Kymasabe
Member
I LOVE Saiga's, have owned a bunch of them (and still do).
But...I voted for the FAL.
But...I voted for the FAL.
Siaga 308 (Converted) or PTR 91 or DSA FAL
- Thread starter Click Click Boom
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waterhouse
Member
For the purposes mentioned, I'd go with the DSA FAL. Mine was bought used and it already had some character, I didn't pay nearly as much as they cost now, and I have no trouble throwing it in the truck.
If I were buying one today, I might not be so willing to beat on it.
I've never warmed up to AKs. I wasn't raised around them and I've never taken any training with them; every time I buy one I end up deciding I don't like it. The Saiga would probably make the most sense for the purposes described and the cost, but I'll stick with my FAL.
ETA: my FAL does not have a folding stock
If I were buying one today, I might not be so willing to beat on it.
I've never warmed up to AKs. I wasn't raised around them and I've never taken any training with them; every time I buy one I end up deciding I don't like it. The Saiga would probably make the most sense for the purposes described and the cost, but I'll stick with my FAL.
ETA: my FAL does not have a folding stock
Click Click Boom
Member
he High Roads opinion is 50%/25%/25%...... I thought it would be a little more balanced with all the AKophiles here.
nalioth
Member
You can't argue with what works.Click Click Boom said:
Both the FAL and G3 design are combat proven around the world.
The Saiga is a commercial offering in .308.
rbernie
Contributing Member
Besides - everyone's a big spender when it's somebody else's money. 
Remember, I think everyone agrees that all three of those are good rifles. I doubt anyone is saying that any of them are bad choices. You've just placed a decent design that has been executed by everyone from skilled gunsmiths to drunken plumbers (the PTR) against a solid design that built its reputation around a completely different round and has required considerable alteration to house the .308 and then been converted by everyone from skilled gunsmiths to drunken plumbers (the Saiga) against a solid design that has been combat tested in that configuration and is executed by the premier US maker of that type of rifle. I'd be shocked if you got a different answer than you did.
Mike
Click Click Boom
Member
Wasnt the FAL rechambered from a smaller brittish round to 7.62 NATO?
Yes, it was, but it was subsequently battle proven with the 7.62x51 cartridge. The AK has never been proven in that chambering. Now having owned a couple of S308's and a couple of FAL's, I'd personally have more faith in the Saigas, but I don't trust their high cap mags to the same extent. It's really a pity that they didn't just design the Saiga to take FAL or G3 mags in the first place. It would be a much better rifle if they had
Right. The FAL design may have been scaled up to 7.62 NATO, but that scaling up happened over 40 years ago, and it has lived its entire adult life as a very durable, reliable 7.62 NATO rifle. This is not the case with the Saiga. Now, 40 years from now, we might all be marvelling about how the 100-year old Kalashnikov design continues to perform well, even with that early-2000s upgrade to 7.62 NATO, but we ain't there yet.
Again, I think they're both good rifles. I just think the FAL is a better one.
Mike
Again, I think they're both good rifles. I just think the FAL is a better one.
Mike
Click Click Boom
Member
The AK acthion has been combat proven in longer actions... 8mm and 7.62x54r.
The Galil was originally designed to be .308/7.62 NATO to replace the FAL, then scaled down to 5.56. Then made in .308 for comercial use and finally made as .308 and used as a DMR rifle for the IDF.
I am a fan of the DSA FAL. I just dont want one as a beater.
The Galil was originally designed to be .308/7.62 NATO to replace the FAL, then scaled down to 5.56. Then made in .308 for comercial use and finally made as .308 and used as a DMR rifle for the IDF.
I am a fan of the DSA FAL. I just dont want one as a beater.
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Because they tend to go all pear shaped if subjected to high pressure. And well that is bad.
Friend of mine that served with the Black Watch, KOSB and Rhodesian SAS tells me he carried a FAL while with the SAS. He says it ran flawlessly in all conditions as long as proper care was taken of the rifle. My frankenFAL is built on a DSA Type 1 upper and it is a fine hunk of metal. FAL all the way.
Right, but how has it been scaled up in the Saiga? Is it done the same way? Are the parts made to the same spec as the Galil? How did the Galil perform in scaled up configuration? Remember, we're talking parts breakage and wear as well as simple function.
Again, I think it is a fine rifle. If I didn't I'm just not sure it will perform as well as a FAL over the long haul. Would I own one? Sure I would. Would I sell my FAL to buy it? No way.
Mike
Tim L
Member
Master Blaster asked
thanks
Tim
Didn't see a response to the question about ammo, and I am now thinking of a big brother for my AR. So, are the 165 and 180gr rounds safe in the FAL and PTR?
thanks
Tim
The Springfield Armory, Inc. SOCOM 16 in a TROY M14 MCS chassis with a custom LAW483
folding butt stock and some 25 round CMI mags would deliver reliability with low maintenance.
I recommend the SOCOM 16 muzzle device kit from SEI. It allows you to use a DC Vortex DC can.
Pictured: 18.0" MK14 with a Sully butt stock and a 20 round mag.
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Man I love those Troy and Sage stocks for the M14 especially with SOCOM or the scout (heck or why not a std). The scout length especially in that setup is IMHO as close to the perfect setup money can buy for modern do it all platform. I wish they were not $700 though
Maybe after my daughter is a little older and I get done with school (again) and get a real job (again) and move out of a state that makes you decide between a pistol grip, a threaded barrel, a flash supressor, a folding/telescopic stock or a grenade launcher (***?) and also let's me have magazines over 10 rounds made after 1994 I will treat myself and get one
Maybe after my daughter is a little older and I get done with school (again) and get a real job (again) and move out of a state that makes you decide between a pistol grip, a threaded barrel, a flash supressor, a folding/telescopic stock or a grenade launcher (***?) and also let's me have magazines over 10 rounds made after 1994 I will treat myself and get one
Hoplophile
Member
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- 238
AK apologist/fan here checking in. But I'm going to say go for the FAL. They have AK reliability and AR-15 accuracy.
Get the saiga, though, too, if you can.
Get the saiga, though, too, if you can.
Click Click Boom
Member
The M1A was not an option... and that is $2500 or more worth of heavy and Ugly....
It was was not excluded and it fits the criteria listed in your original post.
".308 semi auto carbines that are available with a 16" bbl, folding stock & hi cap mags. Reliabilty & Maintainance over MOA."
No worries, there are plenty of cheap, heavy and Ugly rifles for you to choose from ~ good luck to you.
Golden Hound
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The cost is going to be an important issue here. Nobody except the ultra-rich would really want to subject a $1000+ battle rifle to the wear and tear of a truck/ranch gun.
The fact is though that a FAL can be had for only a little more than a converted .308 Saiga. Don't forget that DSA sells an Stg58 which is a FAL in all but name for 1150, which is not a bad deal at all. Still though, I know I would be hesitant to use anything that expensive as a "beater gun" as the OP's criteria seem to suggest.
In my opinion the ultimate "beater gun" is the SKS for its extreme reliability and handiness. Mine is a Yugo with no grenade launcher and the bayonet hardware ground off. It also has a cheap scope on a dust-cover mount with a channel through it to use the iron sights. It has a rugged sling, it's lightweight and low-recoil and I would not hesitate to carry it into an SHTF scenario if I needed to. But lacking a high-capacity mag it falls short of the OP's requirements (and it's not in .308)
Another one of my favorite guns is my SAR-3. The SAR-3 or SAR-8 is an HK91 in all but name - a licensed copy produced by Hellenic Arms of Greece and imported by Springfield in relatively small numbers. There are newer "SAR-8"s around but they are manufactured in the US on cheap aluminum receivers and low quality materials. The original SAR-3 or SAR-8 made in Greece is a different animal entirely. It is identical to the HK91 and somewhat rare. Mine has a PSG-1 pistol grip and a wide fore-end with a bipod. It also had a trigger job on it and an ejection port buffer installed. The ruggedness of this weapon never ceases to amaze me. It is ridiculously simple to take apart, even more so than the SKS or AK, which is saying a lot. It has no gas system. And - despite the endless criticism of the recoil of the G3/HK91/PTR91 rifles that I read on this forum and on others - I find the recoil to be tame and barely more than my SKS's.
However, like the FAL, the G3-pattern rifle is too expensive to be a "beater gun."
The exception is the CETME. These are cheaper - sometimes as little as 600 - but they are said to be of low quality, or at least most of the ones available here which are put together by CENTURY ARMS which has a rather horrible reputation. If you were able to get your hands on a CETME armorer's manual and had a little know-how maybe you could pick up a cheap CETME and fix it up to a greater standard of reliability. In this case, it might be an ideal .308 beater gun. But - I rarely hear positive things about these Iberian devices.
The fact is though that a FAL can be had for only a little more than a converted .308 Saiga. Don't forget that DSA sells an Stg58 which is a FAL in all but name for 1150, which is not a bad deal at all. Still though, I know I would be hesitant to use anything that expensive as a "beater gun" as the OP's criteria seem to suggest.
In my opinion the ultimate "beater gun" is the SKS for its extreme reliability and handiness. Mine is a Yugo with no grenade launcher and the bayonet hardware ground off. It also has a cheap scope on a dust-cover mount with a channel through it to use the iron sights. It has a rugged sling, it's lightweight and low-recoil and I would not hesitate to carry it into an SHTF scenario if I needed to. But lacking a high-capacity mag it falls short of the OP's requirements (and it's not in .308)
Another one of my favorite guns is my SAR-3. The SAR-3 or SAR-8 is an HK91 in all but name - a licensed copy produced by Hellenic Arms of Greece and imported by Springfield in relatively small numbers. There are newer "SAR-8"s around but they are manufactured in the US on cheap aluminum receivers and low quality materials. The original SAR-3 or SAR-8 made in Greece is a different animal entirely. It is identical to the HK91 and somewhat rare. Mine has a PSG-1 pistol grip and a wide fore-end with a bipod. It also had a trigger job on it and an ejection port buffer installed. The ruggedness of this weapon never ceases to amaze me. It is ridiculously simple to take apart, even more so than the SKS or AK, which is saying a lot. It has no gas system. And - despite the endless criticism of the recoil of the G3/HK91/PTR91 rifles that I read on this forum and on others - I find the recoil to be tame and barely more than my SKS's.
However, like the FAL, the G3-pattern rifle is too expensive to be a "beater gun."
The exception is the CETME. These are cheaper - sometimes as little as 600 - but they are said to be of low quality, or at least most of the ones available here which are put together by CENTURY ARMS which has a rather horrible reputation. If you were able to get your hands on a CETME armorer's manual and had a little know-how maybe you could pick up a cheap CETME and fix it up to a greater standard of reliability. In this case, it might be an ideal .308 beater gun. But - I rarely hear positive things about these Iberian devices.
Click Click Boom
Member
I see the CETME rifles for sale for around $600. I have just read so many Century horror stories about there CETME builds. I just cant seem to take the Gamble.
91 +1
For the criteria you mentioned (price aside), the PTR is a great candidate. I've never shot/owned an FAL or a Saiga, and have heard nothing but good things about them. But, FWIW, the HK91's reliability is recognized as superior to even the legendary AK (and the PTR is basically an American made HK91 with a heavy barrel, it's made on original HK tooling). It will eat up anything you run through it, and spit it out every time. With a port buffer the brass/reloading issues are solved. From the users who claim to own boh a PTR and an FAL, they also claim the PTR is slightly more accurate. That surprises me, not because my PTR has lacked in accuracy, it's done very well when I've had it out, just that I've heard of alot of FAL's being sub moa, but that could be just blowing smoke aswell. Then again, I wouldn't put it past the G3 pattern to achieve such a group, with the fancy ammo of tomorrow, even if it was one group out of 7 or 8. Reliability and ruggedness being most important, from what I know I would hold the PTR to be the most reliable, also it has a thick receiver tht while makes it a tad heavy, makes it extremely robust, and the FAL is also heavy from my understanding. It is more than accurate enough for a ranch rifle, I'd be hesitant to throw mine in the back of the truck, but if you did it would be fine in all respects but aesthetically. On an ATV, with any grit or dirt in or on it, it will still go bang. Bear in mind, I have not had any experiance with the other two rifles, so my opinion is rather biased, but I love my PTR dearly and would stand by it through about anything. So, all that said, perhaps for this purpose I would choose the cheaper, also extremely reliable and plenty accurate Saiga, but if everything was ideal and had my pick of the litter, I'd take the PTR-91. It is nothing against the proven FAL platform, but when I made this same decision myself this is the conclusion I arrived at. The FAL jammed in the sand when the Israeli's used it, lead me to wonder what else. I understand that it is a well battle proven platform, but weighing everything I chose and chose well, and my decision has never let me down.
For the criteria you mentioned (price aside), the PTR is a great candidate. I've never shot/owned an FAL or a Saiga, and have heard nothing but good things about them. But, FWIW, the HK91's reliability is recognized as superior to even the legendary AK (and the PTR is basically an American made HK91 with a heavy barrel, it's made on original HK tooling). It will eat up anything you run through it, and spit it out every time. With a port buffer the brass/reloading issues are solved. From the users who claim to own boh a PTR and an FAL, they also claim the PTR is slightly more accurate. That surprises me, not because my PTR has lacked in accuracy, it's done very well when I've had it out, just that I've heard of alot of FAL's being sub moa, but that could be just blowing smoke aswell. Then again, I wouldn't put it past the G3 pattern to achieve such a group, with the fancy ammo of tomorrow, even if it was one group out of 7 or 8. Reliability and ruggedness being most important, from what I know I would hold the PTR to be the most reliable, also it has a thick receiver tht while makes it a tad heavy, makes it extremely robust, and the FAL is also heavy from my understanding. It is more than accurate enough for a ranch rifle, I'd be hesitant to throw mine in the back of the truck, but if you did it would be fine in all respects but aesthetically. On an ATV, with any grit or dirt in or on it, it will still go bang. Bear in mind, I have not had any experiance with the other two rifles, so my opinion is rather biased, but I love my PTR dearly and would stand by it through about anything. So, all that said, perhaps for this purpose I would choose the cheaper, also extremely reliable and plenty accurate Saiga, but if everything was ideal and had my pick of the litter, I'd take the PTR-91. It is nothing against the proven FAL platform, but when I made this same decision myself this is the conclusion I arrived at. The FAL jammed in the sand when the Israeli's used it, lead me to wonder what else. I understand that it is a well battle proven platform, but weighing everything I chose and chose well, and my decision has never let me down.
PTR is the most accurate and most reliable, especially in sand. most difficult to shoot offhand, ergonomics are poor. may be the easiest to damage due to sheet metal receiver. open sights are so-so. you'll wan to spend $60 on a trigger job.
FAL is very reliable, best ergonomics, easy to shoot well. tends to "string" its shots as the barrel gets hot. open sights are ok, spend $70 on a "para" sight.
Saiga is inexpensive and reliable, not very accurate. mags are expensive and not universally available. open sights are poor.
also please consider a Garand. they are inexpensive ($600 from CMP), easy to shoot, almost as reliable as any of the above, and the same accuracy as a FAL (better that a Saiga). surplus ammo is also cheap from CMP. extremely rugged. best open sights ever designed.
FAL is very reliable, best ergonomics, easy to shoot well. tends to "string" its shots as the barrel gets hot. open sights are ok, spend $70 on a "para" sight.
Saiga is inexpensive and reliable, not very accurate. mags are expensive and not universally available. open sights are poor.
also please consider a Garand. they are inexpensive ($600 from CMP), easy to shoot, almost as reliable as any of the above, and the same accuracy as a FAL (better that a Saiga). surplus ammo is also cheap from CMP. extremely rugged. best open sights ever designed.
I wouldn't consider the Saiga inaccurate. Both of mine have been on a par with the FAL's I have owned. Both FAL's and Saiga's are realistically 3 MOA weapons. The FAL definitely has better ergonomics, sights and optics mounting options however.
I'd rank the Saiga above the FAL for reliability, but the FAL is adequate in that department.
The major downside to the Saiga are the expensive mags. You can get, (or at least you could until recently), good FAL and G3 mags for $5 or less. Saiga mags are around $45.
Haven't owned a G3 type weapon.
I'd rank the Saiga above the FAL for reliability, but the FAL is adequate in that department.
The major downside to the Saiga are the expensive mags. You can get, (or at least you could until recently), good FAL and G3 mags for $5 or less. Saiga mags are around $45.
Haven't owned a G3 type weapon.
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