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Socom M1A?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Archangel14, Jul 29, 2012.

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  1. Archangel14

    Archangel14 Member

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    My next purchase was going to be an AK based rifle. To be used as a SHTF weapon. The reliability and price (rifle and ammo) are attractive.

    But I got to thinking, why not a Springfield SOCOM 16 inch (.308 caliber). It's a very reliable rifle by all accounts, balls accurate, and the .308 round is an ass-kicker. I remember a buddy telling me that if you get into a gun fight, be sure to bring enough gun. So, I want your learned opinion. But here's the groundwork, so we don't get off base:

    1. Price of the firearm and ammo IS NOT an issue (I'm well heeled, so to speak),
    2. This will be a SHTF rifle,
    3. I live in an arid, windy, desert, suburban environment. But I'm surrounded by some large open, desert areas.

    What should I get, the Springfield SOCOM or a quality AK47? Thanks!
     
  2. gunnutery

    gunnutery Member

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    You may need to change the SHTF concept (or at least on paper) as such threads don't get very far with that labeling.

    If you're talking SD/HD, both rifles have roughly the same effective range. The Socom16 I believe has potential for more range but the front sight post is too large and covers the target at longer distances. But as far as effective range is concerned, either will get the job done at ranges we should defending ourselves (100 yds and under most likely). If you're looking at HD, do you have neighbors or lots of people living with you that over penetration is an issue?

    I've always liked the Socom 16 and had hopes to put one on patrol with me, but my dept. wants to stick with .223.
     
  3. Archangel14

    Archangel14 Member

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    Okay, good advice. But here's my thinking: if I need a HD weapon, there's nothing better than a 12 gauge. I guess I'd be using the rifle mostly within 25to 75 yards, if I ever had to use it (God forbid). That presents an over-penetration problem. But I have to think that if I'm forced to pull out a .308 rifle in an urban/suburban setting, it's because S*#T has indeed hit the fan and I'm slugging it out with government people and/or an unruly mob of citizens. At that point, I would think that the issue of over-penetration is, in fact, a non-issue.

    I can see myself well equipped with a shotgun and a relaible sidearm for most problems. But if things get hairy with the govt'/mob, wouldn't it be better to have a serious, high power, proven instrument on hand? Short range or not?
     
  4. jonnyc

    jonnyc Member

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    It's an M1 (one) A.
     
  5. JDMorris

    JDMorris Member

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    This thread will be locked pretty soon...

    If you want a good .308 rifle that's very capable of hitting your targets from 25-100 meters, just say that, if you would like 20 round mags, just say that..

    There is absolutely NO NEED to talk about "slugging it out with government people" which you would not survive, because if that were ever to happen the National Guard would rip you to pieces.

    If you want a shorter barrel length, specify that.

    This is not a SHTF forum, if you want to go and fantasize about how you're going to kill people in the future, go to WhenSHTF.com

    If things get "hairy" with the Government, you will not make it. Sorry, unless you have some well armed well trained group of people, you will not survive a firefight with the Feds.

    The Government is going to be on our side if things ever get rough, it's not like one day there's going to be some Nazi / Communist / Anti-Democratic Government.

    If you want a good rifle with short barrel length, an AR15 is a good option because it's chambered in the NATO round, it holds 30 rounds, mags are pretty cheap, and they're pretty easy to maintain, unlike an M1A, which is much more complicated.
     
  6. henschman

    henschman Member

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    Why is there so much opposition, on a gun forum, to people discussing the merits of various rifles for the main purpose behind the Second Amendment?

    There is definitely a major difference between what you would want to defend yourself from small-time criminals (i.e. home invaders) versus what you would want to defend yourself against the really bad criminals (i.e. the types who have committed all the worst crimes in history and rack up 7 or 8 digit body counts).

    I think there is a lot to be said for a good battle rifle in 7.62 NATO for this role. Indeed, barrier penetration would be a positive, not a negative, in a 2nd Amendment situation. "Turning cover into concealment," so to speak. But the SOCOM wouldn't be my first choice. They are generally less reliable than a full sized M-14, and use proprietary parts that you can only get from Springfield. They also suffer a loss of velocity from their short barrel, and as was mentioned, the sight radius is not great. They do not have a chrome-lined or nitrided barrel, as most modern serious-use rifles do. They are also not the easiest platform to mount optics on (that goes for all versions of the M-14). Basically you get a rifle that is not effective at any greater range than an intermediate-powered rifle like an AR, but without any of the advantages of an intermediate power rifle (lighter weight, less recoil, lighter/smaller ammo, higher capacity). It's only advantage is that it has better barrier penetration.

    I am a big fan of the M1A. My own main go-to rifle is a standard M1A with a 1-4x scope. I am highly familiar with it and am not planning on getting rid of it. But if I had it all to do again, I would probably go with an Armalite AR-10A4 for that role these days. I would get a sturdy, high-quality optic such as an ACOG or a good 1-(n) power variable scope, some backup iron sights, plenty of mags, and most of all, some good training.

    An Appleseed is a good place to start, and then maybe a carbine course. Maybe go to some "run and guns" if you have anything like that where you are. The training part is the most important. When you actually have to run yourself and your gear hard, like you would in real life, it gives you a very different perspective on these things. It will likely change your ideas quite a bit when it comes to equipment, and what you actually will need if that day ever comes. Also you must realize that carrying a rifle is only one way to resist tyranny, and certainly not the most effective for every situation. It would pay to study up on some real resistance movements and insurgencies in recent history... Ireland in the 1920s, the Winter War in Finland, all the various resistance movements in WWII (French, Yugoslav, Norwegian, Polish, etc.), Indochina/Vietnam, and the people who are resisting our military's current police actions, to name a few. There are lots of lessons to be learned from all, and suffice to say that the way things work out in real life are very different from how most "armchair commandos" picture it unfolding. As they say, the fight will not be what you want it to be... the fight will be the fight. You have to adapt. The Swiss Army manual "Total Resistance" is a good read. The Swiss certainly don't shy away from discussing the main political function of an armed citizenry. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2012
  7. JDMorris

    JDMorris Member

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    Because we don't do SHTF here because it always escalates to something stupid.

    If S does in fact HTF.

    All these idots talking about fighting the feds are going to get killed.

    Some people are going to "bug out" and may or may not arrive to their destination safely.

    And some people are going to just stay home and be reasonable not trying to kill everyone that drives by.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2012
  8. SharpsDressedMan

    SharpsDressedMan member

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    "Oh, Socom Mia!" I couldn't resist. :D
     
  9. WardenWolf

    WardenWolf member

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  10. henschman

    henschman Member

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    I don't know who "we" is, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

    I realize that there are some who think the rationale behind the Second Amendment is outdated. While I would certainly take issue with that, this is not the place for such discussions, nor is it what the OP asked about. Please try to keep the commentary on point. If all you have to contribute is "your whole purpose for buying a gun is idiotic," you probably shouldn't post in the thread in the first place.
     
  11. snakeman

    snakeman Member

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    Personally, I would get the ak and and stock up on accessories and ammo. I would look into the m10 ak from m&m. Spare parts, mags, and ammo stored away would be plentiful and practice would be cheap. The m10 can be upgraded with optics via the side rail and is supposedly accurate enough for your intended purposes. A good set of tech sights and a red dot would be a welcome addition. As would a folding stock and a tennis racket bag for discreet transport. I shot my first deer with an ak when I was seven years old, with the stock iron sights at 117 yards, heart shot. They'll do good enough for survival.
     
  12. JDMorris

    JDMorris Member

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    Every SHTF thread on this forum gets out of hand, and it's clear that THR is not a SHTF discussion board.

    That is not all I had to contribute, so let's not take my words and make what you want of them.
     
  13. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Personally if I wanted an M1A and .308 performance, I would buy a 20" M1A.

    An overweight 16" .308 SOCOM just makes my ringing ears ring louder just thinking about it!

    rc
     
  14. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    "Why is there so much opposition, on a gun forum, to people discussing the merits of various rifles for the main purpose behind the Second Amendment?"

    rational, realistic scenarios are encouraged. hollywood fantasy not so much. the term "shtf" is too often immediately followed by hollywood fantasy, and is thus not done here.

    not by this account. i don't think it's any of the above.
     
  15. Welding Rod

    Welding Rod Member

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    I would instead go for a full-size M14 clone with a GI or medium contour barrel, in a GI fiberglass stock.

    I have both right now and if I could I would trade the SOCOM for another fullsize like that.
     
  16. NoirFan

    NoirFan Member

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    I would steer you toward the M1A Scout model. It balances well, about the same as the socom, and the front sight is a more precise.

    Because none of them have much merit. We are currently fighting two wars of occupation in countries where military rifles are as common as grains of sand, but what is actually killing US troops? Hint: it's not bullets by a long shot. If Americans ever decide to rise up against a tyrannical (whatever that means) government, all our military-style rifles will be about as useless as those sabers and bowie knives abandoned on the roadside during the Civil War. If you really want to talk insurgency, look at how the real pros do it, the people who have fought American soldiers for near on a decade now. Including a rifle in this discussion is almost pure fantasy.

    I completely agree with you on this point, but one should pick examples very carefully.
     
  17. SharpsDressedMan

    SharpsDressedMan member

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    Yet the most effective tool against insurgents is our snipers. Hmmm, wonder what they use?
     
  18. Robert

    Robert Moderator Staff Member

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    "We" is THR and JD Morris is 100% correct. THR is not a SHTF forum. If you want to talk about the pros and cons of various firearms in a self defense situation go right ahead. Want to fantasize about hordes of blue helmets coming over the ridge while clutching a 91/30 then there are other forums that are better suited for that.

    Personally, I'd rather have a FAL than a SOCOM. But that is just me. I like the M1A but I find the ergos on the FAL to be much better for me.
     
  19. Archangel14

    Archangel14 Member

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    HEY JD MORRIS: I'm the original poster. Thanks for your limited, unasked for insight. No conspiracies here. Just thought that if things went crazy in society, I might want to be armed as well as possible. Thus my inquiry from the very knowledgeable contributors to this site. You have a problem with people bringing up "break down of society" possibilities?, then keep it to yourself...that's not what I asked about. Oh, and don't think crazy stuff can't happen in civilized, democratic societies? Look back to Nazi Germany or the way our very government treated African-Americans just a few decades ago, or a hundred other recent examples.

    Let me break it down so as not to excite your frail emotions: what is better in a BAD situation where we must rely on ourselves, an AK variant or an M1A? That was the question. Don't have a positive contribution, then go cry to yourself.
     
  20. Fishbed77

    Fishbed77 Member

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    If you are shooting someone at 75 yards, it will most likely be considered to be murder, not self-defense.

    Just saying.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2012
  21. henschman

    henschman Member

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    But American soldiers are such a small part of the picture. The insurgents kill PLENTY of the Afghan police with rifles... to the point that the Afghan government is virtually non-existent in many parts of the country. Our military may win every engagement it is involved in, but if the government we are trying to prop up cannot establish a foothold in much of the country and has no one to enforce its laws in those areas, it is all for naught.

    Likewise if something like the OP was talking about were to happen in the U.S., do you think the enemy would have troops stationed in every single little podunk town in the country, with APC's and attack helicopters on call? It would be absolutely impossible. To enforce it's will on the people, any government needs local authorities, who are, of necessity, much more "vulnerable." The bottom line is, all a resistance movement has to do in order to win is to make sure that those local authorities cannot effectively do their jobs.

    Certainly there are many ways to accomplish this other than a rifle, many of which may be more effective the majority of the time... but that is not to say that the rifle does not have it's place. It is just one tool in the toolbox. It just so happens to be the type of tool this section of the forum is dedicated to, so there is certainly a "rational, realistic" purpose for discussing it here. Unless the main rationale behind the 2nd Amendment is no longer considered "realistic" by the moderators of this board.

    But on the topic of rifles, I would say that a good long-range precision rifle (and the skills to put it to good use) would be another very valuable tool, that might actually be more useful for protecting liberty than a battle rifle would in many ways. I am a fan of having a variety of weapons for a variety of situations. I believe there is also a place for the anti-materiel rifle, the DMR rifle, the battle rifle, the carbine, the ultra-compact carbine, and even the handgun... Michael Collins' boys sure put them to effective use against the detectives of the Royal Irish Constabulary and Dublin Metropolitan Police.
     
  22. Archangel14

    Archangel14 Member

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    ROBERT: thank you....I'll avoid any reference to possible "end of the world" scenarios in the future. That was not the point of my post, but as a moderator I see your point and will respect your opinion and rules, henceforth.
     
  23. Archangel14

    Archangel14 Member

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    TO ALL: let me say that when I made my initial posts, I was unaware that it is frowned upon to bring up "SHTF" scenarios. I offended some, and took it a step further by personally calling out and insulting JD MORRIS. I cannot say that was not my intent, it was....and it was VERY CHILDISH OF ME.

    This is a great forum most contributors have a positive thing to say. I apologize to JD Morris and to the rest of you. I'll do my best to observe the written and unwritten rules/guidelines of this forum in the future.

    One thing I will say (not in my defense...just something that is important to say). The second amendment allows us to lawfully defend ourselves from all types of criminals, whether they be of the doped-out street variety, or the criminal who acts under color of law. The Founders knew the danger of a government gone wild and they want us to protect ourselves from tyranny. Should that ever happen in the United States, as it has to many people already right here on US soil, we should be prepared. And by being prepared, I mean with the best equipment we can individually afford. Thus, an AK or an M1A? Thanks.
     
  24. DefiantDad

    DefiantDad Member

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    My humble, newbie suggestion is to ask (in your proposed scenario): Which do you think is more reliable when you have no access to quality cleaning gear, gunsmiths, and have to rough it out for months and years? AK or M1A?

    By the way, it is not necessarily true what you said about the 12 gauge shotgun being the perfect HD tool. If you miss on the first shot, how long will it take for you to reacquire the bad guy(s) who happened to duck around the corner just in time for you to miss? And how many times can you do this, while trying not get shot yourself from their night-vision carbines?
     
  25. Archangel14

    Archangel14 Member

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    DefiantDad: I never thought of that. I have zero experience with the M1A. I was just assuming that it is a tried and tested rifle that performs well. I guess my biggest concern is reliability. It appears that the AK, being a reliable platform, is my ticket. Unless, of course, the M1A is as reliable. What is you opinion?

    Thank you.
     
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