Should Illegal Immigrants Be allowed RKBA?
- Thread starter Matt King
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Fletchette
Member
Ok, let me try a different tact: why?
Why make gun possession for illegal immigrants a crime?
Scenario 1: gun possession is indeed a right - illegal immigrant is caught with a gun, a book and a Star of David. Said illegal immigrant is arrested and tried for "illegal immigration" and found guilty. Said illegal immigrant is deported.
Scenario 2: gun possession is a privilege of U.S. citizens (in good standing with the Crown, er, govenrment)- illegal immigrant is caught with a gun, a book and a Star of David. Said illegal immigrant is arrested for gun possession and illegal immigration, tried and convicted. Said illegal immigrant is *doubley* deported?
There is no reason to make possession of arms a crime, period. I understand the frustration and agree that illegal immigration is indeed a huge threat to our nation. We can solve the problem by securing the border and enforcing illegal immigration laws. We exacerbate our problems when we add asinine laws to the mix that do nothing but compromise our rights in the long run.
Turnabout - why not make sneaker possession, or book possession, by illegal immigrants a crime?
Why make gun possession for illegal immigrants a crime?
Scenario 1: gun possession is indeed a right - illegal immigrant is caught with a gun, a book and a Star of David. Said illegal immigrant is arrested and tried for "illegal immigration" and found guilty. Said illegal immigrant is deported.
Scenario 2: gun possession is a privilege of U.S. citizens (in good standing with the Crown, er, govenrment)- illegal immigrant is caught with a gun, a book and a Star of David. Said illegal immigrant is arrested for gun possession and illegal immigration, tried and convicted. Said illegal immigrant is *doubley* deported?
There is no reason to make possession of arms a crime, period. I understand the frustration and agree that illegal immigration is indeed a huge threat to our nation. We can solve the problem by securing the border and enforcing illegal immigration laws. We exacerbate our problems when we add asinine laws to the mix that do nothing but compromise our rights in the long run.
Turnabout - why not make sneaker possession, or book possession, by illegal immigrants a crime?
Gordon Fink
Member
longeyes said:
Because I don’t consider immigration to be a crime. All other things being equal, it harms no one. I am also disinclined to sacrifice my rights just so that you don’t have to put up with people who may look and sound funny.
That said, as long as we suffer from a hostile and labyrinthine legal-immigration system, we will be unable to effectively control our precious borders or keep out the terrorists and other real criminals.
~G. Fink
Gordon Fink
Member
longeyes said:
These folks might have disagreed with you, especially on that last bit.
~G. Fink
cuchulainn
Member
He wouldn't be deported, but sent to prison instead.
Gordon Fink
Member
So we can spend even more money on him? :banghead:
~G. Fink
~G. Fink
cuchulainn
Member
Valid point. Though your head-knocky guy implies you think I'm actually proposing this. I'm simply discussing the what-ifs. Fletchette implied that our only option would be to *doubly* deport him. That's not true. Along those lines, our punishment options need not be limited to prison.
Gordon Fink
Member
Fair enough. Edited into a question. 
~G. Fink
~G. Fink
Destructo6
Member
Possession of a firearm by an illegal alien is a crime under 922g. Voting in US elections is also a crime for illegal aliens: want to debate that?
Fletchette
Member
Sure. Just because a law is passed does not mean that said law is Constitutional. 922g may be one of those laws.
Voting is a right, so an illegal immigrant has the right to vote...in his own country! He may even vote in this country via absentee ballot (still for a candidate in his own country).
cuchulainn
Member
Voting is not a natural right because government and nations are not natural states of being. The right to vote exists only within the contruct of a nation.
The right to possess arms is a natural and universal right that exists outside the construct of a nation.
The right to possess arms is a natural and universal right that exists outside the construct of a nation.
Fletchette
Member
Check mate.
An illegal immigrant has the natural and universal right to possess arms outside the construct of his nation.
cuchulainn
Member
But maybe not within the construct of our nation. The RKBA may apply to him, but the 2nd might not. The 2nd and the RKBA aren't the same thing, though obviously related.
Also, it is reasonable to say that a sovereign nation has the rightful power to disarm an invading group. Thus my still unanswered question: Should we treat illegal aliens as part of an invading group (and disarm them) or as individuals (and respect their RKBA)?
I see both sides and remain unconvinced either way.
cuchulainn
Member
I'd also add that it is possible to take actions by which you forfeit natural and universal rights.
The right to self defense is based on this concept of action=forfeiture (of the right to live).
The obvious next question is whether illegal immigration rises to that level regarding guns. Once again, the answer comes down to the rightful powers of a sovereign state regarding an invasion and the question of whether this is a group action or individual actions made en masse.
The right to self defense is based on this concept of action=forfeiture (of the right to live).
The obvious next question is whether illegal immigration rises to that level regarding guns. Once again, the answer comes down to the rightful powers of a sovereign state regarding an invasion and the question of whether this is a group action or individual actions made en masse.
Fletchette
Member
Non sequitur. An illegal immigrant must be both within our country and outside of his country by definition.
If I understand you correctly, if we view an immigrant is merely an individual, then they definitely have a RKBA. I agree.
If we view an illegal immigrant as part of a group, conspiring to invade the U.S. and do us harm, then we need to officially recognize that. The Constitution provides for this official recognition: a Declaration of War. If we are indeed in a state of war, then we can capture and disarm these invaders. But we must legally recognize them as invaders first.
cuchulainn
Member
My point is that his universal RKBA might not be protected within the construct of our nation -- he may not be protected by the 2nd. There is no case law on whether the 2nd applies to non-citizens. It's a debatable point (see the first few pages of this thread).
Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution gives Congress the power to "To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions". Reacting to an invasion does not require a declaration of war -- that's covered in a separate part of Section 8.
Article I, Section 8 also gives Congress the power "To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization' -- which arguably gives it the power to ban guns to illegals unless the 2nd applies to non-citizens.
crazed_ss
Member
You cant be serious.
Since when have passing more gun laws stopped people from obtaining guns?
As it stands now, Illegals are already barred from having guns arent they? How much do you want to bet there's a bunch of pistolas in the hands of illegals anyway..
longeyes
member
All other things being equal? Well, other things ain't equal, my friend.
And by the way, some of those people "who may look and sound funny" are part of my extended family. This is about sovereignty, the rule of law, values. Get off your high horse.
longeyes
member
Cute picture. Now deal the cards, Fink.
Fink...
Regarding your comment concerning my chacterization of illegals as vermin and you referring to me as a bigot:
These illegals are by their very nature parasites and by definition vermin.
You got a problem with that, it's not mine and it's only your's if you make it one.
Biker
Regarding your comment concerning my chacterization of illegals as vermin and you referring to me as a bigot:
These illegals are by their very nature parasites and by definition vermin.
You got a problem with that, it's not mine and it's only your's if you make it one.
Biker
cuchulainn
Member
That's why I wrote, "I'm not saying that would be a good (or effective) law"
bg
Member
Illegal immigrantion shouldn't be allowed nor tolerated at all !
KenpoProfessor
Member
Well
I gotta say, between Biker and Longeyes, they've pretty much summed it up for me.
RKBA, is a US citizen's right, not an illegal invaders right, as all of the BOR is for US Citizens alone. They want protection, go to their own country and get it, they are not entitled to be protected in any way here in the US, nor do they share the rights or privleges (ie. DL's, Medical, etc.) of US citizens period. If someone breaks into their home, oh well, they don't have the RIGHT to live here illegally, so anything that happens to them is null and void and should have no protection in the eyes of the law. They took their chance coming over ILLEGALLY, then they must face the consequences of their actions.
Drive down Magnolia Ave between Byron and Grant here in Riverside CA sometime, it looks like TJ, why, because the VERMIN (thank you Biker) are squatting on the streets, while the police do nothing. I drive by every morning to see these nests of illegals and nothing is being done, and I want to know why. I also wonder if they have guns, purchased legally or illegally, because here in CA, we don't have shall issue CCW. In effect, I have been punished by the state for being a LEGAL citizen.
Have a great Kenpo day
Clyde
I gotta say, between Biker and Longeyes, they've pretty much summed it up for me.
RKBA, is a US citizen's right, not an illegal invaders right, as all of the BOR is for US Citizens alone. They want protection, go to their own country and get it, they are not entitled to be protected in any way here in the US, nor do they share the rights or privleges (ie. DL's, Medical, etc.) of US citizens period. If someone breaks into their home, oh well, they don't have the RIGHT to live here illegally, so anything that happens to them is null and void and should have no protection in the eyes of the law. They took their chance coming over ILLEGALLY, then they must face the consequences of their actions.
Drive down Magnolia Ave between Byron and Grant here in Riverside CA sometime, it looks like TJ, why, because the VERMIN (thank you Biker) are squatting on the streets, while the police do nothing. I drive by every morning to see these nests of illegals and nothing is being done, and I want to know why. I also wonder if they have guns, purchased legally or illegally, because here in CA, we don't have shall issue CCW. In effect, I have been punished by the state for being a LEGAL citizen.
Have a great Kenpo day
Clyde
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