So now I am not allowed to even hold a HANDGUN!!

[Double Naught Spy]

At our store, we never allowed folks under 21 to handle handguns unless it was via their parent and then we handed the gun to the parent and if the parent chose to allow a child to handle it, assuming it was handled safely, we had no problem. Basically, there was no reason to put an item into the hands of a person who legally could not own it and we ran the risk of getting into trouble if the kid decided to try to make a break for the front door with a gun in pistol in hand.

Along the same lines, we did not show rifles or shotguns to kids under 18 for the same reasons. If they brought in their folks, then it wasn't an issue.

There is nothing rude about the policy. At the time, I had thought it was law and maybe it was or wasn't. I don't know now. Either way, it wasn't rude. It was just what we felt was the appropriate way of doing business in a responsible manner.

 

[Jonesy9]

you can't fault him for not risking his business by breaking the law to serve you. sure, he could be more tactful but you have the choice whether or not to patronize his store when you are of legal age.

 

[anapex]

Scenario A: "Bobby, here is the handgun I bought you for Christmas."
Scenario B: "Here's $500, Mom; remember, it's the Model 21C I'm wanting. Bob's Sporting Goods has them."

Man I think I use both of those lines on my wife.

 

[Black92LX]

you can't fault him for not risking his business by breaking the law to serve you

In no way did i say he was wrong. i was simply stating that this had never happened to me in the past at the same store. even when they knew i wasn't 21.

 

[Kevlarman]

So what's the difference between a straw purchase and buying it as a gift?

Me: "Mom, I wouldn't be opposed if you bought me an SKS for my birthday"
Mom: "Sure honey!"
Me: "Coincidentally, here's the $200 I owed you for my car insurance."

*coughcough*

 

[Kharn]

Tamara:
You are correct that he had no idea knowing if I was a sting or not, but he went about expressing himself the wrong way, including a few four-letter words and name calling, rather than a simple 'No, come back after your birthday.'

Kharn

 

[Gus Dddysgrl]

hmmm I have no idea. I've never tried to hold one without my dad there. However if dad was there, but on the other side of the store they would still let me handle them. Now that I'm 21 I can go one myself and all that.

I don't see what's wrong with letting younger people look at them and handle them. That is if they didn't look too young and as long as someone was watching closely, making sure they don't break the gun rules. If they are future buyers why not treat them well now?

I don't know why it would be illegal, but if it is against the law then it's against the law.

Gus

 

[sm]

Insurance

Besides the various FFL, local, state, and other reg's mentioned, there is the insurance company.

Times have changed. Yep, as a brat I was allowed to handle guns at Sears, pswn shops and hardware stores. Granted I'd been in with and adult and they new me, and showed safety, but heck we were taught gun/archery in school. During hunting seasons, oh yeah, guns in vehicles becase we haunted before and after school.

Sometimes it is NOT Age. Go to a Fine Jewlery Store, the sign says" due to insurance regulations, only one item may be removed from showcase at a time".

Profiling is a reality. A fellow in a suit that has no money but owes multple credit cards may get to look at a $ 10k ring, or a fine shotgun. Take a fellow ( as I actually did) a OK oil man with $50K cash in his pocket and the sales people wouldn't give him the time of day. He still had mud on his boots, wearing Tuff Nutts, and flew in on his private LearJet. Profiled tho'.

I halted that because I had made the appointment with the owner before hand. $48K cash for a Pink diamond ring. His wife went through the same deal buying him two fine double rifles, for cash. Just an anniversary gift(s).

The employees were shocked to say the least, well, umm Insurance companies said and made the rules.

Its sucks to be young at times, as aging progresses its easier sometimes to understand. It really sucks to wake up one day and you hear yourself say the very things you resented as a youth.

One my buddies( owned a gun store)whom passed away stopped himself with a kid with green hair and earrings about the 21 y/o age dealie,one day he knew this kids parents, we just went to the backroom and let him see the gun he wanted -put-on L/A had another 4 months to go, but he was making deposits with his own money toward an "in store acct". We just didn't need anyone we didn't know making a fuss, all legal. The kid didn't like the law , was respectful and we respected him. At 21 his parents surprised him with the balance needed, and ammo. He survived being shunned.

 

[355sigfan]

Your wasting his time. You can't buy it so I don't blame him one bit.
Pat

 

[Moparmike]

Your wasting his time.

Using one's time on a potential customer isnt wasting time, its a good business practice. Every first year business student and business man knows this, or will learn it the hard way by bad word-of-mouth recomendations.

At the very least, a nice explanation of the law in a cordial manner with an apology is in order.

 

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All-

Well, kid or NO kid you were checking out one fine
handgun my friend! I have an older (1990) West
German (with proof marks) SIG P228 and high caps
that I wouldn't take a "plug nickle" for. These guns
are amazingly accurate to be combat firearms. And
IMHO, its just the right size for a nice CCW. I stoke
mine with that infamous "Secret Service 9m/m Load"
that no one is willing to talk about. I obtained just
a handful of these from my local PD rangemaster
after the SS finished their qualification. I highly
recommend the P228; and really wish that you
could have carried it home with you that day!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[greyhound]

Me: "Coincidentally, here's the $200 I owed you for my car insurance

I've seen a couple types of these responses here in my 6 months at THR.

I have no problem with an 18 year old owning a handgun if their parents approve.

But, it does seem to be a straw purchase, in violation of federal law via question 1 on the 4473, yet ownership through a "gift" (in this case a sham) from a direct relative is OK by many state laws.

Not sure where i am going with this, except maybe to say a true gift, where there is no money changing hands for some bogus "car insurance"seems OK, but sneaking around the system seems like dirty pool.

I guess I wish the laws would get bumped from 21 to 18 on handguns. I can't see a difference between a handgun, rifle or shotgun - anyone who wants to conceal any of 'em is going to do it, by cutting them down, sawing them off, or whatever. And in fact, most rifles and shotguns are more dangerous than handguns, except for concealability.

 

[Black92LX]

Your wasting his time. You can't buy it so I don't blame him one bit. Pat

IN NO WAY AM I BLAMING HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was just stating that this had never happened before and i found it to be very strange considering. i have been to this shop numerous times and everytime they knew i wasn't 21.

 

[Matt G]

Yes, the federal, state, and local laws are stupid.

The BATF has been so adament about buffaloing FFL's and gunshops into believing that if anyone makes the tiniest move that they don't approve of, they'll stomp 'em into a new mudhole, that the gunshops are genuinely a wee bit scared. Remember the power these idjits (the alphabet boys) have. They can yank a license, slow up paperwork, do audits, etc, at their pleasure. They have been known to make highly abusive raids in which they destroy property, close shops, and ruin lives, over incorrectly filled-out forms. Over lack of a $200 tax stamp.

Add to that the issues of insurance and the perceived waste of time (with regard to the concept of an immediate sale), against the increased wear to the finish and perception by the ill-informed that they're playing fast and loose with the rules/laws, and I sure can see why they'd be reluctant to let a sub-21-year-old hold one of their guns.

Yes, the laws are stupid.

 

[Fatcat]

My post was kind of silly, but I still don't like the law.

 

[PrudentGT]

Condolances on the rude treatment at the store, sadly in the industry, either because of the 'regulatory climate' or just bad attitudes, it seems to be the rule rather than the exception.

Okay, Ala Dan, you've got my curiosity up, what's the 'Super Secret Secret Service load?' You can PM me if posting it would constitute clear and present danger or something.

 

[355sigfan]

And how does "Are you the actual buyer of this firearm" actually determine between a lawful and unlawful transaction? I give my parents some money as a gift, the money is now theirs. They use their money to buy a gun and, as a gift, give it to me. Seems pretty hard to prove a straw buy. I obey the letter of the law, but not necessarily the spirit.)
END

This is called a straw purchase and it will get you and your parents in some big trouble. Would not be hard to prove now as you posted it on the net. They can give you weapons in most states. But giving them money to buy you a weapon is a straw purchase. I may not like the law but its best to try and change them not break them.
Pat

 

[igor]

I wonder if there are precedents available of these intra-familial straw purchases that actually have led to a conviction?

Now there you'll need LE with a true will and motivation to really interfere with a family's privacy... it was the true 70's revisionist communists' battle cry that "your children are not yours" and "the private IS political".

The land of the free, indeed.

 

[Ed]

In 1995 when I was 1 month shy of being 21 I went into a gun store looking for my first 1911. Told them I was looking and didn't have the age or money yet. They had a Springfield that was used about $350 and in great shape. I wanted it.SO I put it on lay-a way. I made a down payment and drove back the 40 miles to the store every week to make a payment and look at it. On the day I turned 21 it was a sunday so Monday morning I drove over and payed it off and picked it up. I think that that was all legal. Due to the way that this store treated me. I probably spent about $5000 in there over the next 3 years in college.

 

[Ed N.]

Scenario C: "Happy Birthday, Mom! Here's a gift certificate for $500 at Joe Schmoe's Gun Shop."

<1 week later> "Merry Christmas, son! Here's that handgun you wanted!"



Legal, but looks fishy. Would likely only become a problem if the young man got into some sort of trouble while armed. Probably be a tough sell in court.

 

[dustind]

Bear in mind as well that he may really know what is "permitted" better than you do, regardless of what the law says. It's not unusual for police to lean on gun shops and ranges, including arresting people for perfectly legal behavior and trusting the court system to "sort it out" (which appears to be a euphemism for "bankrupt the uppity civil rights nut.")

 

[CZ52GUY]

How very sad...and shortsighted!

Your wasting his time. You can't buy it so I don't blame him one bit.

We need the next generation of shooters...we need them badly!!

We should be RECRUITING new members to our sport.

It is NEVER a waste of time to encourage a young person who is self-motivated to pursue lawful gun ownership!

With the media, and the pol's, academia, and the entertainment industry all aligning themselves in lock step to take away our rights???????

This sentiment is maddening!! :banghead:

Obey the law? Absolutely!

Insurance implications? Understood!

Waste of Time????????

NEVER!!

CZ52'

 

[CZ52GUY]

okay, I counted to ten...

...I had a long absence from active participation in our sport.

I was seduced by "likeable/attractive" people who were anti'.

I always maintained my core belief in the 2nd, but like many, I figured being "pragmatic", and "compromising" was a sign of maturity.

9/11/2001 was a huge wakeup call for me, and my wife. We realized that on MANY FRONTS we had been slowly boiled like the mythical frog.

In 2002 I began a journey back into the sport, and I LOVE IT!!

My collection has grown dramatically. I've developed a bond with my brother-in-law who is ex-military/leo who's been kind enough to show me the ropes in so many ways.

I'm WELL PAST my 21st b-day, but because I am relatively new to today's world as a gun owner, I relate very strongly to young people who are trying to find their way into lawful (and safe) gun ownership, and the hobby & sport that I find so very rewarding (beyond even the practical benefits).

EVERY TIME, someone behind the counter puts on their best "crusty old fart" impression, whether its to a young person, a member of the fairer sex, or an ethnic demographic they may not be comfortable with, they risk the future of the 2nd.

We live in a time where so-called "soccer moms" are the STRONGEST ADVOCATES for pilots having the right to carry on commercial flights.

We live in a time where the shock factor of 9/11 has women headed to ranges IN DROVES.

We live in a time when (frauds like Michael Moore notwithstanding) there is a new examination in the public arena of the value proposition of lawful gun ownership by private citizens. Fox News, talk radio, conservative publications...they are all finding an audience where advocates for the 2nd have a fighting chance to get their message out.

The BIGGEST REASON my collection has grown to the size it is today, and the BIGGEST REASON I've become so passionate about our sport is that at a gun show in January 2003, instead of scowling at me (as so many dealers did), somebody yelled "HEY ISN'T THAT COOL!! Here, pick it up!! You gotta' see how this baby points!!"

This dealer hadn't forgotten the joy that our sport offers.

He hadn't forgotten the reward of sharing it with others.

He practically threw the rifle at me. I didn't buy from him that day, but I sought him out (3 hours round trip), because he didn't think time with me was a waste....

I've given him about $2500 business this year alone, and I expect to keep making that long drive because unlike dealers that are much closer, he thinks that I'm worth his time...

...and I think he has earned my business, and he'll continue to.

Best wishes, have a safe Halloween,

CZ52'