Should a American Citizen, With No Legal Disqualifications, Be Able to Board a Bus,Train, Subway or Plane with a Firearm?

[IJ1981]

In Miami Dade County, Florida, concealed carry is permitted on County buses and Metro Rail Transit. Its cool.

These can be dangerous areas, particularly at night.

 

[IJ1981]

I forget to mention that CCW holders can also carry concealed on Tri-Rail from Miami to West Palm Beach and return.

A very pleasant 65 mile trip. Do it!

 

[Miami_JBT]

I forget to mention that CCW holders can also carry concealed on Tri-Rail from Miami to West Palm Beach and return.

A very pleasant 65 mile trip. Do it!

Same with Brightline too.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

According to the Jacksonville SO, you CAN carry concealed without a permit on public transport within Florida or anyplace a CCW can carry, so long as you meet the criteria for CCW. https://www.jaxsheriff.org/Resources/PermitlessCarry.aspx Also echoed here... https://www.pnj.com/story/news/loca...starts-july-1-here-are-the-rules/70369342007/

Nothing in the bill negates public transpo. https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2023/543

Tri-Rail claims concealed carry on their trains is illegal under Florida 790.01, 790.053 and 790.06, but having a permit is an exception to the law. Their posting appears to be out of date with the current law as 790.01 does not disallow carry on public transport.
790.053 does not allow open carry of firearms anywhere
790.06 is just the basic rules for CCW and does not list public transport as being off limits.

Privately owned public transport still can restrict carry, however. For example, Brightline's policy is LEO-only for firearms.

Terms of Service | Brightline

www.gobrightline.com

 

[usaral63]

Double, open is permitted hunting/fishing/camping and going to or from..........and does NOT exclude the public trans. mode.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Double, open is permitted hunting/fishing/camping and going to or from..........and does NOT exclude the public trans. mode.

Good catch. Thanks for the clarification. I should have realized that. I have seen several videos of auditors doing that very thing in Florida (usually being stopped while walking on a beach or transiting to it on foot. Still more of carry being legal on said transportation in Florida. I have checked a bunch of states and am still not finding which ones allow concealed carry and/or Constitutional carry, but don't allow on public transportation within the state.

 

[230RN]

Voted yes. An armed bus rider is a polite bus rider.

 

[wayneinFL]

According to the Jacksonville SO, you CAN carry concealed without a permit on public transport within Florida or anyplace a CCW can carry, so long as you meet the criteria for CCW. https://www.jaxsheriff.org/Resources/PermitlessCarry.aspx Also echoed here... https://www.pnj.com/story/news/local/2023/06/29/florida-concealed-carry-law-starts-july-1-here-are-the-rules/70369

Privately owned public transport still can restrict carry, however. For example, Brightline's policy is LEO-only for firearms.

Terms of Service | Brightline

www.gobrightline.com

Wow. Reading Brightline's policy they don't allow any sharp objects, not in carry-on or checked baggage or even into the terminal. One more reason not to use it.

 

[crstrode]

According to the Constitution of the United States they should.

Not according to Jay Inslee and his protégé, Bob Ferguson.

 

[230RN]

Not according to Jay Inslee and his protégé, Bob Ferguson.

Y' know what we need? We need more DAs, Legislators, Judges, and High Goobermink Officials who can understand simple English.

That's what we need.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Voted yes. An armed bus rider is a polite bus rider.

I hope that is sarcasm. Otherwise, being armed, on a bus, or armed and on a bus has nothing to do with being polite. We would like for that to be the case, but it isn't. That paraphrased Heinlein quote from his dystopian novel Beyond This Horizon does not mean what you think it means as it is incomplete. Heinlein said, What does that mean?

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”​

Well, in the book, even the most simply transgressions were okay to be settled by duels. You bump into somebody and don't say that you are sorry and they are offended, then they could legally challenge you to a duel with firearms. So you could literally end up dead because you didn't say you were sorry - you weren't polite. Is that what you mean by an armed bus rider is a polite bus rider? So they are all polite? Definitely not.

DeKalb man fatally shot while on Greyhound bus traveling along I-10, officials say

A 25-year-old Georgia man has died after authorities said he was shot and killed on a Greyhound bus.

www.wsbtv.com

Surveillance video captures fatal shooting after argument on SEPTA bus

Video from onboard a SEPTA bus shows two men in an apparent argument that turned physical before a suspect stepped off the bus, produced a handgun, and fatally shot another man.

www.fox29.com

Texas elementary student fires gun on school bus on the way to school

Police say an elementary school student fired a gun in the back of a seat as students rode to school in the city of Seguin. While no one as hurt, the incident caused alarm and is now raising some serious questions.

www.kwtx.com

Nice Florida example... https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/suspect-arrested-in-shooting-on-miami-dade-bus/

Gunman dead after hijacking DART bus, leading authorities on chase from Richardson to Rockwall

Three officers were wounded after a gunman hijacked a DART bus Sunday morning in Richardson, prompting a chase that stretched across several cities in North...

www.dallasnews.com

Fifth-grader shot on school bus claims another student did it

Fifth grader shot on school bus claims another student did it.

www.wlbt.com

Sometimes armed passengers are so impolite as to being mass shooters on busses https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/03/us/california-greyhound-bus-shooting/index.html
Florida bus mass shooting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-gqM5m0d8A
This man was rude on 2 busses before police took him down. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gunman-dies-after-barging-into-seattle-bus-shoots-driver/

 

[GEM]

The Heinlein quote is taking out of context from the book. In the book, that society is a genetic tyranny where people with the correct breeding are on top. Your genetic type is tattooed on you. The hero, a genetic star, is frustrated with the dueling codes and is contemplating giving up carry. If you do, you have to wear a brassard on your arm, saying you can't be challenged but you are treated like trash by young studs. The hero is convinced to keep carrying to uphold the genetic tyranny. He falls in love but is his mate genetically acceptable - a major plot point. An interesting aspect is that he carried a 1911 replica as compared to a ray gun. The ray gun was a nice dueling gun as it made a nice clean cauterized small hole, so survival was high. Head shots seem not to be encouraged. His opponents were shocked by getting hit by hardball - rather messy. It is not clear then if the quote is a society we want if it is extended as that one did to dueling.

To the question on the OP, I thought I wouldn't get into it but - the simplistic rants got to me. There are special circumstances. No one seems to be championing carrying in the MRI room - which consistently causes some idiot's gun to go off, shooting themselves where they seem to keep their brains.

The commercial airline is also a special circumstance.
1. You have no chance to flee
2. There is no chance of help getting to you
3. If things go wrong with the plane at altitude, you die. Yes, a round won't blow up the plane, but lots of rounds might damage controls. People have been sucked out of windows and door.
4. If there is no control - it will be easy for 4 American citizens who are nuts or terrorists, to come on board with a Glock 17 and 4 mags on their belts - easy to conceal. They could then murder tens of people - of course, unless you jump up with your J frame as 5 is enough. Note these folks will not be deterred by the thought of your J frame.

The armed pilot can defend the cockpit. The marshal can probably be effective against the box cutter crew. But allowing civilian carry on airliners is a mistake despite absolutists views. How absolutist do you want to be?

 

[plainsdrifter]

People can't just exit a plane or train, train can't stop fast enough quickly enough if there is and gun play going on so I say no.
Protecting the public does not mean your rights are violated. You can go drive your car. You have options.

Also protecting our government leaders from dumbasses takes precedent over your rights. Keep the .gov buildings safe. Betcha can't just walk on an army base with a gun. lol

 

[230RN]

I hope that is sarcasm. Otherwise, being armed, on a bus, or armed and on a bus has nothing to do with being polite. We would like for that to be the case, but it isn't. That paraphrased Heinlein quote from his dystopian novel Beyond This Horizon does not mean what you think it means as it is incomplete. Heinlein said, What does that mean?

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”​

Well, in the book, even the most simply transgressions were okay to be settled by duels. You bump into somebody and don't say that you are sorry and they are offended, then they could legally challenge you to a duel with firearms. So you could literally end up dead because you didn't say you were sorry - you weren't polite. Is that what you mean by an armed bus rider is a polite bus rider? So they are all polite? Definitely not.

DeKalb man fatally shot while on Greyhound bus traveling along I-10, officials say

A 25-year-old Georgia man has died after authorities said he was shot and killed on a Greyhound bus.

www.wsbtv.com

Surveillance video captures fatal shooting after argument on SEPTA bus

Video from onboard a SEPTA bus shows two men in an apparent argument that turned physical before a suspect stepped off the bus, produced a handgun, and fatally shot another man.

www.fox29.com

Texas elementary student fires gun on school bus on the way to school

Police say an elementary school student fired a gun in the back of a seat as students rode to school in the city of Seguin. While no one as hurt, the incident caused alarm and is now raising some serious questions.

www.kwtx.com

Nice Florida example... https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/suspect-arrested-in-shooting-on-miami-dade-bus/

Gunman dead after hijacking DART bus, leading authorities on chase from Richardson to Rockwall

Three officers were wounded after a gunman hijacked a DART bus Sunday morning in Richardson, prompting a chase that stretched across several cities in North...

www.dallasnews.com

Fifth-grader shot on school bus claims another student did it

Fifth grader shot on school bus claims another student did it.

www.wlbt.com

Sometimes armed passengers are so impolite as to being mass shooters on busses https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/03/us/california-greyhound-bus-shooting/index.html
Florida bus mass shooting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-gqM5m0d8A
This man was rude on 2 busses before police took him down. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gunman-dies-after-barging-into-seattle-bus-shoots-driver/

I'm well aware of the full quote and IIRC,one of the most pointed incidents in that book that I remember was when two of them, one armed with a modern (for then) energy arm, the other with a .45ACP 1911, a gross antique by the then-standards, wanted to test their mettle.

This test was to shoot at an innocent vase (IIRC), and the BOOM of the .45 so startled the other "duelist" that he never fired anyway.

To be sure, if everybody were free to be armed, there would be instances of both impromptu and formal "duels."

My contention, stated allegorically in that post, was that if everyone on the allegorical bus was armed, there would be fewer and fewer impromptu or formal "duels" as time went on. I have frivolously called this the "Billy The Kid" theory of firearms ownership. Billy the kid killed about seven people by the time he was about 22, and then stopped by virtue of the fact that he was shot to death.

Surely, innocents would be killed, but in the long run, the inherent truth of the statement "An armed society is a polite society " would become evident as the hotheads and thieves and rapists were weeded out by natural principles.

Terry, "Darwinite to the core," 230RN

 

[Boattale]

Hard no based on the people I see open carrying around here. Do not want to be in any confined area with any of them.

 

[Kleanbore]

I can think of few ideas worse than having armed civilian passengers on a commercial airplane flight.

 

[rb288]

Theoretically, yes.
Realistically, there is no way to know if someone has the legal ability to carry.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

My contention, stated allegorically in that post, was that if everyone on the allegorical bus was armed, there would be fewer and fewer impromptu or formal "duels" as time went on.

I think if everybody thought logically and with equal values, your concept would work, but in the real world, they don't and so the theory likely won't. As you said, it is a theory.

Everybody in road rage incidents is armed with a vehicle, but road rage isn't going away and lots of drivers are not polite. What is funny about the comparison with road rage is that in road rage, people in smaller vehicles will often take on people in larger vehicles, so even an obvious disparity of force does not dissuade them from being impolite or even violent.

Following with your tag line, I suspect it might be more Darwinian than Emily Post if we ever get to a point where everybody is actually armed.

 

[230RN]

I think if everybody thought logically and with equal values, your concept would work, but in the real world, they don't and so the theory likely won't. As you said, it is a theory.
...

That's not the starting situation. That's the resulting situation under the Billy the Kid (Darwinian) theory.

And it's possible the theory has been tested already . I suspect without proof that the "Wild wild West." where "everybody" had a six-shooter or two, was only "wild" because dime novel writers characterized it that way. "If it bleeds, it leads" pertained even then.

Imagine: "The Handshaking At The OK Corral."

Oh, oh, or maybe "The Suit And Counter-Suit At The OK Corral."

Salable?

Terry, 230RN

 

[CapnMac]

The commercial airline is also a special circumstance.
1. You have no chance to flee
2. There is no chance of help getting to you
3. If things go wrong with the plane at altitude, you die. Yes, a round won't blow up the plane, but lots of rounds might damage controls. People have been sucked out of windows and door.
4. If there is no control - it will be easy for 4 American citizens who are nuts or terrorists, to come on board with a Glock 17 and 4 mags on their belts - easy to conceal. They could then murder tens of people - of course, unless you jump up with your J frame as 5 is enough. Note these folks will not be deterred by the thought of your J frame.

This is a cogent and considered examination of the portion of travel which is jetway-to-jetway.

Modern air travel has been reduced to being jammed in tighter than the choir loft on Easter Sunday surrounded by self-absorbed oxygen thieves with not more situational awareness than the screen twelve inches in front of them.

The problem, as I see it, is while you are standing around, surrounded by your valuables, on the very public curb, waiting for that shuttle bus to take you to the rental car area. And, then as you amble about on what may amount to nothing more than a day trip. Before repeating the process in reverse.

Checking a bag just to have one's EDC, especially for one-day business travel has its own issues.

In a sensible universe, there would be a version of a Sally Port with lock boxes for one's EDC to put way on boarding the equipment, and to collect on "deplaning."

This, sadly, is not a sensible world, and seems unlikely to become one in the foreseeable future.

There's probably no way to not have this remain a point of friction between the "gun community" and the rest of the world.

 

[Miami_JBT]

People can't just exit a plane or train, train can't stop fast enough quickly enough if there is and gun play going on so I say no.
Protecting the public does not mean your rights are violated. You can go drive your car. You have options.

Also protecting our government leaders from dumbasses takes precedent over your rights. Keep the .gov buildings safe. Betcha can't just walk on an army base with a gun. lol

No, no it does not.

We do not have royalty nor classes of nobility. I and millions of other Floridians are able to carry in thr State Capitol, meet with the Governor and other lawmakers, and not be disarmed.

 

[kwguy]

Maybe have a protocol for carry on a plane, such as magazines removed, or some type of “amnesty collection point” in the cabin as you board and deplane or something?

I remember transporting foreign soldiers, some of which had a propensity for possibly yelling a certain phrase, right before attacking their so called “allies” (us), or blowing themselves up in the aircraft. So we installed “amnesty lockers” in the aircraft into which they put their weapons. It was locked, and the stuff given back after the flight.

Another point to ponder:

While I understand the whole “my house my rules” or private property concept of having weapons on someone’s property, I wonder how far that actually carries. Does that apply to other Constitutional rights as well when on someone’s private property?

 

[plainsdrifter]

No, no it does not.

We do not have royalty nor classes of nobility. I and millions of other Floridians are able to carry in thr State Capitol, meet with the Governor and other lawmakers, and not be disarmed.

So I can go visit POTUS and SCOTUS armed, locked and loaded? Your Governor's office? I seriously doubt that. Proof please.

 

[Miami_JBT]

So I can go visit POTUS and SCOTUS armed, locked and loaded? Your Governor's office? I seriously doubt that. Proof please.

Been legal to carry in the Capitol for over a decade now.

Policy allowing guns in Florida Capitol worries some state employees

Capitol staffers who deal with the public are clearly concerned about their safety after a new law went into effect Oct. 1 allowing anyone with a concealed weapons permit to legally bring a gun into …

www.palmbeachpost.com

Florida’s Capitol allows some to carry guns, even amid security threat

Florida has 2.2 million people who have permits to carry guns. They can walk armed under the Rotunda, roam the corridors, visit lawmakers’ offices or visit the 22nd-floor observation deck.

www.tampabay.com

I worked protective operations for prior Governors in FL as a LEO and worked at the FL Capitol too. The public frequently is armed at the FL Capitol. It is not a gun-free zones even though FDLE makes it appear as such with their wording on their website. But then on the bottom they say folks can carry.

Private citizens with a valid concealed weapons permit will be allowed on the Capitol Complex per Florida Law.

Prohibited Items

www.fdle.state.fl.us

FDLE's website is out of date. We no longer need permits to carry.

I personally have been armed as a private citizen while meeting with lawmakers and the Governor.

 

[Kleanbore]

Folks, we have departed from the subject.