 . . . . now I don't believe the number is 30,000 but it sure is a lot more than three thousand.

So the ultimate outcome of your Mountain Lion situation will be that your wife will drive the kids 200 feet to the bus stop to keep the kids from playing a game of tag with Smoky (or in your case, Snagglepus)

 

[Art Eatman]

Folks gripe about the "delicate aroma" of feedlots and oil fields. That calls to mind what I heard from a CBer south of Houston as we passed downwind from a refinery: "Ahhhhhh...Smells like money!" He was thinking about his job and paycheck and suchlike, of course.

If you think a cattle feedlot is bad, just be glad it ain't hogs!

But as one who's raised mama cows and feeder calves for a goodly number of years, well, I've never noticed any particular problem with any notable smell from "meadow muffins" in the pasture. You do sorta have to pay attention to where you walk, of course...

, Art

 

[sm]

notable smell from "meadow muffins"

Art...that'd be the smell of money again. Yep seems like them ejumacated folk will pay monies, put 'em to dry, and charge even more ejumacated folks them they is to toss 'em back in the pasture...give prizes for tossing something back where it come from.

Fella didn't need no fancy bidnes 'gree...call it cow chip chunking...you come up with it, folks will pay for the 'tunity.

 

[smokemaker]

You haven't seen bison lately. It's just a big, furry cow. No more a fighter than any Holstein on a dairy farm

Ever been around free roaming shaggies?
In TR National Park in the badlands of ND there are two free roaming bison herds. I have been close enough on two occasions to get snorted by them. Oh, and the park service's ford explorer... with a headprint and two horn holes in the side of it, after a shaggy charged and rammed it. I worked on dairy farms for about 4 years of my life, and never saw a Holstein charge a motor vehicle.
My friends, good old bison bison is not the same as an overgrown Holstein... no no. Think Jersey bull with bipolar disorder and few hundred more pounds on it and you're getting close.

Oh, and Art...if you think hogs is stinky, be glad it ain't chickens!! (whew!)

 

[Quartus]

Ever been around free roaming shaggies?

Ever been around free roaming longhorns?


I think the "free roaming" has something to do with it.


You think chickens smell worse than hogs?

I'll take a chicken ranch upwind over a hog farm upwind any day!

 

[smokemaker]

Yes, I have been around free roaming longhorns, and found them much more laid back than bison. There's a guy about ten miles from me with beefalo, a cross of cow and bison. He still keeps reasonable distance from them, not carrying on in the pen with them. Point being made is bison are not just big cows, I don't care how tame they appear. Even half bison.

 

[striker3]

I've seen a free-roaming Brahma seriously dent up a pickup. Heck, when I was five, I was on a pony and a bull, who was big enough to look me in the eye, chased me for a quarter of a mile. I had to ride back to the corralls so that the cowboys there could rope him becausing he wasn't stopping.

So there are some forms of cattle that are aggressive. But if your standard is a Holstein or an Angus. Then I agree they are wimps.