Lasers on pistols. Good? Not good? your thoughts?

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The laser is harder to get on target and it does go against everything I've learned, but my beagle loves to chase the red dot. So at least I found a good use for my purchase.
 
Personally, there is nothing fast about the way I see my front sights anymore even in good light. If you are a really good point shooter then I'd concede you don't need one. What I have found about point shooting is that I'm a fair point shooter coming out of the draw from practice. When I start moving I can't point shoot for jack.

In self defense shooting its been found that if people perceive a threat ahead of time and go into presentation when something happens they use their sights. If they have to draw they don't. Most people are not going to use their sights. This may be bad but it is what is, reality. Now if you draw you are not going to remember to use your laser either. The thing is when point shooting and this what you are doing whether you realize it or not, you are looking at the target. Its natural for your eyes to focus on the threat, it is what the body wants to do, it does not want to change its focus from the threat to some small pieces of metal sitting out there. One of two things is happening there you are missing and can't see the laser dot or you are scoring hits and the dot is right there and you remember you have a laser. You probably will not remember your iron sights until a reload. Iron sights or laser you need at least minimal point shooting skills. I really don't see the laser and iron sights in competition. They compliment each other.

This whole front sight press thing is a technique. Its a technique to be a good shooter with iron sights. It doesn't apply with a red dot nor does it apply with a laser. If you are saying front sight press with a laser or a red dot you are misapplying a technique not being correct.

I don't think a laser is the final answer and I don't think they will be around for that long. My honest opinion is red dots are going to push them and iron sights aside and that is going to happen pretty soon. Its already happened in competition and in combat. Cost and size is the only thing holding it back from self defense. Its the future.
 
Said with the best of heart, that's utter hogwash! I've been begging IDPA to allow them because it would be quite a telling thing to have a few more experimental types bring them out ... probably just once -- and I'd be willing to be that within the first year after they were made legal for competition, sales would plummet. In my more conspiratorial moods I've often supposed that it was the laser manufacturers themselves that pushed to have them banned from competition. They do NOT want thousands of shooters losing matches with their products!
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Well, it's the internet, they let anyone have an opinion.

Let's have a low light shooting match, I'm in Houston available almost any evening you want to shoot.
 
You still have to peek around the corner to see him. He may only see your flashlight, he may not. If you have the light mounted on your gun (I almost said "gun mounted on your light", which gave me the idea to add a picatinny rail to a flashlight to make a few bucks) you can fire back.
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I can get into position to shoot from behind cover and not have the light on the gun.
 
Let's have a low light shooting match, I'm in Houston available almost any evening you want to shoot.
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;) Tempting, but I'm a bit far away. Much as I enjoy night shooting, I can't devote a multi-thousand mile round trip to proving something that is largely self-evident.

And why LOW LIGHT, now? I thought you said lasers weren't allowed in COMPETITION because they were faster and more accurate? Most competitions are held during the day, you know. So are you agreeing that lasers are not faster and more accurate than iron sights in daylight? Good. Having settled the speed and accuracy issue, then it's a pretty short step to see why they promise more than they can deliver under dim conditions as well.
 
My honest opinion is red dots are going to push them and iron sights aside and that is going to happen pretty soon.
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I disagree with almost your entire post, but this most of all.

Red dots on CCW's? That's the future?
I mean, I'm no Nostradamus either, but I predict this prophesy isn't coming true.
 
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Red dots on CCW's? That's the future?
I mean, I'm no Nostradamus, but I predict this prophesy isn't coming true.
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Actually, minimalist red-dot setups are getting a toe-hold for carry.

Here's such a set-up: http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f54/GeninCloud/IMG_20111104_202642.jpg

Gabe Suarez is one proponant.

Here's a company doing similar stuff: http://www.bowietacticalconcepts.com/

It is not something I've felt really warm about, yet, but I'm not so stuck in the mud that I would refuse to adapt to technology that WORKS BETTER.

Here's the view: http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f54/GeninCloud/IMG_20111031_202226.jpg

I still don't like having that black halo of the body of an optic in my vield of view, but if it proves to be better, I'll be persuaded.
 
Yeah, but on a carry gun, I wouldn't do it. Breakage, battery issues, harder to conceal, too many cons for the pro.
And in the first pic, no rear sight visibility. That was my big reservation, but I've never seen one that had the rear sight still in place before, most fit into the rear dovetail.

I can't see a red dot on any of my guns. The sights work just fine. I can't really find a gain here. I'll leave them to the uber-tac hi speed low drag crowd.
 
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I'm not sure I would either, but it obviously can work, and some people are doing it right now. Considering that some of those sights have battery life of multiple years continuous "on," the battery question becomes moot.

Breakage issues, maybe. I've seen iron sights break off more times than I've seen these optics break (;) of course, I've not seen many of these optics so that's not really fair). The USA and USMC guys using similar sights are getting along ok with them and I'm not quite as hard on my gear as they tend to be. (Some of them still working after having stopped a bullet.)

Harder to conceal? That Glock with a small red dot is a lot easier to conceal than the 629 I sometimes carry...
 
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I only have a laser on one of my pistols that I have for defensive purposes.

My other guns all have night sights but my XD40 is ported and the front sight gets dirty after a couple of shots. So instead of night sights I got a laser for low light situations.

Yeah they can be tough to find even in the dark, but still if you're close with your aim either using the iron sights or pointing the laser will be there. I would agree the laser should not be your primary method for trying to get on target, but rather an aid after the target is lined up.

For me it's simply a way to enhance my ability to stay on target in a low-light situation.
 
At this point, I don't want lasers on my pistols.

Keep in mind that firing is not an instant action that happens in a point of time, but a process that happens through a span of time. Even if it is short as a fraction of a second, it is still a span of time where constant error detection and error correction loop occurs.

Iron sights gives me more information about the pistol to keep the aim on target than laser does, so lasers don't do much for me.

Iron sights tells me if the gun has rotated or the whole gun is shifted when aim is off.

A laser dot moving away from point of aim does not tell me whether if the gun is rotated or the gun is shifting to one side.

That can result in me actually being able to fire faster with an iron sight because I can control the gun, especially the trigger pull, more effectively. To put it short, laser dot only tells me that the aim is drifting off while iron sights tells me what is actually happening with the gun.

Now laser can be useful in situations where I can't look at the iron sights. However, for a device that has very limited utility, it can be distracting when I am using iron sights and burden me with extra bulk and manipulation distractions.
 
Lasers aren't the best for moving targets (bad guys don't stand still like the paper targets at the range). The laser will be far behind the target most of the time as you try to sweep it onto the target and use it to aim (perhaps not an issue in a house... but outside it could be an issue).

In order to know which direction to sweep the laser you have to look at your pistol to see which way it is oriented and which way you should try to move the muzzle. Instead, you could have simply just looked at your sights and fired instead of using your sights to align the laser... and then fire.

Lasers definitely aren't faster than sights. With practice you might obtain the same speed. But, it is much easier to find sights that are guaranteed to be on the gun in front of your face instead of searching for the dot that could be darting in and out of windows as you try to aim it at the attacker.

If you want an actual increase in speed you should learn how to point shoot like other people have suggested. I'm not a huge fan of that (depending on the situation) because even if you are good at point shooting, its a great way to sail missed rounds through the walls of your house that might hit things you really don't want to hit.

IMO if you already have a light and night sights on your gun, a laser won't hurt. But, a laser can't replace a light. And, if you do use a laser to aim you will have to hold your pistol lower than usual in order to "see" over your pistol/arms (which compromises your practiced firing stance). Also, don't forget that a bullet's trajectory is an arc while a laser's trajectory is a line. i.e. Your actual point of impact won't always coincide with where the dot is depending upon the range you zero the laser at and how far away the target is.
 
I have changed my mind on this. a little.

I used to say; "Lasers are crutches for people who don't want to learn proper shooting skills." Now I say; "Lasers are fine and offer some advantages in some situations, but don't replace proper shooting skills. If someone has learned the fundamentals for shooting and wants to use one, that's fine, as long as they don't pretend that it is the primary plan, not the backup plan."
 
Lasers definitely aren't faster than sights. With practice you might obtain the same speed.
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Only if you are hopeless with iron sights. It's in how our eyes and brain work with the sighting system, and the inherant nature of a target dot at the end of a projected ray which is describing a rapidly changing/changable angle. Visually, iron sights stay within the field of focus as you fire, ride the recoil, recover the sight picture, and fire again.

A human can learn to do this at least FIVE times per second.

A laser dot may be on target at the moment that you pull the trigger, but then as the gun recoils, it describes an arc of many degrees (translating to many feet of displacement downrange) as the gun rises and comes off-line, then settles back. But meanwhile you've lost all track of the dot. You must wait for the dot to reappear, and it will only come back into your field of view - at all - if you are still almost exactly on target. So your sight picture vanishes utterly, then blips back into existance, somewhere, when you can reaquire it, correct its alignment, and fire again. This takes FAR more time in practice than tracking iron sights which never go out of view.

I'd be willing to believe that a good, practiced shooter under good conditions, with a flat target that reflects the dot's light well, may be able to get off perhaps two aimed shots per second using laser sights, but that's not what I see when I watch people use them.
 
I have a laser sight on my Sig P226 NAVY and even though I love it, I don't typically shoot with it on all the time. Over the years my hands have become shaky, a trait that is genetic from my grandmother. It is fun to have but embarrassing on a public range were everyone can see just how much my hands shake! I can still hit what I shoot at with good accuracy, but it is still embarrassing. I would use it only as a secondary aiming aid while still utilizing the iron sights, however if for some reason I can't see well using the iron the laser is there to help.
 
but I'm not so stuck in the mud that I would refuse to adapt to technology that WORKS BETTER
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...says the guy who says he loves 1911s and revolvers, and uses leather holsters. (I'm just ribbing ya).

Sam, you mentioned RDS that have multiple year battery life, but you forgot to mention ones that use tritium. Those will last over a decade before you have to replace the tritium lamp, and there are no batteries to run out (or, from my understanding, circuitry, since it's all based on radiation, reflections, and possibly fiber optic amplification).

For those worried about the RDS failing, if it does, you can have BUIS (they just need to be suppressor sights instead of standard sights, some people even put a line on the RDS to use it as the rear sight). This will work better than if a laser fails, because it's only a minor change to the sight plane to switch from RDS to irons.

I'm waiting for the next generation of pistols to come out with more and more pre-milled slides factory standard, like the FNP/FNX 45 Tactical. I think that saving the shipping time and custom costs of having a slide milled will open the door for the RDS market. I don't think everyone will want them, even 50 years after this starts to happen, because it IS extra cost and a slight increase in pistol size (especially important on a pocket carry gun, because it might hook the pocket, but also a concern for other forms of carry), but I do believe that even in 10 years, we will see an increase in the number of people CCW with a RDS on their weapon.
 
My S&W Bodyguard .380 has taught me that it I can shoot much more accurately, much more easily with the laser than with the sights, with such a tiny sight radius. Targets the size of a paint or coffee can are easy at 25yds.
 
My S&W Bodyguard .380 has taught me that it I can shoot much more accurately, much more easily with the laser than with the sights, with such a tiny sight radius. Targets the size of a paint or coffee can are easy at 25yds.
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That may be true but do you think you sacrifice speed for accuracy that may not be necessary in a defensive role?
My support for a laser would be in a very precise shot inside where the light would show well on the target, for example the theater shooting. For what is deemed the typical defensive shooting of 21' and under the time required and the difference in accuracy don't pay off for me. For very long shots 50 yds + the laser would be pretty much useless in the light it would take to positively ID a target and still be able to see the dot and keep track of it on an active target. That and the intuitive way red dots work at both close and long range leads me in that direction if I were to change from open sights.
 
That may be true but do you think you sacrifice speed for accuracy that may not be necessary in a defensive role?
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No, speed and accuracy are up to me and in how much time I take to squeeze the trigger.
 
That may be true but do you think you sacrifice speed for accuracy that may not be necessary in a defensive role?
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If you have a true "belly gun" type rig that really doesn't have sights that can be easily see, the picture changes a bit.

Yes, at what many of us think of as "defensive" distances, you do not need them as the silhouette of the gun itself provides you with sufficient sighting reference to land your shots accurately and fast.

The laser could come in handy on the chance that you decide you must make a much longer shot (maybe 25 yds? if you can see the dot that far) and you're going to be able to take the time to place and find that dot on the distant target.

That seems to me like a very specialized and rare situation, where you have really NO effective iron sights and you also must take a very long shot with precision, but in that case and for that use, the laser could actually replace the irons as a better option.

I actually don't own or carry any guns that small so I'd need to do more investigation to see how practical this is.
 
After surfing through about 71 posts on this topic, I see alot of varying opinions on whether lazers are worthwhile or not. Having used them(the CT grip version and not rail mounted ones) on a small, CCW with maginal iron sights, I still feel they have value to me for strictly defensive purposes. Of course, if I were still in my twenties, with perfect eye-sight etc., maybe I'd never had tried them in the first place :D

For anyone considering them, I'd suggest giving them a try if possible. They'll never replace iron sights on firearms; nothing has done that in hundreds of years, but they do add flexibility to self-defensive situations. JMHO
 
The little S&W actually has a very good set of sights. Nice and square, unlike those found on early KelTecs. Even so, I can still shoot much more accurately, much more easily with the laser. The challenge becomes maintaining "sight picture" while managing the trigger in such a lightweight gun. While it should never be a first choice, folks don't always decide to break into your house when it's convenient for 'you'. So you just might find it to be the first accessible firearm when you need it. The longest distance in my house is nearly 20yds and that is well beyond what 'most' think a pocket pistol is good for. Well, I like to prepare for all contingencies so I practice with my carry pistols beyond contact distance.

I've actually been meaning to bench the little .380 at 25yds to see just how accurately I can shoot it with the laser at that distance. I think the results will be surprising to many.
 
I think benching it will take away a lot of the problems associated with lasers, especially at range. Keep in mind that at even 5 yards, every degree off target during recoil is 3", if my quick math is correct. That means 4 degrees off is a foot, 12 degrees off is a yard. That can add up pretty quick.

I don't think anyone is denying that the laser will be accurate. People are just stating that it will be slow to get the laser oriented, especially during the recoil.
 
Indeed. Mechanical accuracy should be of no question. Setting it on a bench and squeezing off one shot at a time is of exactly opposite relevance to my disagreements with the utility of the system.
 
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