Sig ACP...I just don't get it!

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Yeah, well, it's August.

I didn't say I could do it in the summer or that the ACP could be carried in the summer did I?

I didn't say it was difficult to attach a sight system, and it does allow you to use better sights than conventional pistol sights, however, those Aimpoints, Eotechs, and Acogs cost as much as the pistol underneath.

I wasn't making the point that it was easy either. It's the fact that it seems that everyone is able to afford to put a red dot on their weapon. You don't need a $400 sight either.

You already own or issue a compatible pistol.

Was it free?

If not, then that is a part of the cost for this as a weapon, regardless of when or who pays it.

No it wasn't free, but I already own it. I didn't buy my XD to put into something like this but I want to, I can. If you're buying a trailer for a pickup truck, do you think that it's expensive because it requires a truck despite you already owning a truck or do you just look at the cost of the trailer?

I think you are intentionally being obtuse here. I also think, just based on your earlier size/weight comparison of the ACP to your rifle, where you conveniently forgot to include the dimensions and weight of anything other than the cage itself, that you aren't thinking through the position you are attaching your name to.

I just went by what SIG had on the website, didn't consider that it may have been just the ACP without a pistol. Point still stands though.

Add a TON of bulk for the folding stock that'll about double the width of the thing.

Since when do wirefolding stocks double the size of something? Have you seen how thin it is?

 

[boricua9mm]

I understand just fine, thank you. You seem to have trouble comprehending this, however.
There is no reason to refer to this as a SBR. It isn't. It's a pistol with a stock. Only the ATF would call this a SBR. There's not a longer barrel, it isn't an intermediate cartridge like .223 or 7.62x39, it's simply and only a pistol with a 5" or less barrel with a stock attached to it. (and again, a bunch of pointless, goofy rails)

Clearly, you don't understand the NFA process or how these projects actually precipitate. SIG isn't selling these as complete factory SBRs. They are selling it as a chassis system. They sell it without a stock so you are not in violation for owning it in conjunction with a compatible pistol. You buy it, fill out a Form 1 to make an SBR out of your pistol, take care of any necessary engraving, wait a while and then proceed with adding the pistol to this chassis to make an SBR. That is how people make SBRs. This is exactly what people have been doing for decades with SP89s, UZIs, AR Pistols, AK pistols, HK clones, etc. We call that a clue. They sell a product in a seemingly senseless, legalized format for those of us who have the ambition to make them NFA items and realize their true potential. That's what you guys aren't understanding.

I do not believe in any way that this is going to increase my shooting speed or accuracy to any measure worth the bother. Especially considering we're talking about a very mildly recoiling 9mm. I know this for a fact, so I'm not dead wrong at all. I own a 9mm PCC, and I assure you, there is no difference in speed or accuracy that would make any difference whatsoever in defensive use of this gadget.
And why would this have any difference in how far I can shoot? There isn't a longer barrel, there isn't an increase in velocity. At least with my PPC, there's a 16" barrel.

Do you have any experience whatsoever shooting pistol caliber SBR at torso sized targets at rapid speeds at distances out to 100 yards? I've personally had lots of fun demonstrating this to folks who, like you, thought their pistol was just as effective at engaging targets as a pistol caliber SBR. At 25 yards the SBR smokes the pistol under a timer. By the time you work your way out to 100 yards, there is no contest left to speak of. A 9mm can deliver many more rounds on target at a faster speed when the distance is larger than the inside of a phone booth.

Your 16" PCC referenced is neither fish nor fowl. They are as big and heavy as a rifle without the benefits of a more potent cartridge. In addition, a 16" barrel is not the sweet spot for most pistol calibers. In fact, the sweet spot for velocity gains is usually in the realm of 9-10 inches. Properly done, SBRs are handier, lighter and faster into action than their Title 1 wanna-be cousins. The all important shoulder stock aspect adds much more physical stability as well as visual stability in the sight picture. That is what makes them more effective defensive or offensive tools than a traditional handgun.

Frankly, I could care less about products like the ACP or the Glock stock systems. My MP5 clone SBR takes care of anything I need a small shoulder-fired 9mm to do. However, I do understand what the market is for these things. Some of you likely never will be able to grasp it, and that's fine too.

 

[kcshooter]

They are as big and heavy as a rifle without the benefits of a more potent cartridge

No. It's less than 4lbs actually, and your example here doesn't have the intermediate cartridge benefit either. Money out the window.

In addition, a 16" barrel is not the sweet spot for most pistol calibers. In fact, the sweet spot for velocity gains is usually in the realm of 9-10 inches.

Again, not a benefit of this platform. This is a 5 inch or under barreled handgun. Money out the window.
A 9mm performs a heck of a lot better out of a 16" barrel than a 5" barrel. Sure, 10" may be best (don't know if I believe that), but for $200 extra (for nothing, btw).

At 25 yards the SBR smokes the pistol under a timer

Smokes? From ready position? Not hardly.
As for the hundred yards question, that's what rifles are for. By rifles, I'm talking about a platform that shoots a rifle cartridge.

And once again, the only people that would think of this as a SBR is the ATF (and you apparently).
Everyone knows it's nothing more than a pistol with a stock, and a bunch of goofy, pointless rails.

I understand the regulations just fine, thank you. That isn't the question here. The question is why you keep calling this a rifle, when it clearly is not. Do you understand firearms?

Who pays a tax stamp for a handgun??

I find this conversation to be almost as pointless as this platform.

 

[spider 69]

Forgot not everybody knows this

"NG VI

Ebay isn't the issue.

It's the pistol stock accessory that, when possessed while possessing a compatible pistol, regardless of state of assembly, constitutes possession of a short barreled rifle.

If the buyer didn't get the stamp ahead of time, they are now a felon. Even if they never put the two together."


Thanks for this.

 

[nwilliams]

At 25 yards the SBR smokes the pistol under a timer

I would love to see someone with a handgun mounted in an ACP in a side by side competition with someone with the same handgun without an ACP. I would wager that the person without the ACP on their handgun will be faster to draw and aim, faster to reload and faster to clear a malfunction. I would also wager that your average skilled handgun shooter will be just as accurate without an ACP added to their handgun as someone with an ACP even with a stock attached.

 

[TennJed]

I would love to see someone with a handgun mounted in an ACP in a side by side competition with someone with the same handgun without an ACP. I would wager that the person without the ACP on their handgun will be faster to draw and aim, faster to reload and faster to clear a malfunction. I would also wager that your average skilled handgun shooter will be just as accurate without an ACP added to their handgun as someone with an ACP even with a stock attached.

I completely agree

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

It's the pistol stock accessory that, when possessed while possessing a compatible pistol, regardless of state of assembly, constitutes possession of a short barreled rifle.

If the buyer didn't get the stamp ahead of time, they are now a felon. Even if they never put the two together."

That's not the case. I would have to do some digging to find it but there was one case of a guy arrested on unrelated charges. In his car he had a double barrel shotgun that was broken down. The barrels were sawn-off under legal lengths but he wasn't charged for it because it wasn't assembled. I imagine that these kits can also be used with Airsoft guns.

 

[boricua9mm]

No. It's less than 4lbs actually, and your example here doesn't have the intermediate cartridge benefit either. Money out the window.

So what, exactly, is this marvelous 16" PCC that you are using as the basis for your argument here? Ambiguity isn't helping you at all.

Again, not a benefit of this platform. This is a 5 inch or under barreled handgun. Money out the window.
A 9mm performs a heck of a lot better out of a 16" barrel than a 5" barrel. Sure, 10" may be best (don't know if I believe that), but for $200 extra (for nothing, btw).

I never said it was a benefit of the ACP setup, but rather that your beloved 16" PCC is not offering you significantly better ballistics as you seem to believe. http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/

Smokes? From ready position? Not hardly.

Yes, it is faster, period. Starting at a low ready position with a buttstock tucked into your shoulder immediately yields a nice, steady sight picture, which is what helps put rounds on target. It also helps tremendously with recoil management and follow-up shots. If this were not the case, we would see Glock 18s winning all the subgun competitions. We don't.

And once again, the only people that would think of this as a SBR is the ATF (and you apparently).
Everyone knows it's nothing more than a pistol with a stock, and a bunch of goofy, pointless rails.

You insist on remaining clueless about actual NFA laws that are on the books, as well as the NFA market for which this product is intended. You must be completely baffled by the continued interest in MP5 pistols, AR pistols, AK pistols, DSA TP9s, etc. Those who have dabbled in the NFA game actually get it. The ATF doesn't consider a firearm an SBR unless it has a barrel of less than 16 inches AND a buttstock. Owning the ACP chassis and a SIG pistol does not make it an SBR unless there is a buttstock attached OR the chassis, pistol and buttstock are owned in the same vicinity (see Constructive Intent laws). However, that does nothing to change the fact that the market is for people who will buy this are doing so with the intention of filing a Form 1 and making an SBR.

I understand the regulations just fine, thank you. That isn't the question here. The question is why you keep calling this a rifle, when it clearly is not. Do you understand firearms?

From your insistence that ATF considers the ACP, as a chassis, an SBR clearly communicates that your mind is cloudy with regards to NFA regs. From your continued neglect of the NFA market for which this product is a prime example, that notion seems to be solidified.

Who pays a tax stamp for a handgun??

Boatloads of people have filed Form 1s to have pistols turned into SBRs. I've seen more than a few people at local ranges shooting Glock SBRs in various renditions. Apparently the answer is many people.

Pointless without a buttstock, sure, but that's not the main reason why SIG is selling this. To date they've offered factory 556 SBRs as well as 556Ps (pistols) for those who want to file a Form 1 and make their own SBR. They are no stranger to the NFA market, and the fact that this offering is available to civilians is the proof in the pudding.

 

[kcshooter]

So what, exactly, is this marvelous 16" PCC that you are using as the basis for your argument here? Ambiguity isn't helping you at all.

Keltec sub2000, exactly 4.0lbs. It wasn't ambiguous, it just didn't matter.


Meh.
Nothing else you've written is worth responding to again. Your repetition isn't helping you at all.

 

[Fishbed77]

In the case of BSG, they had their technology based around fighting machines, and should have had weapons better designed for that task.

The funny thing is that early in the series, nothing short of a direct hit from an "armor-piercing grenade" would kill the Cylon Centurians. Later on, though, a single round or two from their FN FiveseveNs or Beretta CX4s would do the trick just fine...