Lasers on pistols. Good? Not good? your thoughts?

[Tcruse]

I like having the option. I added a CT laser to Glock 26. Does not affect the existing sights where they would be more useful. Adds ability to hit a long distances in low light.
Nothing to remember to turn on or turn off, just there if needed. Small enough to not require any hoster changes. So, I see no down side. Certainly, a real advantage if shooting round barriers where you do not want to make your head a target.

 

[CraigC]

Yes but I'm not talking about using a Ransom Rest. I still have to hold it and sight it. What it will do is minimize movement while trying to manage the heavy trigger on a lightweight pistol. Not only will it dispel a lot of the rhetoric about the accuracy of pocket guns, it will at least prove to me that "I" can shoot more accurately with the laser than the irons. I already know that I'm more accurate with the laser off hand. The bench will just tell me by how much.

 

[Cosmoline]

Red dots on CCW's? That's the future?

Well don't be too quick to poo-poo it. The fact is most of these youngsters look at iron sights like they look at standard transmissions. Consider that it used to be bizarre to see a light attached to a pistol, and now many of them are coming with rails built right into the frame. As red dots get compact and popular enough, I would not be surprised to see more people using them for handguns. And then we'll start to see FLATTOP Glocks!

But still, a good red dot sight is a viable sighting system. Putting the red dot way out on the target and wiggling it around really fast isn't the same thing.

 

[Sam1911]

Certainly, a real advantage if shooting round barriers where you do not want to make your head a target.

I still can't picture how this works. Suppressive fire maybe?

Maybe I'm just training to pie corners entirely the wrong way. Your head still has to be... ???

 

[Sam1911]

And then we'll start to see FLATTOP Glocks!

Like these?

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=45253/Product/TACTICAL-RMR-SLIDE-FOR-GLOCK#

 

[X-Rap]

You must hold a mirror with the other hand??

 

[Skribs]

I still can't picture how this works.

A character in my book can do it just fine, but his vision has access to different spectrums so he can see through walls...and he doesn't need to use sights to have perfect aim. But you're right, in order to even see the laser, you have to expose your head. Maybe mount a camera on the pistol? Oh! Cornershot!

 

[Sam1911]

How about back off the cover, lean at the waist and "slice the pie" carefully so you're exposing nothing but the gun, your hands, an ear, and one eye.

I could hit something that way. Don't know what difference ANY sight at all would make on a gun if you're poking it around the corner where you can't see the sights, the dot, the target...?

 

[X-Rap]

I suppose one could use it as a light can be used, holding it away from the body and projecting the beam and then shooting but that introduces a whole different group of muscles and tension into the act of firing which probably negates any benefit of diverting fire from the body to the origin of the beam. Plus it means you have to be very much in the dark and wearing dark clothes to not be seen anyway.
Just not a good plan.

 

[springer99]

Re: using a lazer around covers.

1 - don't assume all corners are 90%, they aren't.
2 - don't assume you can always back away from cover.
3 - cover in a home isn't always from the bottom up, or left or right. Alot of variations out there.
4 - don't "picture" how it works, try it.

All I know is that if I try to hold a sight picture, using iron sights with my CCW around a door frame, etc. , and then do the same when using just the lazer, there's alot less of ME exposed. This appears to hold true, whether you are left or right eye dominant.

 

[Skribs]

Even if the corner isn't 90 degrees, or the cover is different, you still have to expose enough of yourself to see the target clearly. It doesn't take much more to get a proper sight picture.

With the laser, you're advertising where you're aiming, so the BG may pick up on where you are better than if you don't have one.

Also consider that most cover in your home is concealment, not cover.

 

[Sam1911]

4 - don't "picture" how it works, try it.

I run cover drills of every conceivable nature multiple times a month. Under, over, beside. Kneeling, standing, prone, whatever.

I still don't see how you can shoot around cover accurately without putting your head behind the gun. You have to see the target. So there has to be a clear line between part of your head and the target.

 

[M2 Carbine]

I keep telling myself that I'm not going to post in these laser threads.
It's the same thing over and over again, spoken by people that frankly don't know what they are talking about. All most people know about gun mounted lasers is what they see in the movies, which is wrong, and they keep repeating the same old incorrect stuff.
"Oh, I tried a laser once and I was slow and couldn't hit anything, so the laser must be crap".:banghead:


Instead of writing the same thing again for the hundredth time I'll put it like this.
I've used and experimented with gun mounted lasers for years. I know what is true and what is not. I know the laser's strong and weak points.
I know the laser, and better yet the laser/light, is far ahead of what's second best.

I have a backyard range where I shoot with lasers 4 or 5 evenings a week. If lasers weren't the best thing for low light, dark shooting I would have abandoned them years ago and saved myself thousands of dollars on dozens of lasers. All my defense guns, handguns, rifles and shotguns are equipped with dozens of (good) lasers.


If you CAN DO such as this with your current low light/dark defense setup you do not need a laser.

This is the time to use a laser, NOT IN DAYLIGHT. Iron sights are for daylight.








This is what the laser will help you do. Most all shooting is fast firing, point shooting or from the hip. Misses are unusual and the speed matches or exceeds most other shooting. The accuracy almost every time exceeds any other type of low light/dark shooting.

25 yards from the hip in darkness using a Streamlight TLR-2 laserlight. Rapid fire. Childs play.



21 feet. From the hip. Remington 12 ga with #4 and a slug. Aimed wide to miss the hostage.



Remington 12 ga. Fast fired from the hip using a Streamlight TLR-2 laser.
Bad guy at 17 yards shot in the chest with #4 and 00 Buckshot.
Two slugs in the butt and three in the little target from 26 yards still using the Streamlight.







Hip shooting weak and strong hand, from the hip.
(I can't begin to do this with any other low light shooting system).








I also am hard pressed to do this with iron sights, night or day.
With a good laser setup like this Kimber ans Crimson Trace laser even low light 40 yard COM shots are easy.




Even new shooters, when given a little instruction on the proper way to use the laser, do very well.
This Senior lady had not shot a gun two days before. Late on her second day of shooting I gave her a Streamlight TLR-2 equipped Ruger 22/45, a quick laser lesson, and told her to shoot the gun from the BG's hand. About 8-9 yards as I recall.
I told her this was not satisfactory. Misses are not acceptable.




So bottom line, I do not care if you get a laser and learn to properly use it or not, but understand if the other guy has one and can use it you could be at a serious disadvantage.


.

 

[M2 Carbine]

With the laser, you're advertising where you're aiming, so the BG may pick up on where you are better than if you don't have one.

Oh please do not repeat that miss-information.

You DO NOT shine the laser around like a flashlight. That's movie crap.
Used properly, the BG, if he sees the laser at all, it will be a flash of Red light as the bullets hit him.

 

[Skribs]

You DO NOT shine the laser around like a flashlight. That's movie crap.
Used properly, the BG, if he sees the laser at all, it will be a flash of Red light as the bullets hit him.

Explain to me how I'm supposed to use it as a sighting system if I don't use it until the bullet hits him?

I'm curious as to how you would identify the target if it is so dark you can't see the irons, and why you need to hipfire at that range. Also, in the house picture, the laser is in the center of the flashlight. You could just shoot where the light is, and ignore the laser.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Explain to me how I'm supposed to use it as a sighting system if I don't use it until the bullet hits him?

I'm curious as to how you would identify the target if it is so dark you can't see the irons, and why you need to hipfire at that range. Also, in the house picture, the laser is in the center of the flashlight. You could just shoot where the light is, and ignore the laser.

If there's enough light, you identify the target.
Raise the gun as if point shooting.
If you practice at all you will be able to point within say 10 inches of where you want to hit, COM.
As you are raising the gun you light the laser.
As you will be automatically bringing the laser dot to where you are looking (where you want to hit) you are starting back on the trigger to fire.
All this should take about a second or less.
With a little practice the bullet and dot will be very close together in COM when the bullet hits the BG.
For repeat shots you keep the laser lit.
When you rapid fire multiple shots you will think the laser dot is jumping around a lot but (with practice) all the shots will be well within COM.
Just last week, within a few magazines a new lady shooter was tearing up the target her first time using the laser, while moving.


The laser dot is in the center of the flashlight beam because that is a Streamlight TLR-2 laser/light.
The TLR-2 can be used, light only, laser only or light and laser.
I set the 7 house gun TLR-2 Streamlights on laser/light.


I have tried using the flashlight beam for a sight. No good.

Now the light can be used with the iron sights with fair success, as shown with this low light practice Ruger 22/45. (the gun that lady shot)
I have a few guns with a light only mounted on them but I don't consider them primary defense guns.



Edit, In some rare cases the laser might be lit (like a flashlight) to try to intimidate a BG into giving up. Not high on my list of things to do,


.

 

[skoro]

I have a Crimson Trace laser on one of my handguns. It's really not useful in normal daylight conditions, so in no way does it replace using the sights. But in low light I find it extremely helpful.

 

[M2 Carbine]

I have a Crimson Trace laser on one of my handguns. It's really not useful in normal daylight conditions, so in no way does it replace using the sights.

True. This is were the laser gets bad mouthed for being slow, etc.
The laser is a low light/dark sighting system. Not a replacement for iron sights in daylight.
The laser is a light.
We don't use our flashlights in daylight do we.

Again, misuse of equipment (laser) from seeing it done in the movies.


I'm a helicopter pilot of 50 years. The the stupid use of helicopters in the movies drives me crazy.

 

[Skribs]

I still fail to see how, in low light, the laser is better than night sights. Night sights use the same skills as irons (and still function during the day), they are significantly cheaper than a lot of the laser options out there, and they don't change the profile of your pistol by adding them.

 

[kcshooter]

Hip shooting weak and strong hand, from the hip.

If you take the phrase "from the hip" out of the equation, I don't see anything there that I can't do with regular sights.

For me, "from the hip" means he's too close to me for me to extend my gun without risking retention. In other words, too close to miss, and too close to need a laser.

 

[Blue Eagle]

They sure would be useful in a darken movie theater.

BSA1: I totally agree with you. I would have given anything to have been in that theater with my CT mounted on my 1911. Any ex-military person would have recognized the tear gas and know instantly something was wrong. A good SureFire 200+ lumens & strobe could have distracted him long enough for some to have escaped and might have given a CCW trained shooter the opportunity to take the dog out. It was a "gun free zone" so I would have gone to jail but lives are worth jail anytime, to me.

 

[kcshooter]

I would have given anything to have been in that theater with my CT mounted on my 1911.

Really? That's an odd statement to me.
I'm more of a mindset that is glad I wasn't there.

However, even if I was, doubt the laser would have made any difference one way or another.

 

[MCgunner]

Quote:
I would have given anything to have been in that theater with my CT mounted on my 1911.

Really? That's an odd statement to me.
I'm more of a mindset that is glad I wasn't there.

Amen, brother. I'm not one to enter combat, especially against an AR15 and a shotgun with a PDW. Besides that, I don't want the legal hassles that would result even if I won the gun fight, or the bills.

 

[Sam1911]

If there's enough light, you identify the target.

You ALWAYS identify the target or you don't shoot. If, in the darkness the target is too far away to make out who/what the suspected threat is, you shouldn't be shooting. Shine a white light on it and now you can use your sights.

If it's too fast and close to use a light, it's close enough that you don't need sights to make the hits.

If you take the phrase "from the hip" out of the equation, I don't see anything there that I can't do with regular sights.

Yes, a lot of "from the hip," which isn't a method I'd ever want to try to use beyond "retention" distance. It's a parlor trick, then.

And a whole lot of "SA" fire. As I've said before, the test here isn't CAN a laser sight be an accurate aiming device, if you go slowly, take time to prep each shot carefully, and reacquire your sight picture with all the time you need to fire another SA shot.

If your defensive plans include long distance, carefully staged, slow fire then that's helpful. If you're thinking of shooting while moving, at moving targets, from the draw, etc. it is less and less so.

For me, "from the hip" means he's too close to me for me to extend my gun without risking retention. In other words, too close to miss, and too close to need a laser.

Indeed. And too close to allow yourself to waste time by looking for the laser dot on the target.

I agree that all these targets do show that a laser sight can be used to make accurate shots. I'm not in agreement that they are better or faster in a practical setting.

I really regret that this is going to sound dismissive, and I honestly do not mean it to be, but what these pictures seem to show is that laser sights make range plinking after dusk easier and more fun.

 

[JohnBiltz]

I'm normally not one to comment on spelling but a lot of you talking so knowingly about lasers can't even spell it. Its LASER with an S no Z. Its an acronym.

A laser is a device that emits light (electromagnetic radiation) through a process of optical amplification based on the stimulated emission of photons. The term "laser" originated as an acronym for Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation.[1][2] The emitted laser light is notable for its high degree of spatial and temporal coherence.