Lasers on pistols. Good? Not good? your thoughts?

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"If you take the phrase "from the hip" out of the equation, I don't see anything there that I can't do with regular sights.

When the time arises, I don't want to take anything out of the equation that gives me an advantage.

"Night sights use the same skills as irons (and still function during the day), they are significantly cheaper than a lot of the laser options out there, and they don't change the profile of your pistol by adding them."

That is true but nights sights are inherently larger than the GI sights or tunnel sights on many CCW handguns. For EDC, many would like to maintain the smallest profile possible. Many laser grips don't change the weapon profile one bit, even IWB holster work well with them.
 
my two cents

I have four handguns and only one has any sort of attachment (which is a tac-light for my Glock 17, although it fits on my Sig SP2022). I'm sure some people hate them and find them distracting while others will swear by them. As has been said in this thread already it's a question of what works for you (why does it always have to be that way? can't something just be true or false?). I doubt I'll ever own one but I wouldn't rule it out, in my experience I've found them to be distracting and when I'm close enough to make use of a laser I'm also close enough that I can fire instinctively (or just too close to miss).

I realize I've posted without saying one way or another, and I hope it's not throwing fuel on the fire. I think if you like them, use them; if you don't, then don't. I'd have to get a new holster if I wanted to start carrying something with a laser (or my tac light for that matter) on it, so for the moment I find myself in the 'eh, no thanks' camp as far as lasers go. If I were to ever get one it'd be rail-mounted under the barrel and not those built-into-the-grip kind.

I would like to see a dual mount laser/tac light on a shotgun though... that would be something to behold.
 
...I've heard this, but it strikes me as somewhat dicey. If you're giving the bad guy a chance to look at his chest, you've either waited too long to shoot or you're not really in a situation calling for the brandishing in the first place.......

I'm sorry, I did not make it clear that I was referring to using it in my own home, say, in the dark.

If someone has broken into my home and my life is threatened, I can brandish anything I want!

I am not aware of any "rules of engagement" within our own homes!
 
I am in agreement with Sam - not for serious defensive purposes, but could be fun plinking. I've got a set of CT grips on my Kimber and am starting to find them more of a hindrance than a help. my main complaint is that when practicing drawing from the holster, the bright dot is nothing but a distraction from finding the front sight. when actually shooting, the same is true, namely that my eyes want to follow the dot and pull away from the less bright front sight. I'll probably be selling them soon, even though the olive drab and black looks sexy on my stainless tle pro :D

to those who are pushing the "only use them when you need them" mindset, if your application is for defensive purposes, how do you practically do this? do you reach down and turn them on at dusk? do you not apply all of the pressure needed to activate them? do you really think that in a fight for your life, you want to be wondering if it's laser time?

to tho OP, I say save your money and spend it on better things like a good training class or good holster and belt.
 
Anything that requires batteries to function is not something I would stake my life on. You might be surprised how many times I have seen competitors step up to the firing line at a match and discover their red dot sights are out of service from a dead battery. Ooops. I think people need to learn to use the sights when they have enough light to see them and how to point shoot when they don't. It's not that hard.
 
I have a CT on my M92 and practice with it and without, I can point it in the evening or indoors without bringing it to full firing position(faster) and hit critical mass or head shot as the laser is sighted in at 25' and will make any point and shoot a deadly shot, so I'm for it and will use it in an emergency. Practicing with the laser on has given me enough muscle memory to do accurate point shots from point blank to 25' so even if it doesn't light up when needed, I feel confident of accurate shots.:cool::neener::neener::neener::neener::neener::neener:
 
I have a TLR-2 on my G35, it's neat looking, and the light is super bright - but at pistol distances the laser doesn't do much for me that good ol index aiming can't.

Trying to use the laser alone as an aiming device is worthless, you spend more time chasing the laser on to the target than you do making accurate well placed shots. Also it's completely worthless during day time, you have to be so close to see the dot you're going to be fighting hand to hand rather than aiming a pistol.
 
This makes it sound like there's no disadvantage. I don't want to drop the money on CT grips and batteries just in case I find a need for it in the future (especially if I'm not training to use it). I don't want the extra bulk of a rail-mounted laser on my pistol if I'm carrying and don't see likely need for it, and would prefer to just have a WML instead of a light+laser combo (simplicity of operation, wont hit the wrong one by accident).
You obviously haven't even looked at some of the newer CTs. The one on my Glock 23 (my primary carry gun) probably weighs all of a couple of ounces! In fact, I can't tell ANY difference in weight between when it's on or off the gun. It's not an actual grip, but just a piece that fits across the back of my grip, so that when I pull the weapon and grip the gun, the laser automatically activates (after being turned on...simple push of a button). It's one of those things that you get, although you know you'll probably never need it. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. BTW, as I've already stated, I usually only practice with it part of the time, because I don't want to lose my skills.
 
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(after being turned on...simple push of a button)
Do these have to be turned on one time then activated with a second switch, or does the button needs to be pressed each time you shoot with them?

What keeps this button from being pressed during carry, turning them either on or off unintentionally?
 
Do these have to be turned on one time then activated with a second switch, or does the button needs to be pressed each time you shoot with them?

What keeps this button from being pressed during carry, turning them either on or off unintentionally?

The above is the reason why I don't want it on my pistol.

If it can be just tucked away nicely as if it does not exist until I need it, then I would opt to have a laser, since it won't hurt to have one.

The problem is with the switch system. If I need it, then I need it NOW. That means the type of switches that requires my trigger finger to make another stop at the laser button or switch before going to the trigger is unacceptable. This is why I prefer DG switchs with a pistol light.

That leaves me with a grip mounted switch that is activated by something other than a trigger finger. Problem with that is that it may be too easy to activate, even when I don't want to. I kept activating Crimson Trace laser on an M&P when I did not want to, and it was quite distracting. However, that was an older version.

The activation system has to be a one that is hard to activate when I don't want to, but immediately accessible when I need it. I can't find anything on the market that meets that conflicting demand.

The weapon light shaped on from Crimson Trace seem to be promising, but I need that space open for weapon light. Anyway, if for some reason I do want a laser, it would be a Crimson Trace.
 
Laser on pistol? I find invaluable. Too many advantages with a laser sighting system on your defense hand gun - a must.
 
Too many advantages with a laser sighting system on your defense hand gun
Such as? I think we've refuted most of the common answers to this here, is there some advantage you are referring to that we haven't covered?

Personally, I can't think of a single one.
 
"Do these have to be turned on one time then activated with a second switch, or does the button needs to be pressed each time you shoot with them?

What keeps this button from being pressed during carry, turning them either on or off unintentionally? "

kc, the latest CT grips have an Off-on switch on one of the panels, which allows you to practice with or without the laser if you want to. Even when you turn the switch to the on position, there is another pressure sensitive switch on the front of the grip, which automatically turns the laser on, as soon as you grip the pistol. There's no delay and it's automatic. It won't turn on or off, by accident, during carry or while holstered.
 
So you turn on a main switch, and then the pressure switch signals the laser.

It won't turn on or off, by accident, during carry or while holstered.
What keeps the main switch from being turned off accidentally while carrying, so that when you draw and expect the laser as the pressure switch is activated, it suddenly isn't there, and you actually have to be able to shoot a gun without it?



Here's what I'm getting at.
Threat presents itself.
OODA loop start.
You draw to a sightless firing position, and for one reason or another, the laser isn't there.
OODA loop restart.
This is slow. Slow is bad.

Even if you accept that they could be faster (which I certainly don't), anything goes wrong, (and it will, Murphy's a jerk), and they become not just slower, but significantly slower.
 
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I would be more concerned with the light coming on with my shooting grip, the CT I have tried was on a J frame and activation required a change in my grip to activate that degraded my accuracy. It seems that it is either going to be to one or the other with a pressure switch. The guide rod style I have doesn't use a switch that affects the grip, it activates from either side of the gun left thumb or right index finger with a right hand grip.
I prefer it to grip mounted types but the more I use it the less it seems to offer. Slow deliberate fire is what I have found to be what works the best. I'm pretty sure I would not spend the $2-$4 hundred to buy one and might sell the one I have to fund a couple more sets of TFO's or go towards a RDS.
 
A training issue?

Some of the disadvantages cited for laser sights might be based in an inadequacy of traditional training methods. IOW, what has worked to train people to shoot with iron sights might not apply to laser sights. A different approach may be needed.

For example, some have said that lasers are distracting. I can see how this would be true if you're also trying to use your iron sights. A new rule for laser sights might be, "Either use the laser and ignore the irons, or shut off the laser and use the irons". Using the laser, you might not even want to present the gun so that you can see the sights.

Has anyone developed a training course devoted to laser sight usage?

I'm heavily involved in flight training. The new cockpit technology can be a big help, but requires a different approach to training. Even the FAA recognizes this.
 
"What keeps the main switch from being turned off accidentally while carrying, so that when you draw and expect the laser as the pressure switch is activated, it suddenly isn't there, and you actually have to be able to shoot a gun without it?"

kc, other styles may differ but on mine(on a 1911 Officer), the main switch is stiff AND inset into the left-hand grip, so that turning on or off by accident just won't happen.

It's a shame that indoor ranges (at least in my area), don't have a selection of arms with lasers on them, so that more people could try them and decide for themselves. You'd think that with the grip versions at least, a gun range could easily swap them out in a minute or two if folks wanted to take them for a whirl around the dance floor. At least then, all the guessing and supposition wouldn't be going on.

I'm sure they're not the cup of tea for everyone, nor are they right for all applications, but I wouldn't want to go without them on a small, carry gun if given a choice.
 
"Either use the laser and ignore the irons, or shut off the laser and use the irons".

But the fundamentals of instinctive, rapid, defensive handgunning are the same for all shots. You really CAN'T train two completely different rapid emergency responses to the same problem. Defensive training and competition practice have trended toward isolating the quickest and most effective human responses to needing to engage a hostile threat with a handgun, and that's summed up best in the 4-count drawstroke and presentation. There really isn't another pseudo-presentation that works nearly so well, which is why no trainers are teaching the old FBI-crouch, or the "speed rock" or any other variations any more.

Introducing another, parallel, path of response just to be able to close off one sighting system choice in favor of another involves far too complicated response, and even more importantly, adds an entire "OODA" loop within your "OODA" loop. That's going to introduce quite possibly fatal lag.

The only way to be close to on-target with your laser from the draw is to bring it up into your workspace and push it out in the normal presentation, using your body to index the muzzle direction and "dressing" the sight picture as you push out to the shot.

(The closer the threat, the more urgently you need to shoot quickly, and the less precise your aim needs to be, so as the target gets closer, you can shoot from a rougher and rougher index, all the way back to "position 2" of the draw, i.e.: the "retention" position.)

If you are trying to adopt an alternative sighting "track" the decision path would have to work something like this:

1) Observe the threat
2) Orient to meet the threat
3) Observe the conditions.
4) Decide the conditions require the alternate sighting system (laser).
5) Draw the weapon in your "alternate" style, to keep the sights out of your view. This loses your body index, and/or disconnects your normal sight picture "dressing" procedure from your regular eye-hand coordination. (In other words, you're now holding the pistol off-line somewhere -- wide or low probably -- and now attempting to put the dot on the target from an unnatural angle outside of your cone of vision.)
6) Orient the sighting system -- now more difficult because you don't have the benefit of a standard push-out presentation along your line of sight.
7) Act (Shoot).

This CAN work, of course, but only if you're given the great benefit of several precious seconds to work all these things out. If you envision the scenario you're facing to give you plenty of time to decide and act and the chance to present the gun and aim it carefully (maybe the threat doesn't see you yet? Maybe he's just very generous...) then surely you could get the dot on him, move it to some vital spot, and shoot.

But if you're thinking more in terms of fighting with a handgun, then you cannot possibly build in processes that give you this kind of time benefit and "best case scenario" planning.

The less you have to decide, the more likely you are to be able to do what you have to do in the time you have to work with. Anything that introduces "options," decisions, evaluations, and complexity in using your tools is a bad, bad thing.
 
the main switch is stiff AND inset into the left-hand grip, so that turning on or off by accident just won't happen
Ah yes. Just won't happen.
Murphy would disagree.

Trust me, just because it probably won't happen, doesn't mean it can't and certainly doesn't mean it won't.

And then what do you do, when the laser you expected to be there suddenly isn't?

The answer to that question is: you lose.
 
kcshooter,
I met that Mr. Murphy today. He snuck up on me sometime while I was carrying and turned the main switch of my CT grips off. Didn't even know he was there, that sneaky devil! Just noticed it now when I unholstered and put my rosco in the safe. hmmm....

So, anybody want to buy a set of Kimber-logo CT Lasergrips for a 1911?
 
met that Mr. Murphy today. He snuck up on me sometime while I was carrying and turned the main switch of my CT grips off.
Really? Didn't mean to jinx anyone with that statement.
Well, at least you noticed when you didn't need the laser, rather than when you did.

Like I said, Murphy's a jerk.

Just goes to show you, you can't assume that these will be there when you need them. Now we have an actual user who can verify the theory.

Just reinforces my belief that these are more of a liability than an asset.
 
I met that same Murphy, emt, when I went to put my XDm in the safe and noticed the LCI indicated it was empty - forgot to rack it after slapping the magazine in after cleaning. If I'd have needed it, that click would have been loud.
 
I'm faster with sights. if I had to pick a color it would be green our eyes pick up green faster tba. red or ateast that's what we were told when we got our peq-15s at work. and keep in mind that every grunt unit for at least the past to years is running 15s now which have both an IR and regular green laser on it.


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