US Army handgun

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You know, if the M9 is a perfectly serviceable weapon and is just reaching the end of it's useful service life, it seems to me that a perfectly suitable solution would be...

(insert drum roll here)

REPLACE THE EXISTING STOCK OF M9 SERVICE WEAPONS WITH NEW SERVICE WEAPONS.

Easy-peasy...write up a new contract.


My job here is done. You're welcome.

;)
 
This horse has made plenty of laps around THR already. But in any case.

Pistols do serve an important role in military service. Most soldiers on my small base overseas carried M9s regularly. During base attacks (of which several) the M9 came out to get to the rifle or crew served or even the trucks if a roll out was needed. And it made interacting with the locals easier, as a pistol is seen as a sign of power and authority. Even as a junior enlisted soldier, I had much more positive reactions with locals because I had a handgun. And I was given authority to grow some stubble facial hair.

It is highly unlikely that the military will go with a firearm chambered in something other than 9mm. The supply chains in place have been for awhile, and the military hates changing their logistics. They are also unlikely to pick a sensible choice based on factors we look for. A civilian concealed carrier will stress reliability and accuracy over unit cost. The military is "backwards" to this thinking and will consider cost and maintenance over functionality.
 
Chief- True statement, except that the M9 isn't a perfect weapon. Not even close. No weapon is perfect. But as technology improves, and the missions and composition of the force changes, along with the tactics, techniques, and procedures, antiquated or worn out equipment is upgraded to meet these new challenges as they evolve. That's what took us from horses to tanks and APC's, a wooden fleet to our modern Navy, bi-planes to the modern attack jets that are giving those savages hell in the sand, and so on. Think about the days of the Navy from your time as a recruit, and compare them to today. From the time I was a highly motivated E-nothing at Ft Benning in 1987 to retirement at Ft Bragg in 2010, the Army sure changed alot, for better or worse.
 
herrwalther- the experiences you observed are a good example of the use of the service pistol in the force protection role- a very important role and one that is very likely given today's environment. Given the dynamic and "expeditionary" role of our modern forces, our weapons need to be as close as possible to being a one-tool-all-tasks solution, for any particular class of weapon system. Given this parameter, and with due deference to technology, part of checking these blocks is to select tools that are an improvement over previous designs, and have the characteristics of ease of use for ALL service members, reliability, minimal maintenance requirements, and equal or improved lethality. Under this thought process, its easy to see many prospects today for replacement of the M9. The rejection of the FN SCAR light as a M4 replacement in SOF reflects this thought process- we overwhelmingly wanted to retain our M4's, and SCAR light didn't have significant advantages in any area, bottom line. Yes, cost does play a major role, as does the ability of the manufacturer to provide timely delivery and services. For the $ factor alone, I wouldn't expect to see a service handgun from a company like HK, but who knows. I agree 100% on your assessment of retaining the 9mm as the service cartridge. The level of proficiency attained by MOST service members with a handgun, along with other limitations and logistics, makes the concept of adopting a more powerful caliber pure folly. The personnel who could get the most out of rounds like 40 S&W and 45 ACP have what they need, and don't source their weapons, ammo, or equipment through normal channels, or for that matter write checks from the same accounts anyway as the majority of the military.
 
Since the Beretta was adopted in 1985 the pistol market has totally changed. The most popular models for individuals and law enforcement today are polymer frame, striker fired pistols with pre-cocked triggers. The U.S. military is now interested in these pistols for the same reason everyone else is. The Beretta had a good 30-year run but the market has moved on.
 
Makster- you are absolutely right. But- not just the market, the technology, the training to support tactics, and the force composition.
 
Chief- True statement, except that the M9 isn't a perfect weapon. Not even close. No weapon is perfect. But as technology improves, and the missions and composition of the force changes, along with the tactics, techniques, and procedures, antiquated or worn out equipment is upgraded to meet these new challenges as they evolve. That's what took us from horses to tanks and APC's, a wooden fleet to our modern Navy, bi-planes to the modern attack jets that are giving those savages hell in the sand, and so on. Think about the days of the Navy from your time as a recruit, and compare them to today. From the time I was a highly motivated E-nothing at Ft Benning in 1987 to retirement at Ft Bragg in 2010, the Army sure changed alot, for better or worse.

FL-NC,

You keep bashing the Beretta M9 but I have yet to read your specific opinion of it's shortcomings that makes it(and the M9A3) unsuitable for combat duty.

You talk about technology improving along with tactics, etc… antiquated or worn out equipment is upgraded to meet these new challenges as they evolve. Yet the clearly antique Model of 1911 continues to live on in military service over 100 years after it was first adopted.

Generals want to spend money on bigger, more expensive equipment rather than just stay with proven battlefield equipment and upgrade them as needed. Perfect case is the A-10 Warthog. Originally designed to take out Ruskie tanks in Europe it has proven itself to be the ideal tank buster and ground support airplane in the sand box. Generals claim that multi-million and billion dollar aircraft can better perform the role of close ground support. So rather than sticking with a battle proven airplane that was paid for 20-30 years ago and upgrading it’s electronics and engines as needed these Generals want to put billion dollar aircraft on the deck within range of a variety of weapons such as shoulder fired missiles and AAA from old fashion guns such as the 50 caliber and 20mm.

9mm ball ammunition is the same whether fired from a Beretta, Glock and a High Point.

The M9A3 addresses the problem shooters with small hands have.

The Army likes big handguns…the Colt SAA, Model of 1911, Model of 1917 revolver and the Beretta M-9. S&W K-frames were used as a substitute standard as there were not enough guns to equip all of the military personnel in W.W.2.

Just for the record the Glock 17 first entered service with the Austrian military in 1982. The Beretta M9 was adopted in 1985!

The Glock has undergone four distinct upgrades (commonly called generations). So you want to adopt a handgun that is as old as Beretta M9 and has had been upgraded four times rather than simply upgrading the current service handgun at a lower cost and which can be phased in over time as the current models wear out.

I learned a long time ago not to discuss the problems Glocks have. Even 1911 fanboys are willing to discuss the weaknesses in the design and how to fix them.
 
Chief- True statement, except that the M9 isn't a perfect weapon. Not even close. No weapon is perfect. But as technology improves, and the missions and composition of the force changes, along with the tactics, techniques, and procedures, antiquated or worn out equipment is upgraded to meet these new challenges as they evolve. That's what took us from horses to tanks and APC's, a wooden fleet to our modern Navy, bi-planes to the modern attack jets that are giving those savages hell in the sand, and so on. Think about the days of the Navy from your time as a recruit, and compare them to today. From the time I was a highly motivated E-nothing at Ft Benning in 1987 to retirement at Ft Bragg in 2010, the Army sure changed alot, for better or worse.


It's a pistol. There is no such thing as a "perfect" pistol. (Or a perfect firearm, period.)

The military pistol sidearm does not need any fancy widgets like rails, optical sights, lasers, or any of that other stuff. It doesn't need to be sculpted, customized, or tricked out to be some kind of marksman weapon. It needs to be a reliable, functional pistol suited for it's intended purpose. Which, as others have pointed out, is NOT as any kind of a main battlefield weapon.

And if there are better choices out there, then pick one, run the dang thing through the tests, and buy a few train car loads to replace the existing M9 pistols.

As the old saying goes, "excrete bodily waste or get off the pot". There is absolutely no need to waste months/years and tens of millions of dollars on making this decision.

As General Milley said, this ain't rocket science.
 
Not quite accurate

BSA1,

The BERETTA has also been upgraded, many times in fact. The original BERETTA 92 had a framed mounted safety and a heel of the grip location for the magazine release.
Then, at the request of the Italian police agencies, BERETTA moved the safety to the slide and included a decocking feature which lowers the hammer when you engage the safety. This was necessary to compete with most of the other new 9m.m. pistols which had this feature.

Then they moved the magazine release to the present position behind the trigger guard, a necessity for the U.S. market and the U.S. military.
The U.S. military insisted on changes to the internal safety, so you could say that the M9 pistol was either the 3rd or 4th generation of the BERETTA 92. Then the U.S.M.C. requested the M9A1 with a rail attachment. Is that a fifth generation?

My BERETTA Brigadier would qualify as a 5th generation and the M9A3 using the VERTEC frame with straight grip and frame mounted attachment rail could be the 6th generation.

Guns, like most everything else get upgraded or improved or whatever you want to call the process to keep competitive with the other products they are being sold against. Do you remember the "GUN OF THE MONTH" series of semi autos that SMITH & WESSON sold?
I think the newer BERETTA 92 and M9's are better guns. I know that my newer BERETTA's have better triggers which are smoother, better sights, which are bigger and easier to see and a better magazine release than my old 92S, which was a nice gun anyway. They can also be improved by the use of the stronger Brigadier slide and VERTEC grip, which fits my average size hands better.

I do agree with the general in that I would not waste a hundred million dollars testing guns. I would give TRADOC a choice of the M9A3 or a GLOCK 19 or maybe both, since the DOD adopted both the M9 and M11 (SIG 228) for concealed carry. I have carried both on duty and think they are both very good.

Jim
 
BSA- I would be happy to explain the M9's shortcomings, all you had to do was ask. And for the record, the Glock is MY preferred sidearm, but I also believe the S&W M&P would be an excellent choice for the entire force, as I understand that the needs of the military are greater and more varied than my personal tastes, or the tastes of those in the units I formally served in. The first problem is the basic system of operation- transitional DA. This means that the concept of consistency is out the window, in relation to the trigger. Entire modules of training could be eliminated from POI's that are just dedicated to the integrated act of firing the first (DA) shot (we call it a presentation shot) and transitioning to the subsequent (SA) shots. With a striker fired system like the Glock OR S&W, that entire step is eliminated. This translates to consistency, which can be converted into speed and accuracy, not to mention the requirement to engage the off switch/decock in order to re-holster. Another major issue is parts breakage, specifically the locking block (which was copied from the WW2 German P38). This little gem fails on a frequent basis on the M9 pistol. While the mechanism helps in recoil management, it isn't reliable. It has been updated 3 times in design while I was in the service- not a widely known fact, and the change was recorded as a change to a part number- not a "generation" like Glock does. They continue to fail. I personally had 3 fail on me. As an instructor, I had to keep a plastic box full of them range side, and I frequently had to have that box reloaded by the armament section as I ran out of locking blocks. I did notice when Beretta developed the storm pistol, they decided to forgo the "proven locking system of the M9". In some SOF units, another "fix" (update?) was the replacement of stock slide assemblies and slide stops with those heavier ones originally made for the "brigadier" model. It was thought that this might alleviate the epidemic of locking block and slide failures we were continuing to experience. The slides did well, and they came with nice tritium sights, but the locking blocks continued to fail. It was so bad and so unpredictable, that prior to any deployment ALL locking blocks were replaced- at unit cost of $65 each, if memory serves. The DA trigger and controls of the M9 are difficult for "smaller" users to manipulate. Remember that about 14% of our force are females. During immediate action drills for malfunctions, the off switch is often inadvertently activated when wearing gloves, or when the user's hand(s) are wet. Considering that the idea of this drill is to get a pistol back into action in the middle of an active gunfight after a mechanical malfunction, clearing the malfunction and ending up with your weapon on SAFE is what we commonly refer to as BAD. Instructors call it a dead man's gun. Due to the semi-exposed trigger bar spring (located under the right grip) it is considered unsafe to replace the stock grips with rubber replacements for comfort or to aid in "gripability" because aftermarket grips made of rubber can contract in the extreme temperatures routinely encountered in combat. This contraction can result in the trigger bar spring becoming disengaged, and thus rendering the pistol inoperable. The only feasible alternative is to slip sections of bicycle inner tube rubber over the grip. This is also a common mod done to pistols like the Glock and MK23. The M9 pistol has been found to be especially sensitive to fine particulate matter (also known as dust). Strict and meticulous cleaning schedules must be adhered to in order to keep it functioning, even if it has not been fired. The magazines issued with the M9 pistol have also proven to be problematic. They are especially sensitive to dust, and the inside surfaces are quickly stripped of their finish due to friction from the spring rubbing them raw during normal use. This results in rapid onset corrosion, also requiring them to be disassembled and cleaned to prevent rounds from binding. While aftermarket mags have proven the least reliable, OEM mags still exhibit these effects, although typically at a slower rate. General QC appears to also be an issue with OEM mags. I have personally identified variations in spring lengths as much as 3" after disassembling brand new OEM magazines from the same box of mags. When performing routine maintenance, the practice of removing the grips to remove fine particulate matter must be done with caution. Inadvertent/unknown loss of 1 or more grip screw washer(s) will result in the grip screws over-travelling into the magazine well of the pistol when it is re-assembled. This will cause the magazine to be "locked" in, and difficult to remove without a prying tool, thereby making a reload in combat impossible. The remedy for this is for armorers and weapons sgts to apply a product like crazy glue in the screw holes, and permanently glue the washers into the grips to prevent loss. Crazy glue. In our guns. Existing supplies of M9 pistols lack accessory rails to facilitate the attachment of lights for use in low light conditions (these low light conditions occur about 50% of the time on our planet- daily-like clockwork). The only remedy for this (absent replacement of the entire weapon with another model with integral rail) is for the user to add a detachable rail to the pistol. This is yet another item that must be maintained and regularly checked to insure that it does not come loose, which may result in loss of the light/rail, mechanical malfunction of the weapon, or the weapon being hopelessly "locked" inside of the user's holster. This is another argument for handgun replacement with an integral rail, and to not revisit the idea of a more user-friendly design would just be foolish. M9 weight: 33 oz. Glock 19 weight: 23 oz., S&W M&P 9 full size- 24 oz (about 1/3 weight reduction). To address some of your other questions: use of the M1911 (and variants)- this pistol is only utilized as a standard issue item by 1 command in the DOD. It was identified by that specific command as a suitable item for their unique mission, and obtained through their own unique acquisition process. This is an all-male Special Operations unit, thus their requirements and processes of selecting and obtaining equipment are totally separate from those of the service branches, along with their specialized missions. Comparing the costs (initial costs, maintenance costs, training costs, etc.) of military aircraft with items like small arms isn't even a viable comparison, except in that it shows what "small potatoes" small arms really are. But since you mentioned aircraft, it is interesting to me that the crews that fly and maintain them are often issued the M11 (Sig 228) pistol. To protect themselves when their gazillion dollar airplane doesn't make the trip home. And speaking of the M11, do you find it odd that when the need for a more compact 9mm handgun was identified by the mil, the Sig 228 was chosen over a smaller M9 variant, such as the already extant "compact" or "centurion" models? No, a variant of the Sig 226 (which beat the 92 in all performace portions of the trial, and was subsequently adopted by NAVSPECWAR and the Coast Guard in a mid-sized 40 caliber version) was the tool that effectively performs that task. 9mm ammo has the same effects on a target at impact, regardless of how it got there. But it still requires the gun to function and the shooter to have the ability to make it all come together, which explains some of reasons High Point probably won't be considered in any future pistol trial(s). The Army used to like big rifles to, but missions and capabilities change, along with the composition of the force. Glock didn't even submit a pistol to the M9 trials in the 1980's. They probably couldn't have delivered the product on time if they had entered, and had subsequently won the bid. And at the time, no one in the mil wanted anything to do with a plastic gun. We all believed they would blow up, and that the whole thing was a joke. Just like those who resisted things like self-loading rifles in the 30's. The MAG 58 MG was developed in Belgium in 1958. It started replacing the M60MG in the early 90's. Now we call it the M240MG (Oops). The generational models of Glocks mostly reflect the evolution that follow the process of operational requirements, along with technological advancements in other areas- like weapon lights. The generational changes in the Glock pistols had little bearing on the original mechanism and system of operation. The changes to the M9 pistol (even though MOST of them did not result in a change of model or nomenclature) were largely the results of FAILURES in the original system. Some of which have yet to be definitively cured, multiple attempts notwithstanding.
 
Paragraphs would have made it much easier to wade through this little dissertation about the M-9's failings. That said, this poster is putting forth some seriously outdated info about the M-9 problems, particularly with regard to the locking block issues, which were resolved long ago.

Strict and meticulous cleaning schedules must be adhered to in order to keep it functioning, even if it has not been fired. The magazines issued with the M9 pistol have also proven to be problematic
Again, way outdated info. Cleaning the M-9 is ridiculously easy, and the magazine problems were resolved ten years ago once the crappy issue Checkmate mags went away (and most of us procured our own mags for deployments, anyway, especially when the superb MecGar 17 and 18 rounders became available).

Remember that about 14% of our force are females.
Yep, and my experience was that our qualification scores (female service-members) increased drastically, and were maintained at a higher level, when we switched over to the M-9 from the 1911A1.
 
This has been an interesting discussion, but it has been going for 3 pages already and is a subject which has been discussed many times in many threads.

I'm likely to be closing this thread in the next couple of days, so if anyone would like to add any closing comments, please do so soon...that isn't an invitation to attack anyone at this point.

I would like to support Old Dog's most important point in the post above: especially in an internet forum, Paragraphs are you Friends.

A wall of text, as in Post #59, is much more likely to be skipped over than it is to be read
 
OD/9mm- I didn't realize that "dissertation format" was key to posting on this forum, apologies. And my days of power point slide presentation on this and similar subjects are long over, since I no longer work for my former command in R&D, an instructor capacity, or Force Modernization.
I. I never said cleaning the M9 was difficult, however, given the dynamic and generally dirty nature of the combat theaters I've served in, keeping weapons systems and other items of equipment clean in order to insure their reliability is problematic, particularly during operations that may be several days in duration, or involve multiple objectives/missions during an even shorter time frame. The locking block issue was addressed 3 times during the period when I was issued the M9. The best they did on that was having less failures. According to those who I formerly worked with, they still fail frequently, considering the lower round counts by the support personnel in the command who are still issued the M9 (and receive training from operational personnel). In regards to the magazines, I stated that the problems arose from designs from ALL manufacturers, but that they were worse with aftermarket magazines. Did the Soldiers you were in charge of really have to purchase expendable items like magazines to support MTOE weapons for deployments? Whether they worked or not, that sounds like another conversation worth having with your commander!

II. While scores on Army pistol qualifications went up ACROSS THE BOARD after the M1911A1 was replaced (on a table that still hasn't been updated since the adoption of the M9) the results detailed in my previous post details problems that arose and were observed and duly recorded from exercises based on realistic scenarios that required employment of the sidearm, which replicated conditions Soldiers could expect to face on the modern battlefield. In other words, beyond the standard Army qualification tables (which are antiquated in every sense of the word)

I hope this cleared things up for you.
 
FL-NC,

I appreciate your position and analysis. Our local PD recently transitioned from the Berettas to the M&P 9s. And despite some grumbling among a few, which is normal with any change, the M&P has performed exceptionally well.

BOARHUNTER
 
Golden- I would say you are 100% correct in your statement, that the Beretta 92 has been upgraded numerous times into what could be considered "improved" models. However, the mil still has essentially the same weapon they obtained in the mid-80s, the only difference being the various models of locking blocks that were developed attempting to fix that issue, and the brig slides that were used in SOF. The only other "model" of M9 within the US mil (to my knowledge) would be the railed versions that apparently were adopted by the USMC.
 
I appreciate your position and analysis. Our local PD recently transitioned from the Berettas to the M&P 9s. And despite some grumbling among a few, which is normal with any change, the M&P has performed exceptionally well.

and TX DPS adopted the M&P and then quickly went back to Sigs.. Doesnt prove anything..

Government purchases are often not based on the best of anything, rather $$$$$...

In addition, FL-NC might want to brush up on the facts concerning the original XM9 trials...
http://gao.gov/products/NSIAD-86-122
 
The BERETTA has also been upgraded, many times in fact. The original BERETTA 92 had a framed mounted safety and a heel of the grip location for the magazine release.

I think the newer BERETTA 92 and M9's are better guns. I know that my newer BERETTA's have better triggers which are smoother, better sights, which are bigger and easier to see and a better magazine release than my old 92S, which was a nice gun anyway. They can also be improved by the use of the stronger Brigadier slide and VERTEC grip, which fits my average size hands better.

I agree completely that the Beretta 92 series is a evolution that keeps resulting in a better gun.

The Beretta 92, 92S and 92F.

The 92 was introduced in the early 1970's and saw limited production.

The 92S was adopted by Egypt and Israel (maybe other Middle East countries as well and served them for many years. In fact military surplus 92S are coming in the country and can be brought for about $300.00 plus shipping.

With the 92F during military testing the slide it was discovered that the slide would come off of the frame if it broke. The 92F was upgraded to the FS deign to capture the slide in case of breakage.

So the Beretta 92 series has been proven in desert conditions for 40 +/- years.

I am a W.W.2 buff especially with the war against Germany and Italy. The problems with grit and dust on weapons, vehicles and aircraft common and the military learned to deal with it. For example the Brits put a special air intake and filter on it's Spitfire fighters to screen the dust and grit. Our troops had to learn to deal with desert conditions also.

The Americans come along 45 - 50 years later and discover the same problems only our brass isn't smart enough to look back to W.W.2 on how to deal with it. Instead they act like it is some new previously unknown problem.

The reality is handguns in the military are and will continue to be limited by use of 9mm ball ammunition. Because of that I personally want a handgun that holds a lost of bullets cause I need them with 9mm ball! Spending multi-millions of dollars and a decade of administrative procedures for a new weapon that will not deliver a higher level of performance is a waste of money.



FN-NC,

I am not even going to attempt to read your long post with it's lack of paragraphs and sentence structure.
 
Hmm, well, better get my $0.02 in before the thread gets locked up tight.

I toted a M9 for big green back when they we actually wore green, then a M96 for a while in civilian employment, so I have some familiarity with the platform.

The DA/SA thing is simply bollocks put out by people trying to find a nit to pick. I shoot 1911s, CZs, and M&Ps mostly these days, switching back and forth from SA to DA/SA without thought or concern. I shoot IDPA with my CZ Phantom, starting of course hammer down. I work, and do all requisite training and qualifications, with my M&P. No problems. If shooters are having problems with DA/SA guns, an empty shell casing over the front sight will do wonders.

The safety being activated doing an immediate action drill is a problem that comes up from time to time. No real way to fix that unless you move the safety back to where his holiness John Browning put it ( ;) )

The exposed trigger bar did seem to have a secondary function as a vacuum cleaner in that it collected all available dirt in the immediate environment. Never had it stop the gun though, just made it more crunchy.

Some magazines from a specific manufacturer were garbage, they were quickly identified and eliminated. Old magazines developed feed lip issues, but that's the history of metal magazines. The same problem happens with old GI M-16 magazines. I've always thought that once a magazines feed lips have bent, it's time to can it. The US Army however believes that they should just be bent back... over and over and over again. On the plus side, M9 magazines work just fine in the .40 M96, so there's that bonus.

I never worried about the lack of a rail on the M9. The number of times a weapon mounted light is used on a pistol in combat is vanishingly low outside of Hollywood productions. I know for certain the last thing I ever wanted to do in the middle of a firefight is have a light in my hands. Yeah, the door kickers will need a light, but if a guy with an M9 is leading them in, terrible terrible things have already happened.

Overall, the M9 is a fine platform if you like gripping the wrong end of a baseball bat. The new M9A3 takes a step towards fixing that, but is only a slightly smaller baseball bat. Without redesigning the grip completely, it's hard to fix. Personally, I think if Beretta did what CZ did with the Phantom and also moved the safety back to the frame it would be a real good gun. That way you can slim down the fame a bunch by getting rid of the grips and the associated hardware to mount them.
 
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tarosean,


First, the post was simply an expression of appreciation for the commentary and analysis of the OP. I took the time to read his work, despite the lack of paragraphs, and I personally liked what he had to say.

Second, the post was intended to share the true experience of a mid-size local PD (400+ sworn officers) that transitioned from the Beretta to the M&P 9 with great satisfaction. With the M&P, qualification scores have improved substantially, the gun has performed admirably in a fairly significant number of OIS incidents, and it is lighter and easier for our officers to carry on their duty belts or concealed.

The decision to move to the M&P was not one made by "government" based on "$$$$" as you suggest.

You say the post does not prove anything. Well, it was not intended to "prove" anything. I was simply offering an example relevant to the conversation that I thought might be interesting to some.

Sorry to have wasted your time.

BOARHUNTER
 
Click-click, the deficiencies you noted with the pistol reflect my opinion of issues with the design that can't be corrected with the existing design. Also remember that your experiences and the experiences of others will not always be the same- too many variables in play. The fact that you are both an armed professional as well as a firearms enthusiast (which is great) isn't reflective of MOST of our service members. Many of our men and women have never fired a weapon of any type prior to service, and have nothing to do with them outside of their duty functions. Training regimens vary greatly from unit to unit, and even within duty positions in those units. With these factors in mind, it makes sense to try to adopt those items of equipment that can be most easily utilized from the process of training through to operational use by everyone. Fighting in enclosed spaces/"door kicking" is no longer a task solely reserved for our SPECOPS people. In fact, its becoming the norm to see lights mounted 24/7 on the handguns and rifles of our US based LE professionals assigned patrol duties and the like. While handguns aren't typically used as primary weapons in these missions, sometimes it becomes the primary due to malfunctions or necessity, such as when searching closets, ascending ladders, etc.
 
Boarhunter, did you happen to get any feedback from the PD who switched to the M&P concerning the use of the modular grips among the female or smaller male officers? I'm curious how that feature is being received. Thanks for taking the time to read that post. I actually composed it in response to queries from another member (who ultimately refused to read it), and inadvertently violated policy due to length and format (which I apologize for again). Rookie mistake, no excuse.
 
This can all be fixed by going back to the 1911 like many of the Special Forces units have already done. The John Browning 45 ACP is a proven man stopper and time has not changed that fact. The 1911 is still a great platform for delivering that round.
 
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