So, I work at a gunstore and...
- Thread starter Lakedaemonian
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mdauben
Member
I have had the same thing happen to me as a customer, with both other customers or occasionaly even store employees "sweeping" me.
I do agree with some others that gun shows seem to be the worst. I had proper gun safety drummed into me both at home at at Boy Scout camps when I was still in grade school. The first gun show I ever went to a few years ago, I had to keep stopping myself from diving for cover every time some moron would pick up an old rifle or shotgun and sweep the crowd with it before even checking the chamber (assuming he did at all).
Idiots.
I do agree with some others that gun shows seem to be the worst. I had proper gun safety drummed into me both at home at at Boy Scout camps when I was still in grade school. The first gun show I ever went to a few years ago, I had to keep stopping myself from diving for cover every time some moron would pick up an old rifle or shotgun and sweep the crowd with it before even checking the chamber (assuming he did at all).
Idiots.
There's a TV show about a gunsmith shop that the daughter of the owner swept a shop clerk with a Walker. 
Could just be the way it was cut , but she also swept the cameraman. You'd think the manager of a shop that builds class III's would know better.
Could just be the way it was cut , but she also swept the cameraman. You'd think the manager of a shop that builds class III's would know better.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
I bet that was tough. I have seen numerous videos showing US forces sweeping one another in various circumstances.
If you can't adjust to the job, then maybe you need employment elsewhere. Many of those "morons" were just like you or your fellow soldiers before training. It doesn't make them morons, just ignorant of current safety standards. There are a few morons, no doubt, and you probably don't want them in your store at all if you are truly concerned about safety.
Of course the rest of us who know the standard US safety rules know that they were codified by Col. Cooper in a book entitled The Modern Technique of the Pistol. We all know that Jeff Cooper is a huge icon in much of the gun world and that some of his teachings, especially the gun safety rules are dogma. So it would be reasonable to expect that Cooper, whilst living, would be the living embodiment of his safety rules. Turns out, such an expectation would be very naive and that Cooper really didn't practice what he preached. Here is their recapitulation. Note that in Rule 1, Cooper says there are no exceptions.
Here is Jeff Cooper violating his own safety rules ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKgAkwB8WRo
How many violations do you see?
Rule I? Is Cooper handling the gun as if it was loaded? Does it appear that he is engaged in partial compliance? Would it bother you to see a person handling a loaded gun in that manner? Remember that accordng to Cooper in regard to Rule I, There are no exceptions. So what part of "no" doesn't he understand?
Rule II? With the opening scene of Cooper, he draws his 1911 and covers his leg in the process. Later when he reholsters, he covers his leg again.
Rule III? Does Cooper keep his finger off the trigger until his sights are on target? Nope.
Rule IV? His target seems to be the ceiling, walls, and back of the classroom.
Check out Jeff pointing his pistol over the berm and covering his leg as he reholsters. There is a very clear closeup of him covering his own leg as he reholsters at 2:44...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci3uPXj6Dpo&feature=related
From the examples in these two videos, you can see that when Cooper reholsters his gun each time, to find the mouth of the holster, he cants the muzzle of his gun toward himself. He does it repeatedly and consistently.
It is very difficult to handle a firearm at a gun show without sweeping people. That is the nature of the layout and compactness of gun shows. If the show is busy, you just about can't raise the muzzle of any gun above floor level and even then with the gun pointed at the floor, there is a violation of the gun safety rules because with the floor as your target and backstop, "beyond" is any direction of the ricochet and that direction will undoubtedly include people.
I have yet to see a single vendor provide bullet traps for which for which gun shoppers can aim guns when held in normal firing positions, such as properly shouldered rifles.
It has been my impression based on news articles that in gun shops a large percentage of the NDs are by the employees of the shop. The same goes for gun shows. It is the vendors that frequently screw up and get people hurt.
Hanzo581
Member
You probably should not work with the general public if you have such high expectations of their competency.
This thread reminds me of this scene from the Simpsons.
I'm a bit of a freak/paranoid when it comes to gun safety. For my psychological well being, I have to reassure myself visually and physically at least three times that my rifle is unloaded and the bolt is out before I look down the muzzle after cleaning. And even then, I'm still extremely nervous.
Because of my paranoia, I can't stand it when someone hands me a gun that isn't open. This often happens at gun shops. I'm guessing that's because the employee assumes that I'm not familiar with the action. Knowing how to close a semi-auto rarely comes naturally.
I'm a bit of a freak/paranoid when it comes to gun safety. For my psychological well being, I have to reassure myself visually and physically at least three times that my rifle is unloaded and the bolt is out before I look down the muzzle after cleaning. And even then, I'm still extremely nervous.
Because of my paranoia, I can't stand it when someone hands me a gun that isn't open. This often happens at gun shops. I'm guessing that's because the employee assumes that I'm not familiar with the action. Knowing how to close a semi-auto rarely comes naturally.
Lakedaemonian
Member
A sign would be great if everybody actually read them. We have a sign on the front door that askes people not to bring loaded firearms in. Nevertheless, constantly people pull out a hot weapon and say "Hey I need a holster for this."
(I Know that they are loaded, because every time I ask them to check and make sure their weapon is unloaded before I proceed to help them find a holster. Then "ploop" out pops a round from the chamber.)
This is their constitutional right to carry the weapon loaded, however, there is a well defined line of courtesy and respect to follow. I dont carry a loaded gun at work. It sends the wrong message, but when people are pulling out their loaded sidearm in my store it makes me think twice about carrying.
leadcounsel
member
This is a great opportunity to teach folks right there at your counter. Rather than getting mad after the fact, you could proactively instruct them about the courtesies of muzzle sweeps and also teach about the 4 rules of gun safety. Done correctly, folks can appreciate it and it opens a great dialogue!
scrat
Member
You work at a gunstore. You are in charge of the guns not the customers. When you give a gun to a customer you check again to make sure its empty. Then you DIRECTLY tell the customer where to point the muzzle of the gun and tell them this is the only place you want to see the muzzle facing. Remind the customer this not a toy. Some will get offended and some will appreciate it. However bottom line you are in charge its your responsibility. You have to manage the situation.
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
I totally agree with Bubba 613 on this one~!
Mac's Precision
Member
This is actually an easier problem to fix than you think. Simply tack a target up behind the counter...and when you hand them the pistol to look at...tell them "Please, point the muzzle at the target provided over there....and not at me...thank you" You may even choose to write on the target "Point guns HERE ONLY" It works wonders in sending the message that they need to control their actions and that you don't appreciate looking at the business end of a gun.
In my shop, I only allow guns to be pointed at a stack of 5 gallon pails full of sand. I am not going to have people randomly pointing weapons around. All it takes is one wild cartridge that ends up in someone's gun...somehow...and I have a hole in the wall....and uncontrolled fire on my property. No....that is not how I do it. All guns...loaded or not....get pointed in the designated safe zone...no questions.
Cheers
Mac.
In my shop, I only allow guns to be pointed at a stack of 5 gallon pails full of sand. I am not going to have people randomly pointing weapons around. All it takes is one wild cartridge that ends up in someone's gun...somehow...and I have a hole in the wall....and uncontrolled fire on my property. No....that is not how I do it. All guns...loaded or not....get pointed in the designated safe zone...no questions.
Cheers
Mac.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Yep, few folks read signs. Even worse, employees often don't follow what the signs say either.
That would be the well defined line of courtesy and respect that none of your customers seem to know about? Or do you think that they just don't like you?
I think you must have forgotten to add the emoticons to your post. You had to be joking, right? After all, who would ever think that a gun store employee carrying a gun would send a wrong message.
Just a polite heads-up, but you do realize that gun stores do get robbed from time to time, don't you?
22-rimfire
Member
I would place some signs up on the counter in clear english. Handle every gun as if it is loaded. Do not point any gun at employees or customers. I pay most attention to the employee handing me the firearm.
kingpin008
Member
What wrong message could that possibly send? I'm sorry, but everyone I know who works at a gun shop carries. Most of them openly. Heck, even the guy who owns the pawn shop I go to for transfers open carries in his shop.
IMHO, a gun shop employee who is uncomfortable carrying a gun is somewhat suspicious. I'm not saying that everyone has to carry, but if you worked in a shop where it was condoned and likely even expected yet chose not to...I'd probably wait to deal with another clerk.
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NMGonzo
Member
yup
Lakedaemonian
Member
Suspicious? First of all, the owner doesnt allow open carry so its out of my hands. I carry everywhere other than school and work. (going to collage) Personally I like Mac's suggestion. This is something I can take to my boss and hopefully it will help.My other suggestion might be as impractical/undesirable as the legislated gun safety. For those entering with guns into gun stores.
I've noticed that many people are not too good about reading signs. I'm no exception. They also occasionally bring loaded guns into gun shops. And I'm no exception to that either. (Just once for me, but that once could have proved to be too much.)
So here's my (harebrained?) suggestion: Customers who enter gunstores have to go through a greeter at the store. The greeter's first responsibility would be to ask the customer if he/she/they have any firearms. (Possible exception: On-duty police entering the store, and those with CCW's for guns they're not going to sell or trade.) Then the greeter would be knowledgeable about firearms to the point where he would be able to check the chamber and magazines of any firearm which enters the store. He would then make sure the guns/gun are unloaded before the customer is permitted to enter. Once the gun/guns are determined to be unloaded, the customer would then be required to read a sign before he went inside. This would be a brief review of firearms safety, plus any rules the dealer wants to impose (like no dry-firing .22 rimfires, etc.)
A pain for the customer, sure, but it would be one way that the dealer, and even the customers, might have some assurance of safety within the store.
I've noticed that many people are not too good about reading signs. I'm no exception. They also occasionally bring loaded guns into gun shops. And I'm no exception to that either. (Just once for me, but that once could have proved to be too much.)
So here's my (harebrained?) suggestion: Customers who enter gunstores have to go through a greeter at the store. The greeter's first responsibility would be to ask the customer if he/she/they have any firearms. (Possible exception: On-duty police entering the store, and those with CCW's for guns they're not going to sell or trade.) Then the greeter would be knowledgeable about firearms to the point where he would be able to check the chamber and magazines of any firearm which enters the store. He would then make sure the guns/gun are unloaded before the customer is permitted to enter. Once the gun/guns are determined to be unloaded, the customer would then be required to read a sign before he went inside. This would be a brief review of firearms safety, plus any rules the dealer wants to impose (like no dry-firing .22 rimfires, etc.)
A pain for the customer, sure, but it would be one way that the dealer, and even the customers, might have some assurance of safety within the store.
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kingpin008
Member
Lake - I'm confused. Earlier you said that carrying at work would "send the wrong message". But if your only option is to carry concealed (as per boss' rules) how would that send any message? Concealed is concealed, right?
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
Main Rule
"ALL GUNS ARE LOADED, ALL OF THE TIME"
'Nuff Said
"ALL GUNS ARE LOADED, ALL OF THE TIME"
'Nuff Said
Creature
Member
I would never work at a gun store that doesn't allow open or concealed carry for the employees.
So, how do you clean your guns? How do you inspect the rifling on a barrel before you buy?
Let's stop pretending that guns are magical things that are always loaded, shall we? Then we can have an open dialog about safety and not treat grown ups like children. This whole farce lends credibility to antis that think that guns are uncontrollable, living, evil objects with a will, instead of inanimate objects.
Guns don't load themselves, and the second we acknowledge that, the sooner we can act rationally about it.
Oh, and it's spelled "College".
Sport45
Member
As far as I know there is no constitutional right to carry a loaded firearm on private propert agains the wishes of the owner. If the store has a properly posted "no loaded weapons" sign then customers are bound by law to obey it. A freindly reminder might be in order when they ask about holsters (before they reach for the gun, if possible).
Deltaboy1984
Member
Gently correct the man in a regular tone of voice and let it go at that.
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