So did the army get it right when they picked the M9?

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CarbineKid

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From everythign I read it would appear that most felt the US Army should never have gone with the Beretta. I wonder does anyone here fell they may have done it right and picked the better weapon? Will anyone defend the Beretta? Im not looking for a 45 vs 9mm debate again :banghead: Im just wondering if anyone feels the Beretta is the superior pistol.
 
:rolleyes: It is a done deal as the military is now acquiring different pistols to replace the Beretta.

Some of my folks COULD shoot the Beretta better but when the bullet got there... Poor shots with the .45 were poor shots with the new gun. I prefered the .45.
 
If the purpose of choosing the Beretta was to go 9mm then no the Army didn't get it right. I can think of at least two semi-auto pistol manufacturers that make way better pistols than Beretta does.

If the purpose was to go NATO standard pistol caliber then they did do it right as not only did they switch to 9mm but they made a NATO member nation happy by choosing one of its manufacturer's products. Of course they could have accomplished the same thing by choosing to go with a SIG or CZ so I guess the Army just screwed the pooch all around.
 
From the standpoint of ammo standardization with NATO members they did OK.

I don't favor the Beretta. The trigger on the ones I tried is long and spongy, the grip is large, and I just prefer other handguns.

The late Col. Hackworth wrote a column saying the troops would be better off with a saturday night special. That was going way too far, but I think there were, and are, better nines available than the M9.
 
Let's remember that the whole world of handguns looked a lot different 20 years ago, when they picked the M9. Many of us (including LEOs) still considered revolvers the top choice for a carry weapon, and many semi-autos that are popular today didn't exist back then. Ruger was scrambling to complete the P85 in time for the competition and missed the deadline. I think we'd all agree that the Ruger P-series has come a long way since the P85.

Would it win the competition today? I doubt it. Was it a good choice in 1985? absolutely.
 
The pistol is part a very small part of the problem. The major issue were the requirements and standards that had to be met in order for the Beretta to be adopted. Poor established requirements + low standards = unsatisfactory product.

If the requirement was for 9mm and 9mm ball is a less than ideal cartridge, then any pistol adopted would fire a less than ideal cartridge.

If the requirement was for DA/SA, then any pistol adopted would have been DA/SA. Some gripe that DA/SA sucks, but any pistol adopted would have been DA/SA.

so on and so forth
 
Well it aint a CZ is it...nuff said. But, there are far worse choices than the Beretta. The caliber is perfectly fine, particularly in light of the fact that .mil folks need lots o' capacity when bad guys are shooting back at them.
 
When they were doing the testing the Sig p-226 came out on top, But the beretta was cheaper when spare parts and such were figuered in...I don't care for the M-9 but it sure is used by a lot of countrys, I guess that says somthing. I vote bring back the 1911a1..... :D
 
the M9, just like the M16, was all about politics and making money :eek:

The way it was explained to me is that beretta was making junk pistols in the 80s and some politicians decided they should buy stock in beretta for cheap and then make the military use it since they needed either new 1911s or a new handgun. Once the military contract got filled beretta was making alot of money and the quality of the pistols gradually got better and the stock prices rose, making the politicians rich.
 
The goal was to find a durable, reliable and accurate 9mm. In that, the military succeeded. While I (on active duty then as now) would have preferred the SIG 226, I have no major issues with the M9 (other than the slide-mounted safety system).

By the way, MattW, Beretta has never made "junk pistols."

Here's a good synopsis that's been kicking around the gun forums for a long time (I would attribute it, but I don't even know the original source, but it's been verified as reasonably accurate):

The Beretta Model 92FS is the Italian gunmaker's flagship pistol. In the early 1970s, Carlo Beretta, Giuseppe Mazzetti, and the prolific Vittorio Valle began work on a successor to the Model 951 pistol. The Model 92, as it was dubbed in 1976, corrected many of the perceived faults of its forerunner. Foremost were the 951's awkward cross bolt safety and limited 8 round magazine capacity. The Model 92 also introduced a double-action trigger mechanism and an alloy frame. However, it retained the tilting-block locking mechanism and distinctive open-top slide.

The new design quickly gained a 40,000 unit contract from the Brazilian military; however, Italian police agencies wished a redesign of the manual safety. The original 92 had a frame-mounted sear-blocking safety (much like the Colt 1911), and Europeans preferred a firing-pin locking safety and decocker like Walther designs. So later in 1976, the pistol was redesigned to incorporate the desired safety, creating the 92S. Italian police and military orders quickly followed as promised, as did an order from the Indonesian military.

Another boast arrived when the US military's Joint Services Small Arms Program (JSSAP) began a search for a NATO-standard handgun to replace the venerable Colt Model 1911. The lead agency for this program was the US Air Force. While perhaps an odd choice at first glance, the USAF was particularly interested in replacing their hodgepodge of service handguns, which included a large number of .38 Special revolvers. The issue had been forced by the US Congress' refusal to fund acquisition of additional .38 special ammunition.

Beretta made a special version of the 92S (92S-1) for the JSSAP tests which included a repositioned magazine release, an ambidextrous safety, serrated front and back straps, and enlarged sights with white inlaid markings. After a year of testing, the USAF announced that the Beretta had beaten out its competitors and recommended its adoption. The competitors included the Colt SSP, the Star Model 28, the Smith & Wesson 459A, the FN GP35, the FN 'Fast Action' Hi-Power, the FN Double Action Hi-Power, the HK P9S, and the HK VP70.

However, the US Army was still peeved over having the M16 rifle forced on it because of the USAF in the early 1960s. They seized upon the poor performance of the control M1911A1 pistols to suggest that the USAF tests were unscientific and flawed (to be fair, the specific M1911A1 pistols used were at least 35 years old at the time of the test). The US Army went as far to even disagree with the consistency of the mud used in the environmental tests! With the assistance of the General Accounting Office, the US Army was able to convince Congress to prevent procurement.

In 1981, the US Army was given control of the JSSAP pistol trials, and the search began again. 85 requirements were laid down for the winning XM9 pistol; 72 were mandatory while 13 were desirable. Only four pistols were entered this time: the Beretta 92SB (an improved 92S-1), the HK P7M13, the S&W 459A, and the SIG-Sauer P226. However, all four failed, and strangely, the Beretta now finished dead last, even behind the M1911A1.

Congress and the GAO were infuriated by the waste of money with no apparent results. Procurement funds for additional .45 ACP ammunition was withheld until the US Army could formulate a test series that a manufacturer could pass. The XM9 trials started again in January 1984. During the mean time, Beretta had improved the 92SB again, calling the resulting pistol the 92SB-F. The competitors included the Colt SSP, the FN Double Action Hi-Power, the HK P7M13, the SIG-Sauer P226, the S&W 459, the Steyr GB, and the Walther P88. In the end, only the P226 and 92SB-F were considered to have passed all of the tests.

After a series of bids in which SIG-Sauer was the low bidder, Beretta was finally given the contract due to a lower price quoted on its spare parts. Needless to say, SIG-Sauer was extremely annoyed, and there were allegations that Beretta was shown SIG-Sauer's final bid in order to under-cut it. Moreover, the other manufacturers were upset for a variety of reasons. Several had worked up bids before they were told that they were in fact not eligible. Moreover, S&W's pistols had failed due to a mathematical error while converting to English units from Metric in determining firing pin energy.

After a series of GAO and Congressional investigations, another series of tests similar to the XM9 trials were ordered for 1987. However, these started off with controversy as well. The US Army fought to keep the 92F (now the M9) from being retested since it had passed the XM9 trials. SIG-Sauer insisted that the P226 didn't need to retested either since it had passed XM9 as well. On the other hand, S&W noted that the Beretta M9s were no longer being built to the standards of the XM9 trials, having received relaxation of several requirements including accuracy.

Around the same time, reports of M9 slide separations were becoming rampant in both the US Navy and Army. The Navy SEALs were arguably abusing their pistols by firing over-pressure ammunition in suppressed examples, while the Army's separations were blamed on the use of recycled slides from a French contract which contained tellurium. Events were becoming so bad that a Safety-of-Use message recommended that slides be replaced after 3000 rounds had been fired; however, this recommendation was lowered to 1,000 rounds after a M9 suffered a slide separation with less than 3,000 rounds fired.

Beretta took a two-pronged response. First, they sued the Department of the Navy because the SEAL Teams had leaked info of the slide separations to Ruger. Second, they designed a hammer pin with an over-sized head to fit into a groove machined in the slide. Thus, if the slide separated, it would not strike the user in the face. Commercially, these pistols are known as the 92FS

The XM10 tests were finally rescheduled for 1988 after being canceled the year before for lack of participation. Beretta refused to submit samples, so the US Army used off-the-shelf M9s. Beretta protested this, but since they had already refused samples, this protest was rejected. SIG-Sauer also refused to submit samples, standing on principle that they had passed XM9 the first time. S&W submitted their 459 again, and Ruger submitted their new P85.

Again, there were allegations of impropriety. The Army refused to relax their requirement for a chrome-lined bore, even if the barrel was made from stainless steel. Moreover, the S&W failed tests that they had passed in XM9. They were the only pistols to pass the XM9 accuracy requirements, yet they failed the XM10. The S&W also failed the corrosion tests in spite of the fact that the affected parts which failed XM10 were made from stainless steel, while the same parts in the successful XM9 samples were made from carbon steel. Ruger wasn't provided any reasons as to why their samples failed.

However, in spite of the military controversy the Beretta 92F has an excellent reputation in US law enforcement agencies, including the Los Angeles PD (the largest vocal exception is the NYPD's Emergency Service Unit). No slide separations have been reported, and the only part known for excessive wear has been the locking block. This was recently redesigned with radiused corners to prevent breakage. The 92FS has a stellar reputation for accuracy and reliability, and as long as the user has large enough hands it is an excellent choice in a 9x19mm pistol.
 
the short of it...
I was in the army when to change came and the "new" M9 was issued.without getting long winded here it was a good move.you have to remember that the last 1911's the army bought was back during WW II.trust me they were just plain wore out.it was a good thing to have a new pistol.while not a big fan of the 9mm ball round for a combat round it was time for the ol war horse colt 1911 to retire and me not long afterward :) .
I have a good friend that in 5th SF group and he summed it up best last weekend when we were talking about the M9.great pistol for a peace time army!.he doesn't carry a M9.
pete
 
As was previously mentioned, both the Beretta 92-F and Sig P-226 passed the Army's tests, and the Beretta won the contract because the total package (weapon & spare parts) came out less than the Sigs.

Looking back with 20-20 hindsight, the Army should have gone with the Sig because it is more durable. We haven't heard of any 226's having to be specially modified so the slide won't fly through the shooter's head when it breaks.

Someone should look at the durability of the M-11, and consider phasing out the M-9 and arming all soldiers with the more compact M-11. Still a high capacity, no need to have different weapon systems for soldiers and concealed/pilot carry.

Just my $.02 worth. ;)
 
I heard Italy was also able to bribe politicians with access to an airbase capable of handling B-52s...

Regardless, I don't care much for the M9 from personal experience with the civilian version. The open slide doesn't seem to serve a purpose and could increase amount of grime to enter the working mechanisms of the pistol. The slide mounted safety is bass-ackwards for those of us who grew up on the 1911. I am more of a Glock man now but never have been a DA/SA guy. The grip is far too big for a 9mm. I think we would be better served with the SIG if it must be DA/SA and would probably choose a Glock 17 if it was up to me, with the HK USP Varient 1/2 also being considered.
 
I don't mind the Beretta 92FS/M9. I used to carry one back in the late Eighties, when I was young and didn't know any better. They are reliable, accurate, soft shooters that work pretty well. In today's world of subcompact lightweights, they're a bit porky for 15 rounds of 9mm, but back then they were at the top of the semi-auto heap.
 
The sig had the stamped steel slide that was pinned at the time of the adoptation. Had it been choosen, we would probably have had lots of slide problems.
 
I'll put my 15 year old 92FS up against any pistol out there. It has a lot of rounds through it and never has failed to go bang.

Saying the Beretta is a bad pistol because the grip is too big is like saying a pair of Nike's are crap because they are too big for your feet.
 
In a word, No.

I was in before the change when they were looking to replace the 1911. I was a SNCO in a General staff section. The only rationale I ever heard was they wanted a NATO standard pistol. Don't know why that was important since the service rifle wasn't NATO standard. If that's the only reason you are changing from a tried and true performer, nothing good will come from it.

Mind you I'm sure my bias towards .45s is showing.
 
For those of you that mentioned the CZ...well wasn't that the "commie gun" of the time. I don't think the US would have even consided it.
 
There's no history like revisionist history it seems. Let's remember that what became the XM-9 trials had actually been going on even earlier, since '83 IIRC.

What was the state of the art in 9mms in the early to mid 80s?

Beretta--92SB, 92F, 92FS beat the SIG outright in first XM9 trial, tied in the second.
BHP--SAO, wasn't going to be adopted.
CZ--Deep behind the iron curtain.
Glock--untested start-up, barely heard of. Glock not willing to release patents anyways.
HK--P7 failed the trials
Ruger--P-85, which was still a rough prototype. Failed
SIG--P226 passed all tests, but stamped, pinned slide would've been a GI problem.
Smith--459A, failed tests.
Walther--What became the P-88, expensive as all get out. Didn't enter or did get entered and failed.

For its time, the Beretta 92 series was arguably the most refined design available. All others had teething issues of varying severity.

As for being replaced, Uncle Sam just ordered 70,000 new ones. I wouldn't hold any breath waiting for a general replacement.

I served around the time of the M-9 adoption. Our 1911s were clapped out. The 92FS was the state of the art in the mid-80s and even today it is only "beat" on size and ergonomics issues, the first not really mattering on an open carried pistol, the latter all about personal preference.

I like the Beretta 92FS. I never really liked any of Uncle Sam's beat to hell community property weapons though, so maybe I wouldn't like the M-9, especially if it came with Checkmate mags. :uhoh:
 
Not that it holds any merit, but I'm currently in Iraq and those M9's are junk. One of the pilot's let me fondle his M9 and where the finished had been nicked it was covered up with a black sharpe marker. That's not a ding against Beretta, however nicks in the finish wouldn't be present under most conditions on a Glock. The slide failed to go into full battery with no magazine or round in the chamber, note the gun was relatively clean, these are pilot's we're talking about who regard carrying these things around as a pain in the butt.
One of our pilot's, a major, felt it was silly to carry a pistol, to think that it'd do any good in a hostile environment against AK armed opponents was ridiculous he said. I put the safety on and the hammer didn't even go fully down until the slide was manipulated. Again, this may not be attributed to the manufacturer, but in the long run, as these weapons are supposed to endure, I wouldn't want one. I have been considering one for awhile and after this experience, am thinking......ummm......no.
These guys don't think much of the 9mm either, granted they haven't used them in any situations, but either way, confidence in the ability of a weapon makes the user more confident, these guys aren't confident with this pistol. Note, again, I'm talking about Army pilots.
In my personal opinion, the 1911 should have never been considered for replacement, event after event has made this glaringly obvious not only in the military world (hence there current dizzying search for a .45 caliber replacement), but the civilian world as well (the Miami FBI shootout) proves the shortcomings.
There was nothing wrong with the 1911, users couldn't use it well? Maybe they should've been disqualified from positions requiring the use of this equipment. Pilot applicants that can't learn the ropes don't become pilots do they? Firefighters that can't lift the ladders aren't qualified, what makes the military any different when recruits can't use the equipment, don't make them, or require more training until they can use it efficiently.
The replacement of the 1911 was a fumble and now, in new combat conditions, they are reminded that some equipment didn't require replacement.
I currently own two Glock 19's and a Glock 21, but as soon as I get home I'm getting an "ole" 1911, just because.
 
So lemme get this straight...

It's O.K. to call the barrel and a few other parts "consumables" and replace them at determined intervals on a 9mm handgun, but when a .45 needs a little TLC it's junk and needs replaced? Our fine politicians certainly buggered us on this one.
And just to rehash a point, the M9 was not, until recently and after modification, able to digest a steady diet of NATO 9mm. NATO ammo is loaded to MUCH higher pressures and that is what caused the failures, sometimes resulting in injury and death to the shooter. To the two or three folks who dispute this every time this is discussed, how often do you hear of the same failures in civilian pistols?
Decently made handgun, very accurate when I did my part, but wholly innapropriate for the role it was to fill.
 
So does the M11 have a positive safety or is it a decocker like civilian SIGs?
Same pistol.
those M9's are junk. One of the pilot's let me fondle his M9 and where the finished had been nicked it was covered up with a black sharpe marker. That's not a ding against Beretta, however nicks in the finish wouldn't be present under most conditions on a Glock. The slide failed to go into full battery with no magazine or round in the chamber, note the gun was relatively clean, these are pilot's we're talking about who regard carrying these things around as a pain in the butt.
Well, that answers that. Also - a nick in the finish of a military pistol? I'm not understanding the problem here ...
It's O.K. to call the barrel and a few other parts "consumables" and replace them at determined intervals on a 9mm handgun, but when a .45 needs a little TLC it's junk and needs replaced? Our fine politicians certainly buggered us on this one.
Well -- for those us who actually had to carry and use those 1911s back then -- they desperately needed to be replaced, as Boats so correctly pointed out. Some of you may not understand just what type of shape some of those pistols (some were 40+ years old) were in. Some had locking lugs completely worn down, among other things. It simply was not cost-effective to keep trying to repair them.

And finally -- the original post, I believe, presupposed the mission of the handgun trials to select a new service pistol was to select a NINE-MILLIMETER pistol. As stated before, since it had to be a 9mm, the selection was as good as any government-contracted choice could be.
 
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