Looking for a reliable SHTF rifle, have no clue what to look for

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Moa refers to the total group size measured is like you said measured from the center of the two furthest shots in a group. The best Ak's I have heard about like Krebs shoot around 3 moa with good ammo. My guns (2 maks, 1 maddi, 1 hungarian, 1 Romanian gun) all shot from 4 to 6 moa. WHen fired prone. The best was the Hungarian gun with a dot sight attached in a scoup mount set up. It averaged 4 inches with Winchester USA ball. In fairness I have never fired the Saige.

My AR's have averaged from .75 moa to 2 moa. The .75 was my Colt 20 inch sporter I used to own and the 2 moa was a skinny barrel 16 inch carbine. My current 6920 averages right at 1 moa with 69 grain Federal Match.

That being said I belive an AK would do fine as a SHTF weapon. YOu don't need long range in that situation. An Ak can be improved greatly with optics. The safety issue is more difficult but its livable. (its a safe weapon I am talking about the slow akward to use safety lever.)
Pat
 
I have made hits on a 300 yrd gong all day with my Saiga .308 and SAR-1. Many others on this board regularly see the same or better results. The blanket statement made based on your experiences doesn't mirror the results of a large population here that chooses to vocalize.
Energy is at least on par with a 'heavy' .223 load and certainly beats a 55gr load at 652 ft/lbs vs. 473 ft/lbs, respectively (I've no idea what standard department issue is). Drop is worse, but that's what adjustable sights and PSOP scopes are for.

GotGlock, most all the advice you have been given is great. Basically, find a rifle that fits you in a cartridge you think you'd be acceptably comfortable relying on in a life-or-death situation. Anything mentioned thus far will do the trick, be it an AR, AK, FAL, M1A, SKS, etc.. Make sure it fits you well.

Then follow the only advice that will matter most, BAUUR.
Buy ammo, use up, repeat.

Mastering yourself and your weapon is what counts. Choice in platform becomes a moot point by comparison.

My 2 cents,

-Spooky
 
I don't doubt you can hit at 300 meters but thats the outside range of the weapon system. Assuming you have a good one that is 3 moa capable you would be getting 9 to 12 inch groups at 300 yards vs 3 to 5 inch gorups with a AR.
Pat
 
355sig, I will definitely grant you that in competent hands the AR will easily outshoot the lesser AKs. And it is more accurate than even the better ones, especially past 300 meters. Before the Saiga, I had only shot Maadis and Mak-90s. I was not a fan of the AK for anything but plinking. I hated the short LOP, and was not impressed with the shoddy condition of the weapons. Outside of the good AKs, I would choose the AR as well.

Assuming you have a good one that is 3 moa capable you would be getting 9 to 12 inch groups at 300 yards vs 3 to 5 inch gorups with a AR.
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But we are talking SHTF here, and 9"-12" still equals hitting a man sized target. I know some folks believe they will engage over 300 yards in a SHTF situation, but that is not what we are talking about. Also, I believe most of us putting forth the AK as a good weapon have stated "300 or less."

If I seriously thought I need a 300+ weapon for SHTF, (And some folks might,) I would look beyond the AK. But at that point I might bypass 5.56 as well in favor of .308 or .30-06. I might pick an .308 AR, though.
 
My Saiga is a 1 MOA rifle. It's in .308 so balistically it's not comparable to the x39 AK we're discussing, but I have shot other Saigas that would at least come close to that. I have read many owners of VEPRs and Arsenals that get similar accuracy. It isn't fair to compare ARs vs. AKs when the ARs discussed are all new factory weapons, usually high end ones, and the AKs used as a basis are cobbled together from a demilled parts kit.

Start with a quality, factory make AK (which still runs less $ than an 'acceptable' AR) and you will not be seeing the 3 MOA you're talking about. The limiting factor of the quality AK is bullet drop at extended ranges (ranges at which I would rather have a precision rifle anyway) due to the x39. Though the 5.56 does not suffer as greatly from this, it has little energy left at those ranges. The midrange cartridges are what they are.

Is the AR a generally more accurate platform? Yes. Is the AK an absolutely and unacceptably inaccurate platform? Not at all.
 
I find that the heavy barrel Yugo makes follow up shots quicker and the felt recoil is much less. The barrel is alos much stiffer. If you are worried about length, get a pistol.
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If your SHTF centers around staying put and sniping and not ever worrying about humping it out to the boonies then a heavier gun may work for you.
Quicker follow up shots with a heavy gun may be nice on a nice p[peaceful day at the range, but humping a too long, too heavy gun for very long in the Fla heat through the Fla brush will negate that advantage very quickly.

Quick follow up shots also do not out weigh maneuverability in a close quarter encounter.

If my only choice was an SKS or a pistol I would probably go with the pistol.
But since out of my 22 long guns the SKS is the longest except for the Mosin and Mauser, with an 03A3 coming in very close ( notice that all of those have been deemed obsolete for standard modern combat applications)
I have many more choices before settling on a handgun
 
Well, getting back to the original question, he asked about a reliable general purpose SHTF rifle. To me this means "a rifle I can use in a variety of situations depending on circumstances". Yes, self defense is important, but so is hunting. So is ease of use and ammo costs. So is weight and the ability to carry the weapon for long periods of time.

I have two safes worth of long arms including M1A, CETME, SU16, SKS, 30-30 lever, .357 lever, K31 swiss, Mosen-nagant, 9mm carbine, and about 2 dozen others including shotguns in 12, 20, 28, and .410. They all have different strengths and weaknesses. The M1A is an amazing rifle but it is heavier, longer, and harder recoiling than the SKS or the SU16 or even the 30-30. And as fabulous as it is for self defense I'd hate to have it be my only rifle if I needed it for subsistance hunting. It would vaporize a rabbit so I could forget about hunting any small game, which I'm much more likely to find and use in a SHTF situation.

As someone early in the thread pointed out, decide what you want to use your weapon for and chose from there. If you want purely self defense applications you're going to pick a different rifle than if you also want to hunt small game or defend against grizzlie bears.

And don't overlook the carbines. A lever .357 or .40 out of an 18" barrel is nothing to sneeze at. Your range is more limited but you do gain carry-ability. Again, another trade off. If you expect longer range human encounters and don't expect to hunt go with a military caliber. If you plan on doing a lot of walking I'd go with .223 since you're more likely to have to carry your entire supply of ammo. If you expect to patrol around a fixed base you can keep supplies at I'd consider .308 since ammo weight wouldn't be as important.

Lots of good suggestions for specific guns in this thread but temper all of them against what you personally expect to do with them.
 
joab

If your SHTF centers around staying put and sniping and not ever worrying about humping it out to the boonies then a heavier gun may work for you.

A Yugo SKS is far lighter than a Garand or a FAL (OK, mabee not a featherweight FAL). If I was "humping it out to the boonies" I want a gun that is built like a tank, but not TOO heavy. The Yugo SKS fits this for me. If SHTF I will probably be gone with my Yougo w/4x scope and my 10/22 (too many goodies to mention). Follow up shots are important, scpecialy if you are hunting or getting rid of a few bad guys. I guess we can agree to disagree.
 
Where are you.?
Location and climate also play into the decision of what equipment you feel is necessary.
What is your expected course of action, also plays a big part in the decision.

Humping around with a 10 pound(guess) excessively long rifle just wouldn't make sense to me in tropical Fla when the temp is 95+ and the humidity is 90+, when the longest game shot you are going to get is probably less than 50 yards and/or through dense underbrush, or hiding in that underbrish

Neither would carrying two rifles, unless you have one of my handy dandy take down backpack .22 rifles
 
SKS - Reliable, cheap, Hard hitting

Be sure to get a chinese, russian, or romanian. Why? Chromed barrels and chambers.

Yugo = No Chrome.

I own 6 SKS's and would pick the Yugo's (3) last in a SHTF.

My #1 is an Albanian shooter grade, it's a tack driver at 100 yds. I can't see any farther than that.
 
OK joab, I see you're point. In North Dakota it's mostly wide open spaces, so longer shots are possible. (One might argue that a 308 would be better.) Plus my SHTF plan includes using my bike w/cargo (Or using my car if possible) carrier because we have lots of gravel roads. So our plans are very different and require different weapons.
 
I love all firearms. There are very few I dislike - and the reason is usually a poor design which leads to poor reliability or function.


I like to gear my firearms around the "mission" I envision.


Around my area, there is NO shot beyond 200 yards. Maybe if I venture towards a larger street, there maybe a shot that goes 400. Of the typical ranges, every realistic shot that would me made would fall between 40-120 yards. Given the area and density where I live.


I don't expect to face armored targets. I don't expect to do anti-material type work. I don't plan on shooting at anything I cannot see (shooting through walls at badguys I think might be behind).


My SHTF scenario will largely be either a natural disaster with total disorder, a terror attack that causes disorder, or civil unrest/rioting/lawlessness/crime.


There's no hunting around these parts. So that means the rifle is meant to be used against humans. I might need to walk or move a lot with it, weight IS a major issue, especially when you might need to carry food/water or other things.

It has to be accurate, reliable, and easy to shoot.


For me, its the AR-15. Which is the perfect urban/suburban weapon imo.


A good AR-15 can EASILY fire a full 1,000 rounds of ammunition without a single cleaning and not malfunction once. It can also take abuse to dirt, rain, or whatever other element. Can you shovel a big lump of sandy wet mud into the action like an AK? No. But when is that going to happen to your gun? We aren't going to be crawling through mudpits, nor in a sandstorm in our use of these weapons. The AR will shoot through any conceivable battle load you will be able to carry. I doubt anyone's going to carry more than 240 rounds.

I love the AK, but I can save 50% of the weight on each magazine. That's more water/food or other things I can carry. Every pound counts. Also the rifle is lighter (I only use super light ARs). For the same weight, I can carry more ammo too. 5lbs of ammo is exactly 5, 30 round magazins for an AR. That's 150 rounds. 5lbs with an AK is going to be half that. I either get less ammo, or I have to carry more weight.


Remember, it's about the mission - not the rifle. If I anticipated being in severe conditions where my weapon WILL get very muddy, sandy, dirty, iced over....I will go with the AK and probably choose to sacrifice ammo down to 3 loaded mags to save weight for other stuff.


Some people will say, what's the big deal with weight, just hump the extra 20lbs or 30lbs. Well, imagine having to march yourself out of the county or area. That could take 3-4 days. You need enough water and food to make it. That weighs you down. I am not a triathlete nor am I a Marine.


If you plan on holding down the fort, and staying and defending your property or home, then weight is not an issue. So use any ammo, any rifle. Heavier the better. Harder hitting the better.
 
Crosshair
I sometimes forget that not everybody lives down the street form me

DTOM just added another aspect to the whole "what is your planned course of action" issue

We are less than 50 miles from each other but have a very different set of circumstances and terrain to deal with

A bike would get to the forest about 10 miles or so down the road but from there it would be worse than useless.

In my case I believe that a short 12 ga would be the best choice ,if I leave the house
 
Keep in mind, (depending on the terrain) that 100-120 yards is not that far. It is almost nothing in an open area.

The last thing you want to be is outgunned by someone with a rifle, when all you have is 00.


I always refer back to my CWP course. People tend to think that a threat is only a threat when they are up close and in your face. This isn't true.



A looter or thug with a rifle or pistol at 110 yards is a life-threatening force. He could luck a shot right into your head at that range. You need to neutralize that threat as quickly as possible, while maintaining a reasonable amount of "standoff" distance.
 
A looter or thug with a rifle or pistol at 110 yards is a life-threatening force. He could luck a shot right into your head at that range. You need to neutralize that threat as quickly as possible, while maintaining a reasonable amount of "standoff" distance.
Click to expand...
I plan on hiding from those people in the woods.

If I stay around the city I have more, longer range options.

My SHTF plan is to avoid contact with others as long as possible,
I'm practicing as much as I can now
 
That's a good idea. I too would avoid detection as much as possible, but I don't have woods around.


It is a scary thought you know. Most thugs are male, from 16-35, and strong or athletic. They are hard core folks who live a life of crime on the street.


Let them be really angry, and really hungry. How fast do you think they can close 120 yards of distace before they get to you? I'd say pretty fast. Less than 20 seconds. They might not detect that you are armed, they might see you as vulnerable.


Now, I am sure they will scatter like cockroaches when hit by lights when the sound of gunfire hits them, but if they are armed and out to get you. You've got problems. Worst would them taking a position 50-70 yards from you and taking pot-shots with their pistols or whatever weapons they have. Random area fire like that can be dangerous. It is like volley fire. You might need high volume fire to keep them down while you retreat.


I would do my best to keep my weapons low and near my body as to avoid being seen as threatening or armed from a distance.


Always avoid confrontation if possible.
 
If something like New Orleans took place, and I needed to scout for water/food which means periodically marching into commercial areas....I run the risk of running into authorities and having my firearm confiscated.


I ought to get some SKS's for this purpose. Being out of $170 is much better than $1,300 for a high-end AR.
 
A looter or thug with a rifle or pistol at 110 yards is a life-threatening force. He could luck a shot right into your head at that range. You need to neutralize that threat as quickly as possible, while maintaining a reasonable amount of "standoff" distance.
END QUOTE

Very true. For example a snub nose 38 in the hands of an expert can be used to hit a person at 100 yards 4 out of 5 times. At least thats how many times Ayoob was able to hit a ISPC target at that range to prove a point in court.
Pat
 
Living in a relatively urban area, SHTF to me really boils down to TEMPORARY relocation to the family farm or and/or TEMPORARY loss of social order. In neither case am I concerned about using my firearms for sustinence or for engagements beyond 100 yards out. On the other hand, portability and commonality and durability and disposability are Good Things <tm>. Run thru the exercise of assembling a BugOutBag or BugInBag with all of your pistol ammo and carbine ammo and foodstuffs and cash and all of the other things that you'll need to keep the family going stuffed in it, and see where the exercise leads you.... It led me to conclude that I didn't have nearly enough room for the firepower that I had previously planned on having. :eek:

My SHTF planning now includes a couple of stone-stupid-simple HiPoint 9mm carbines backed up with 9mm handguns concealed about my person and property. I may or may not partake any of the other SHTF rifles at my disposal (including ARs and SKSs and AKs and shotties), but the 9mm carbine-mit-pistols are going to form the basis of my BOB/BIB. Reasonable form factors and ammo commonality to reduce the loadout are the key drivers to me at this point....
 
Honestly, until I got close to graduating, and started shooting, I had simply not thought about this topic. At all. I used to go to school in a fairly isolated mountain area, I wish I still did. Now I'm in a crime ridden (depending on your source) "up and coming city" and I'm starting to take a hard look at what will happen to me and mine when something unthinkable occurs. The recent hurricanes and subsequent unrest have driven the point home.

At this point, I'm shopping for an AK variant as my next purchase, as I could afford the weapon and accessories (ie lots of ammo) for the price of the AR (college budget), plus I have a .243 bolt gun for long range if necessary.
 
grandpa with a mosin nagant
dad with an AK
me with a yugo SKS

i dare some1 to try and loot our place
living in a place that tends to get hit with lots of hurricanes, a natural disaster/looting would b a the most likely SHTF situation for me.
but all 3 guns would b good for the revolution
 
pauli is right on:your first purchase should be a large coffee pot for the heavy thinking you're gonna be doing.Allow me to recommend 'Urban Alert!' by Mary Ellen Clayton (+/- $10 on Amazon) to go with the coffee.I also second Remington 788:you can get better guns than the Ruger for less money.
My gun suggestions-used Marlin 30-30:+/- $150.Used Mossberg pump shotgun:+/- $150.LOTS of ammo & practice!!!
 
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