So did the army get it right when they picked the M9?

[CAnnoneer]

I've read carefully through this thread and the only legitimate complaints I can distill are:

1) has problems when dirty
2) some parts break eventually
3) too big for some hands

Can anyone think of their most favorite gun and say the above three do not apply to it?

Come on, the Beretta is a nice quality gun and the military could have done much worse, especially considering the schizophrenic nature of our political system and federal bureaucracy.

 

[355sigfan]

I've read carefully through this thread and the only legitimate complaints I can distill are:

1) has problems when dirty
2) some parts break eventually
3) too big for some hands

Can anyone think of their most favorite gun and say the above three do not apply to it?

Come on, the Beretta is a nice quality gun and the military could have done much worse, especially considering the schizophrenic nature of our political system and federal bureaucracy.
__________________
Buy American, buy Ruger.

Working at a department that used to issue Beretta's and having owned 4 at different times I have some experience with them. They have problems in the cold. They have problems when dirty, they have problems with parts breakedge especially the springs and the locking blocks go out too. They are very reliable under normal weather conditions if maintained. That being said I would rather have a 1911, Glock and a Sig in that order. Our issue Glocks have served us far better than our previous Berettas ever did.
Pat

 

[ghost squire]

:nm

 

[Boats]

I'm still waiting for your photo of the HK P7M13's hammer, strikers having kept Glock out of the XM-9 trials and all unfairly.

Nothing's worse on these forums than a Glock fanboy.

 

[355sigfan]

The P7 was also dropped because it did not have a hammer. Go read the test.
Pat

 

[Island Beretta]

Hi :

Werewolf: Since the pistol trails in the US, Sigs and Beretta have competed in other police/military trials throughout the world and as far as I can remember the Sig has always lost to the Beretta. To take it a step further, some police depts in Switzerland (land of Sig) have switched from Sigs to Glocks. There are tons of info on this.. if you want to know more, do some research..Frankly I am tired of hearing this conspiracy theory of the sig vs the beretta..


CXM: S&W did win the right to trial another pistol but did not submit the pistols when testing time came..Please remember that it was not one trial that was done, but a number of trials over a number of years, if memory serves me right about 7 years.

..I am out of here, don't think I will posts to any such threads again, (yawn)..

 

[Werewolf]

Come on, the Beretta is a nice quality gun and the military could have done much worse,

Well - I suppose they could have gone with Ruger but then not even Michael Moore would be low enough to do that...

 

[355sigfan]

Werewolf: Since the pistol trails in the US, Sigs and Beretta have competed in other police/military trials throughout the world and as far as I can remember the Sig has always lost to the Beretta.
END QUOTE

Thats not true. Sig beat the compact Beretta for the M11 trials. Sig beat the Beretta for nearly every federal agency. An area owned by sig until recently now the FBI issues Glocks. THe DEA issues Sigs as does the Homeland Security department. In fact Beretta has lost more ground than Sig to GLocks overall.

Time to eat a crow on on point. I did some research and its true Glock did not submit his pistol due to the patent requirments not because of the hammer issue. I appoligize on that point.

Pat

 

[JohnKSa]

Nothing's worse on these forums than a Glock fanboy.

Hmmm... I think I could find something worse without trying too hard.

 

[gopguy]

The M9 is a mistake, as long as we are going to adhere to the Hague conventions :banghead: and be stuck with sucky ball ammo we need to move back to the .45acp. Reports from Mesopotamia have indicated it is taking several hits with 9mm ball from either the M9 or the M11 to drop the terrorists still wreaking havoc over there. The Marine Corps, always seeking better ways to kill the enemy (God Bless them!) have wisely ordered large numbers of new MEUSOC pistols from Kimber and Springfield Armory. The new Kimber Warrior is the civilian version of this gun and except for the M1913 picatinny rail (the Marines use a Dawson rail) it is the same gun. Hopefully this will help them in house clearing operations and they can send more Wogs to Allah. Tim

 

[Boats]

Hmmm... I think I could find something worse without trying too hard.

I don't mind people pimping Glock, but they should at least get their facts straight just once, maybe. At least try.

 

[JohnKSa]

Reports from Mesopotamia have indicated it is taking several hits with 9mm ball from either the M9 or the M11 to drop

That's exactly the kind of performance I'd expect from any handgun. Even with the best self-defense ammunition available today, "dropping" a person with any "service pistol class" handgun in combat is almost guaranteed to require several hits.

 

[CAnnoneer]

Well - I suppose they could have gone with Ruger but then not even Michael Moore would be low enough to do that...

Why do you say that? Is there anything wrong with the Ruger? As far as I can gather from the thread, their failure was that they did not make the deadline.

I don't mind people pimping Glock, but they should at least get their facts straight just once, maybe. At least try.

True. But the glockers are not alone in wanting to see their baby carry the military contract; they just seem to complain above average.

I remember how excited I was when the military ordered 5,000 Rugers, but then it turned out they were for the Iraqi security force.

 

[cane]

Two things to consider, first most of the personnel isued the M-9 have never used a pistol before, therefore the safety doesn't work the wrong way as all the 1911 fans state. Second, I don't think that there is a place for pistols at all in the modern military. I'm sure someone will bring up special ops personnel, but for general service military personnel a PDW or M-4 would serve them better.

 

[Werewolf]

Why do you say that? Is there anything wrong with the Ruger? As far as I can gather from the thread, their failure was that they did not make the deadline.

Just ignore me. I've got a hard on for Ruger. I've owned two of them and both were the proverbial POS. In addition I've fired a number of their .45 Auto models that friends had and their accuracy was horrible. Maybe I just had bad luck with them. Add in Ruger's politics and well - if that company dropped off the face of the planet this instant my only regret would be for their employees not the owners or management who can all roast in hell for all I care.

 

[carebear]

cane,

I disagree about handguns utility in the modern military.

For general troop use, I think you are discounting too much the fact that it isn't just the high-speed guys doing house-to-house searches and the like. There are still plenty of situations in the urban warrens we we almost exclusively be fighting in in the future where having one hand free can be a multiplier of effectiveness. Anyway, aside from specific tactical arguments, there is also the most important dash of reality to consider.

Where pistols aren't available as issue, troops just pick them up.

Effective or not, possession by the troops is a proven security blanket-type morale booster. To eliminate them, you'd have to run some pretty stringent regulations (shake-downs and the like) in the middle of a conflict. That isn't going to help your troops feel good about their leadership. Better a quality, armory-maintainable issue item than whatever they can beg, borrow or steal on the battlefield.

As we've seen in every conflict of length, even if you just issue the average troop a rifle and tell them no pistols, 90% will soon be packing them anyway.

 

[p35]

While I don't see a need to get rude about it, I agree that Glocks would be a poor choice. They are known to be easy to ND. With all the horror stories I've heard on this board about careless/stupid weapon handling in the military, I would expect a lot of injuries. Glocks are good weapons for serious shooters, but the military has to plan for the lowest common denominator.

My choice would be a Ruger- simple, reliable, sturdy as hell, accurate, low priced, and American made.

Anybody remember the incident at Fairchild AFB a few years ago when some nut came on base with an AK-47 intending to kill as many people as possible? An SP stopped it before it got started with several shots from an M-9 from about 55 yards away. That SP gets most of the credit, of course, but some part of it goes to his having a good weapon.

 

[CAnnoneer]

+1 carebear

A pistol is a backup, a close-quarters weapon, a melee weapon, a pet and a friend And yes, soldiers in WW2 would massively pick up, capture, trade for, or steal sidearms. Just because some flyboys or rear-echelon chair-polishers think they should not be bothered to carry them, does not decrease their value to the ground fighters.

I think we are going to see much more urban warfare in the new century, so I would not be surprised if we also see a massive swing from full-size rifles to carbine versions. I also predict the use of more advanced and heavier body armor, and the concomitant swing to AP like the the FiveseveN pistol and the P90 subgun.

Finally, if pistols are so useless, it is difficult to explain why the FiveseveN is strictly limited to gov/mil orders.

 

[cane]

First, remember pistols are only issued to a few people. Soldiers for the most part are not issued a rifle (carbine) and a pistol. I've cleared rooms and would rather have an M-4, or a shotgun over any pistol. A pistol is hard to master, 50 rounds famfire twice a year doesn't cut it. I was once told by someone with a lot of experence that a pistol is a gridge weapon, when you have to use it (in combat) you know you're going to die and you're just trying to take some with you. As I type this my FN FiveseveN is laying on the computer, and I am neither military or government.

 

[Blacklabman]

I do not like the 9mm. I'll be honest, and say that right off the bat. I did not/do not, like like the M9 pistol when I was Active(1812 MIA1), in the Reserves or now as a Civilian. Lots of FTF's, and FTE's. Broken parts, and the magazines were crap. This was with my units issue pistols, and other units I saw as a PMI. It was no fun to carry in the issue shoulder holsters.
I do not like Beretta shotguns with the POA problems with their O/U line is seeing on the Sporting Clay's and FITASC circuit's. I do not like it, that my Xtrema 1 shot 10" left a 40 yards from the pattern board. Sent back to Beretta USA twice. Both times they agreed there was a severe problem. Both times it was sent back, with the problem not fixed. Second time, they bent the crap out of the barrel, also warping the vent rib, and chipping the camo paint along the way. They sent it back to me that way. Beretta does not equal anything near quality. They have since dropped the 1 in favor of the Xtrema II.
With all that said, I'm biased. I simply have no use, for anything with Beretta on it anymore.

Glocks? OK
H&K's? overpriced/overhyped tupperware with manual safety's.
Sig's? Great. I do like the P220 and P226. Fine weapons.
1911's of the Les Baer, and Ed Brown variety? Pure shooting Heaven

IMHO THE military should go back to what they nver should have left in the first place. The .45 ACP and the 1911.

Sorry to have gotten a tad off topic.

 

[Berettafan21]

Hand size

I have what I consider to be small hands I wear a size 7 1/4 ring, my middle finger from web to tip is 3 inches, lenght of hand from palm to tip of finger is 7 inches and width of hand is 3 3/8 inches. I also own a beretta 96 which I find fits my hand very nicely. Just my thoughts.

 

[BeLikeTrey]

honestly

as much as I would've loved to see the VP70m in action in our armed forces (if one of our poster's post was correct that it was in the running) due to its multipurpose capability, a nice high cap .45 would be my ideal carry in a warzone. The pistol is a warm blanket so to speak, and a bigger bore would make me feel all that much warmer...and fuzzy. Still would like to have that vp70 too though

 

[CAnnoneer]

As I type this my FN FiveseveN is laying on the computer, and I am neither military or government.

Ha! How did you manage that? FN's official site states they sell only to gov/mil.

Hmmm, actually, do I really want to know...?

 

[355sigfan]

The department could have sold it to him as its not a restricted item. But why would you want that pea shooter. I checked the velocity stats on the V max 5.7 load its only going 1650 from the pistol thats 240 footpounds. Thats a 22 mag from a rifle. Wow. Yawn.
Pat

 

[grendelbane]

if that company dropped off the face of the planet this instant my only regret would be for their employees not the owners or management who can all roast in hell for all I care.

As a Ruger shareholder, I find that comment quite amusing!

Starbucks will not sell you a 20 round magazine for your Mini-14 either. Does that make them evil? Some companies sell coffee, some sell black rifles, and some sell sporting guns. Get over it.