I feel like I've missed something here, can you explain that one to me please?
"Sniper Rifles"
- Thread starter sprice
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I feel like I've missed something here, can you explain that one to me please?
ghostwriter
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@Blackops: So, respecting that you have more expertise than I do in bi-pod selection, could you possibly recommend an atlas bi-pod model you feel would be better for this rifle? Maybe be so kind as to provide a link so I might go look as well.
@USSR: I think that 2.5MOA at any distance is still 2.5MOA. The part that changes is the size of the circle circumscribing that dimension.
AT 100 yards a 2.5MOA would equal 2.5" roughly.
AT 800 yards a 2.5MOA would equal 20" if my math is correct roughly.
@USSR: I think that 2.5MOA at any distance is still 2.5MOA. The part that changes is the size of the circle circumscribing that dimension.
AT 100 yards a 2.5MOA would equal 2.5" roughly.
AT 800 yards a 2.5MOA would equal 20" if my math is correct roughly.
FC - I believe what USSR is trying to illustrate is this:
My rifle shoots .5moa with a certain load at 100yds. Nearly all the time. I have yet to shoot a .5moa group at 700yds. Theory and practice are very different.
So many variables once you start getting out that far. One factor that I see as an issue with milsurp weapons out that far is finding high quality, match grade bullets with a BC that would even support that kind of consistent accuracy.
I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just saying there's a reason they aren't on the line as much as others.
To address the OP: I think you've gotten a lot of good advice here. I don't know your experience levels with rifles, but if your new, consider one of the base line models, with a nice scope. Something like a 700 SPS, with a bushnell 4200 would be a good start and you could make upgrades as you go. The article Zak posted is excellent, so give it a read as well.
Good luck!
My rifle shoots .5moa with a certain load at 100yds. Nearly all the time. I have yet to shoot a .5moa group at 700yds. Theory and practice are very different.
So many variables once you start getting out that far. One factor that I see as an issue with milsurp weapons out that far is finding high quality, match grade bullets with a BC that would even support that kind of consistent accuracy.
I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just saying there's a reason they aren't on the line as much as others.
To address the OP: I think you've gotten a lot of good advice here. I don't know your experience levels with rifles, but if your new, consider one of the base line models, with a nice scope. Something like a 700 SPS, with a bushnell 4200 would be a good start and you could make upgrades as you go. The article Zak posted is excellent, so give it a read as well.
Good luck!
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I get what you are saying although I'm not sure if that is what USSR was saying or not. I would call that shooter error rather than rifle error on your part though, no offense intended.
From the OP;
Think 200 yards of elevation would be enough?
I would say that since you're probably not going to go snipe hunting with a .308, then you are not safe saying sniper rifle. Quotes or no quotes, your $800 rifle is not going to be a "sniper rifle".
That being said, if you can find a remington 700 action relatively cheap, you can add a custom barrel and stock to enhance your long-range capabilities. Since you are on a tight budget, why not just build it up over time and as funds allow. Have fun with it. Good luck
henschman
Member
Saying that a milsurp would not win a sniper match against the best modern rifles available is totally different than saying that they are completely worthless and cannot be used for long range shooting.
2.5 MOA is 2.5 MOA. Yes, it is harder to shoot 2.5 MOA at 800 than it is at, say 100, but mostly just because of wind and bullet drop. The rifle is capable of shooting the same MOA sized group at that distance as long as the shooter makes the proper correction. Hence my statement that if somebody misses you at 800 yards with a Mauser or Nagant, it isn't the rifle's fault. Anyway, most mil surps are capable of a lot better than 2.5 MOA, especially if you dope up a nice load for them. I just threw out the 2.5 MOA figure because that is how wide a man-sized target is at 800 yards, which is a mark that most mil surps have no problem hitting if the shooter does his part.
You won't be getting regular head shots at that distance, like you could with a more modern precision rifle, but a mil surp will still put your **** in the dirt from way out there, no doubt about it.
"The rifle is capable of shooting the same MOA sized group at that distance as long as the shooter makes the proper correction."
I will have to agree to disagree on that one. Some rifles with some rounds will shoot a 1.5moa group at 100yds, and with the very same load, drop it to .6moa at 500yds. 'Going to sleep' as they say.
Rifles will shoot .6 moa at 100yds, but the bullet (because of stabilization issues between the cartridge and the rifle) can't maintain that stability, and therefor precision, at farther distances. And it's not all elevation and windage. What about BC? What about stability? What about bullet concentricity and balance?
These are things, again, that might not be big players at 100yds, but at 800yds, you bet. In a theoritcal rifle with theoritcal ammo in theoritcal conditions, I would agree. But practically, it takes a very fine rifle with very fine ammo to maintain that level of precision at all distances. And of course, just as you said, a very fine shooter.
Again though, agree to disagree, no sense in arguing. I'm off topic anyway
I will have to agree to disagree on that one. Some rifles with some rounds will shoot a 1.5moa group at 100yds, and with the very same load, drop it to .6moa at 500yds. 'Going to sleep' as they say.
Rifles will shoot .6 moa at 100yds, but the bullet (because of stabilization issues between the cartridge and the rifle) can't maintain that stability, and therefor precision, at farther distances. And it's not all elevation and windage. What about BC? What about stability? What about bullet concentricity and balance?
These are things, again, that might not be big players at 100yds, but at 800yds, you bet. In a theoritcal rifle with theoritcal ammo in theoritcal conditions, I would agree. But practically, it takes a very fine rifle with very fine ammo to maintain that level of precision at all distances. And of course, just as you said, a very fine shooter.
Again though, agree to disagree, no sense in arguing. I'm off topic anyway
JackTheRipper
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Ah come on, don't cry about the use of a word. We all know what he means... If he wants to say sniper rifle, let the poor guy say it...
USSR
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Exactly. This is why taking an old Mosin Nagant and claiming because it will shoot within 2.5" at 100 yards, it will shoot within 20" at 800 yards is wishful thinking. Group sizes tend to expand as distance increases, not only because of shooter and environment related issues, but also because of bullet issues. Imperfections in bullets start impacting the flight characteristics of bullets when velocity and spin undergo changes over a great distance. And, in the case of the typical 7.62x54 bullet, you are starting off with a less than high quality bullet to begin with. Just MHO.
Don
What Camp Perry arena is OWNED by K-31's?
If you really want to get down to it, the K-31, with their ammo, really super match grade stuff for .50 cents around, might be a really great place to start.
If the gun doesn't shoot, buy a custom barrel?
Still, the Swiss are famous for their accuracy.
How am I arguing this?
Anyway, a Remmington 700 was recommended to me by a friend of mine that IS a retired SWAT SNIPER. Good to start with, even though they are a push feed, and plenty of cheap upgrades and stuff to add.
I'm sorry for being subtle. To put it the way a riflesmith I know puts it:
"All factory barrels are pretty much c..... If you want an accurate gun, the difference in just going up to Douglas is HUGE."
If you really want to get down to it, the K-31, with their ammo, really super match grade stuff for .50 cents around, might be a really great place to start.
If the gun doesn't shoot, buy a custom barrel?
Still, the Swiss are famous for their accuracy.
How am I arguing this?
Anyway, a Remmington 700 was recommended to me by a friend of mine that IS a retired SWAT SNIPER. Good to start with, even though they are a push feed, and plenty of cheap upgrades and stuff to add.
I'm sorry for being subtle. To put it the way a riflesmith I know puts it:
"All factory barrels are pretty much c..... If you want an accurate gun, the difference in just going up to Douglas is HUGE."
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You just made me lose it. Back in the early 80's a group of us started groundhog hunting. One person showed up with a WWI Mauser. To this day I still remember how hard we all laughed.
I'm sorry, I don't see these early military guns fairing well at all in any kind of long range contest. In all honesty I can't ever remember seeing anyone show up at a shoot with one either.
I shot my No1 MkIII* at a tactical rifle match. Talked to the director and he signed off on it. Had a great time, did alright for a guy using a rifle built in 1941. Came in last by a long shot to the ARs but it was fun.
2010 Camp Perry Vintage Match Results
http://clubs.odcmp.com/cgi-bin/report_eventAward.cgi?matchID=5690&eventID=14&awardID=1
Swiss shoot pretty darn well with their rifles.
By the way, I wonder how a K-31, with a new barrel, and that Swiss match grade ammo would do?
I'm starting to think about rebarreling to 6.5-08 on my 30-06...
http://clubs.odcmp.com/cgi-bin/report_eventAward.cgi?matchID=5690&eventID=14&awardID=1
Swiss shoot pretty darn well with their rifles.
By the way, I wonder how a K-31, with a new barrel, and that Swiss match grade ammo would do?
I'm starting to think about rebarreling to 6.5-08 on my 30-06...
sarduy
Member
if you go back in time to 1940, i want a mosin as a sniper rifle, if i have to pick something today i want a M24. or better yet a Accuracy International AWSM .338
different time, different rifles. but untill then, i'll keep my remington 700 sps 30-06 DM
different time, different rifles. but untill then, i'll keep my remington 700 sps 30-06 DM
".308 is old school. The Army is currently rebuilding all the rifles with .300 Win Mag as the caliber of choice. "Hmmm the .308 is a proven cartridge..And the .338 Lapua is probably one of the more efficient cals..But that being said...
You can pick up used 700 Sendero's for around that kind of money which gives you a decent base rifle..Hard to get a good sniping rifle for 800.00...You will as some have already said probably have to build one..The 700 action is a good start..
You can pick up used 700 Sendero's for around that kind of money which gives you a decent base rifle..Hard to get a good sniping rifle for 800.00...You will as some have already said probably have to build one..The 700 action is a good start..
george d dennis
Member
i dont know if he shot 1,000 yards. what did carlos hathcock use in vietnam?
i read his book years ago, but forgot the rifle he used.
i read his book years ago, but forgot the rifle he used.
unwise11
Member
He used a Winchester Model 70 in .30-06
He also used an M2 on a custom tripod.
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