Should Illegal Immigrants Be allowed RKBA?

[ArmedBear]

Illegal aliens should have the same human rights as everyone else.

If self-defense is a human right, as I believe it is, then they have that right. They have the right to free speech, too, as well as due process, etc.

And they have the right to be deported, if that's our policy as a nation. Just because someone can be -- or is being -- deported doesn't mean he/she is no longer a human being with human rights.

They don't have the right to use a gun against a cop acting in a legal manner; neither do you nor I. But anyone, anywhere has the right to use a gun to defend him/herself legitimately.

 

[Low-Sci]

I'm in agreement with ArmedBear. If you truly believe that self-defense is a natural human right, then there's no question that illegal immigrants have the same right. Maybe we won't recognize it, and they are still of course breaking the laws of the land, but their right exists whether it is recognized or not.

As I've said before, the laws of our nation of course overrule those natural rights that we have all the time. An illegal immigrant has human rights, difficult as that may be to accept, but obviously he can't count on those rights being recognized when he breaks the rules.

So as a matter of reality and legal procedure, laws trump human rights. But philosophically, human rights trump every law ever written, even ours.

 

[Biker]

I really don't understand where a "natural human right" comes from. Neither nature nor whichever God you choose gives anything resembling such a right at birth. It is earned as life progresses.
Not trying to be contrary or difficult, but a noble sounding cliche' is just that - a cliche'.

Biker

 

[pilot teacher]

Absolutely and unequivacally not. All we need is a few of these guys commit a felon and that gives the anti's more ammo to ban guns. No No No!
Also, do they want us to reload for them as well?

 

[longeyes]

If self-defense is a human right, as I believe it is, then they have that right. They have the right to free speech, too, as well as due process, etc.

Careful, you'll be sounding like Kofi Annan before you know it. Natural human rights sound suspiciously like globalist entitlements. The trouble is, you think having the means to defend yourself is a natural right, the next guy thinks it's his right to bill you for his health care and live in a "gun-free zone."

Everything is negotiated on the basis of power. Everything.

 

[longeyes]

Illegal aliens should have the same human rights as everyone else.

Which come first, the rights or the guns? I'll wager the latter.

 

[kludge]

Biker wrote:I really don't understand where a "natural human right" comes from. Neither nature nor whichever God you choose gives anything resembling such a right at birth. It is earned as life progresses.
Not trying to be contrary or difficult, but a noble sounding cliche' is just that - a cliche'.

Biker

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 

[Biker]

Fair enough kludge, but as was mentioned before, where was God before 1776 and to reiterate my own point, what part of "We the People of the United States" aren't you getting?

Biker

 

[JerryM]

NO to illegals having RKBA.
Jerry

 

[308win]

No. They are here illegally and don't (shouldn't) have any rights except the right to be deported with all deliberate haste.

 

[progunner1957]

BATFED

Owning a ***** is also a felony in some jurisdictions.

NEW BUMPER STICKER: "When dildos are outlawed, only the government will have dildos."

This will add a huge burden to the already overworked BATFE; they will become the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, Explosives & Dildos.

Or will dildos fall under the jurisdiction of Homeland Security?

Or maybe a global ***** control initiative is what we need, under the auspices of the UN, IANSA and Rebecca Peters.

The possibilities for humor on this one are truly endless...

 

[Destructo6]

I really don't understand where a "natural human right" comes from. Neither nature nor whichever God you choose gives anything resembling such a right at birth. It is earned as life progresses.
Not trying to be contrary or difficult, but a noble sounding cliche' is just that - a cliche'.

Read John Locke's Second Treatise of Civil Government, specifically Chapter II.

 

[longeyes]

NEW BUMPER STICKER: "When dildos are outlawed, only the government will have dildos."

This will add a huge burden to the already overworked BATFE; they will become the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, Explosives & Dildos.

Or will dildos fall under the jurisdiction of Homeland Security?

Or maybe a global ***** control initiative is what we need, under the auspices of the UN, IANSA and Rebecca Peters.

The possibilities for humor on this one are truly endless...

There's already a movie about this called THE LAST OF THE BOHICANS.

 

[Low-Sci]

I think this thread is starting to loop, there's not much new information being put into it.

Some people think no, and won't be swayed, others think yes, and won't be swayed. Still others declare most vehemently "maybe."

It really looks to me that what people are more contentious about is illegal immigration much more than whether an immigrant has a right to be armed.

Where was God before 1776? Doesn't really matter. What does matter is how you look at the American Revolution. If you see it as one group of people creating a new country with brand new rights for people, or you see it as one group of people wresting the rights that were violated since ancient times and creating a government that would honor them.

If you see it as the former, then Americans just dreamed up the idea that people had the right to be armed, but we know that's not the case. Owning weapons has been called a responsibilty and a right on and off throughout history long before Americans took the stage. But, in this scenario, I can tell you exactly where God was. He was entirely too busy ensuring that his power flowed directly to the kings and queens of europe to be worried about the rights of the peasants.

What I see in the American revolution was a group of people who finally had the opportunity to take the rights that had been denied to them since, well, nearly forever because kings and queens thought they were ordained by God. They were born with the rights, and instantly stripped of them by a tyrannical government, and it happened that way for hundreds of generations. And after thousands of years of this abuse, on and off, a very small group of people had an extremely rare chance at freeing themselves of this abuse, and even more remarkably, made it actually work out.

And I have to be honest, saying that you only get the rights you earn seems like you may as well cheer the immigrants on. Tell them they can have the right if they earn it. I promise they won't earn it the way you want them to.

 

[ccwolff]

Yes

What the government gives the government can take away.

I believe my right for an effective means of self defence comes from something other than from the government.

1776 finally corrected a gross human injustice by reconizing that humans have rights by the mere fact that we exist.
Our government was created arround that idea, the government does not give anyone any rights, and despite what the government (Read majority of people) thinks the government does not have the authority to deny them.

I will agree that people who infringe on the rights of others (murder,theft,rape and the like) deserve to have no rights, and the same goes for the government.

I do not and can not see how being in this country with out proper documentation is a offence that warrents taking away human rights.

 

[TC-TX]

Do you think that illegal immigrants be able to purchase guns in the USA?

NO - they are ILLEGAL and FELONS.

 

[Fosbery]

Didn't we establish some time ago that they're not actually felons, sicne illegal immigration is a misdemeaner, and they have not been convicted of it anyway.

If you believe self-defence is a natural human right that everyone should have regardless of nationality, race, creed, colour, sex etc, then you should presumably think they do have the right.

If you believe self-defence is a right that only applies to certain people in certain countries, then you could think either way I suppose.

So the question really is: should everyone have the right to RKBA?

I say yes, a full fledged US citizen is no 'better' than a German man or a Brazillian man or an Indian man or a South African man or an Australian man...we're all the same, we all deserve the same basic human rights.

 

[Optical Serenity]

I agree with those who said No they should not be allowed RKBA. If they want rights, stay in their own country where they are not illegals.

 

[PCGS65]

Of course they should. We(the government)give them everything else!
IMO of ing course not!! Shouldn't even be here. But that controversy will go on forever, the "they do the jobs we don't" bull you know.

 

[longeyes]

They just want the guns we can't have.

 

[longeyes]

Illegal aliens may have a right to be armed.

But not HERE.

Not in OUR country, not in a country in which they reside illegally, to which they were not invited and whose laws they have already broken.

Appealing to metaphysics to circumvent the blatantly obvious rules of our social compact is to insult not only the law but all American citizens.

Retroactively applying metaphysical insights to all periods prior to the discovery of the philosophical principles in question is an interesting intellectual exercise but says nothing about history. The Right to Keep & Bear Arms, as we know and understand it, arose with the Founding Fathers, and whether they invented it or discovered it isn't the issue. The issue is that it is an integral part of their vision and our social legacy. It behooves us to preserve this and other bequests with all the vigor we can muster, while we can.

 

[ccwolff]

I don't understand why we can't respect human rights AND still presreve what is America.

Are those two things mutually exclusive?

Again the government grants no rights, only restricts them.

The frist 10 amendments were the most important rights that the founding fathers felt needed to be explictly stated that the government was not allowed to unjustly restrict.

But,even if it was a felony to be in this county illegally, this still is America where you are presumed to be innocent until proven guilty and not the other way arround......Right?

 

[longeyes]

This is not about government being the font of rights, it is about the social compact. If government said nothing about RKBA for illegal aliens, it would still be legitimate for U.S. citizens to reject the idea that people who are not rightful members of our community should have the right to intimidate that community. It is not about whether they have the right to self-defense but whether WE have the right to exercise self-defense against intruders and trespassers.

Unwanted guests do not have the right to tell their hosts what their hospitality obligations are. Many people do not want guests packing in their homes. I think most of us would respect that wish. Surely we aren't saying that uninvited guests, trespassers, have rights inside our home that we do not give them.

 

[Low-Sci]

Well take insult to it if you like, but you'll just be giving yourself one more thing to get bent out of shape about.

What I've been saying is that they do, unequivocally, have the right. They're human beings, they do have the right to be armed just like everyone else. I'm saying as a matter of principle that all humans everywhere have the right to be armed.

Now just because they have that right doesn't mean we will or should recognize it in our country. They have the right, even and especially here, but whether we recognize it or not is a totally different question, and one that most of the people who are saying "no" to the question are considering as the only question.

And as far as need goes, an illegal immigrant with a family is much more likely to need a weapon than I am. He's the one living in the sh*tty neighborhoods making less than minimum wage.

And aside from that, an illegal immigrant, apparently, is not a felon, because what they've done is a misdemeanor. So they haven't exactly lost RKBA because to do that, you'd need to commit a felony. On the other hand, they don't fall under the protection of the constitution as far as RKBA goes, that I recognize.

Then there's the matter of the purchase itself. You'd need a valid driver's license for most things, unless its a private sale. If its a private sale, all bets are off. You also need to be a citizen. So legally, an illegal immigrant can't buy a gun from a dealer without faking or stealing an identity, which is a felony.

But I'd be more than willing to bet that illegal immigrants don't go to gun shops to get their guns. That's stupid, it puts them on the radar. They get them through private sales, which is so much easier its not even funny. Prove you're 18, and you got yourself a shotgun, sonny. A little more effort to find a shady guy at a gun show who'll just give you the gun without the wait, and you got a handgun. Then you disappear before he finds out that your paperwork and ID are fake.

So if you don't want illegal immigrants carrying guns in the US, seems like the best thing you can do is not sell them to one.

 

[308win]

And as far as need goes, an illegal immigrant with a family is much more likely to need a weapon than I am. He's the one living in the sh*tty neighborhoods making less than minimum wage.

Well, Boo Hoo. If he wants rights let him go back to where ever he/she isn't an illegal and take the rights available or change the rules of the game there to get the rights he/she believes he/she deserves.