Soldier's blog re: stabbing through body armor

[TarpleyG]

I was Googling for something else and started reading this NCO's blog from earlier this year. Started to take the guy seriously in the first few paragraphs, then I run across this dandy comment. AFAIK, no Kevlar armor is rated for a knife attack sans a direct hit on a trauma plate. Please correct me if I am wrong. My BS meter is in full swing.

Of course when I tell these stories, I need to leave the military dark humor at home. I’m watching “Assault on Precinct 13” and these two guys start stabbing this “bad” cop and I just burst out laughing while everybody else in the theater is covering their eyes. The reason why it was funny is the cop was wearing Kevlar body armor, which protects his torso and chest from sharp objects. In real life, there’s no way the blade would have penetrated that body armor. Hey, it was funny.

http://desert-smink.blogspot.com/2005_01_01_desert-smink_archive.html

Greg

 

[1 old 0311]

He is correct. Body armor is FABRIC. A bullet hits lots of strands that will stop it. A knife will go between the fibers. A ice pick will go through it like hot butter.

Kevin

 

[Old Dog]

Well, simply because someone is in the military, wears the issue body armor and [allegedly] is a combat veteran, doesn't mean that individual is fully aware of the limitations of the various types of body armor. I know I've worked with, and deployed with, a number of chuckleheads who weren't aware of the knife vs. kevlar vest outcome ...

 

[chopinbloc]

well, the more layers, the better protection against knife attacks. slashing attacks would be most likely defeated by any soft body armor. stabbing attacks might be defeated, depending on the width and thickness of the weapon, the force of the blow and the layers of kevlar involved. of course, corrections officers wear stab vests which are proof against almost any edged or pointed weapon, but it sounds like he's talking about ballistic armor.

as a side point, are you sure it was a soldier, not a marine? sounds like he has exactly the fluffed up ego and sub-par mental faculties of a marine. maybe he's an EX-marine.

 

[IZinterrogator]

He is probably only familiar with the style of body armor he has been issued. No knife is going to go through my Level 4 plates, which are the same ones he has. Cut him some slack.

 

[HighVelocity]

He probably thinks kevlar will stop a knife because his CO told him so.

 

[TarpleyG]

All right chopinbloc, I take offense to that....

Greg (FORMER Marine)

 

[Double Naught Spy]

He is probably only familiar with the style of body armor he has been issued. No knife is going to go through my Level 4 plates, which are the same ones he has. Cut him some slack.

Yes, but he specifically stated that a knife would not go through kevlar. The soldier has to know that his vest is comprised of two major components to stop incoming rounds, kevlar and the level IV plates. If he has an interceptor vest, then he should know that the soft panels (kevlar) will not stop stabbing from knives because it says so right inside the vest in the back, along with care instructions, etc.

As a soldier, the guy really should know more about the capabilities of his equipment. No doubt he knows just how far his rifle will shoot or be effective. He knows its advantages and limitations. He should know the same thing about his armor and as noted and unlike on rifles, those advantages and limitations are listed on the vest itself.

 

[hso]

A kevlar vest is not intended to stop a stab from knives and will provide minimal protection unless there's a trauma plate.

 

[Jeff White]

No kevlar isn't proof against knives and icepicks. But it will provide some protection. It's hard to cut and takes a lot of force to go through. Don't believe me, take a look at this thread from the Body Army Forum over at www.lightfighter.net

http://lightfighter.net/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/440107306/m/1931090941

If I were unarmed or armed only with an edged weapon and someone attacked me with a knife or an icepick, I'd rather be wearing my body armor then not wearing it, even though it's note rated to stop a knife.

Jeff

 

[21H40]

Even NCO's don't always know about their equipment. Especially if he's not a "full timer" and might feed his family using unrelated skills when he's not deployed to the mid east.
I had seen some reports of British cops buying modern variants of chainmail because of the increase of knife attacks and kevlar not being effective enough. I tried to explain the idea of kevlar limitations to my peers, but many refuse to belive that the vest might not make them invulnerable. Most soldiers aren't educated enough in chemistry, physics, or literature to know about the "high tech" materials they've got or how to read about them -- sometimes even to read the labels on them. :banghead:
Anyway, some of these guys need the reassurance that comes from NOT knowing the limitations of their equipment. Ignorance helps them sleep at night.
Try discussing ballistics, armor or even the type of metal used in a good knife with most soldiers and they'll give you a blank stare. Suprisingly, it is rare to find soldiers willing to research why their stuff works (or why it doesn't).

 

[Joejojoba111]

Technically, the real reason knives can defeat a kevlar vest isn't about going betweenthe fibres, which does seemmpossible, but because of the different properties. Tensile strength is used to catch the bullets, hardness resists cutting. Kevlar is strong but not hard, ergo knives can cut it.

Also, there's a resin the layers are held in, and that's at least as worth considering as the kevlar itself, for knive protection.

 

[answerguy]

If I were unarmed or armed only with an edged weapon and someone attacked me with a knife or an icepick, I'd rather be wearing my body armor then not wearing it, even though it's note rated to stop a knife.

And I'd rather be wearing a thick leather coat than a t-shirt, but what's your point?

 

[Jeff White]

And I'd rather be wearing a thick leather coat than a t-shirt, but what's your point?

My point is, that kevlar is hard to cut. This is from the thread on lightfighter.net:

Here is my technique(for re-cutting panels),described right handed.I use a regular "Stanley" utility knife.

First I baste stich on both sides of my cut line,about 1/8" on each side,you might want to start with a larger margin.

I clamp the piece to my workbench,with the offcut side of the line just hanging over the edge of the table.

I hold the utility knife in my fist blade down,sharp toward me.

I put my right(cutting)arm down on the workpiece and grab the offcut with my left hand,sometimes when the offcut is small I'll use a locking plier or some other clamp device to grab the piece.

While I pull on the offcut with the left I cut with a sawing motion,the blade perpendicular to the kevlar.It's short strokes but it's fast` clean and requires no special tools.The basting keeps the layers neat,I'll usually run around the edges with binding tape if it's going to be abused(shoulder pads espacially)when I'm done.
I'll get about three four inches cut and stop and give the blade a lick on the diamond hone,don't wait for the blade to get dull.When I get tired one way I switch directions,having the basting lets me flip the piece over(so the off cut hangs over the bench) without worrying about matching the cut lines.

The thing about hanging the offcut over the bench is just something I found that makes the cutting easier,I can put some power in the downstroke.

I tried the jigsaw thing,works well especially if you take some time and really sharpen up a 'knife' blade,but I don't cut enough and I am wary of the dust/fibers blowing all over my shop.

Did you notice where the poster cuts about 3 or 4 inches then stops and hits his blade with diamond hone? I suppose that if you are going to stand there and let your attacker work on getting through your body armor with his knife, it's not much more protection then a leather coat. But it seems to me that your attacker would have difficulty drawing blood through your kevlar vest with a slashing attack and that even if your attacker tried an overhand stab, he would meet significantly more resistance trying to push it through the kevlar then he would a leather coat or t shirt.

Will a kevlar vest defeat an attack by an edged weapon? No. Will it make an attack with an edged weapon significantly more difficult? Yes. Persoanally, I'm not going to stand still while someone shoots at me with a .22 short or 25 acp while I'm wearing a level IIIA vest with level IV multi strike hard plates, secure in the knowledge that I'm bullet proof any more then I'd stand there in a chain mail shirt while someone attacked me with a table knife, secure in the knowledge that I was knife proof.

I wear kevlar body armor every day at work. I am confident that it gives me significantly more protection against an attack from an edged weapon then anything else I could wear that wasn't specifically designed to defeat an edged weapon.

Jeff

 

[Sir Aardvark]

just to throw in my 2 cents worth -

I've seen these things sewn together at the factory and they use BIG needles to stitch all the layers of fabric together. The needles go right through the fabric. Does this mean you need to worry about some crazy needle-wielding bad guy messing up your day - probably not.

 

[LawDog]

I'm a bit confused...if I get this right, during a Hollywood movie, a police officer is stabbed through his protective vest.

The reason why it was funny is the cop was wearing Kevlar body armor, which protects his torso and chest from sharp objects.

Then the blogger opines:

In real life, there’s no way the blade would have penetrated that body armor. Hey, it was funny.

In my experience, knives, screwdrivers and ice-picks go through body armour quite well, as long as the critter manning the knife, screwdriver or ice-pick is fairly determined.

*shrug*

On one paw you have a Hollywood movie, on the other paw you have an Internet Blogger.

Six of one, half-a-dozen of the other.

LawDog

 

[Teufelhunden]

sounds like he has exactly the fluffed up ego and sub-par mental faculties of a marine.

Inflamatory comments like these serve only to provoke anger, not thoughtful discussion. Also, for the record, Marine is a proper noun, so it deserves to be capitalized.

Back on-topic, I would point out that the military is not the only line of work where people use equipment with which they are not fully versed. There are plenty of people in the world that go to work, use what they're given, and go home without giving it a second thought. Some police pistol qualification courses are proof of this.

-Teuf (Also a former Marine)

 

[carebear]

Cause every dead horse needs a good whack....

Ever check the entry requirements for education for the Army and Marines?

At least when I went in, you had to have your high school diploma or GED prior to shipping off to boot.

The Army would take drop-outs pre-paper.

Matthew Carberry, Sergeant of Marines

 

[CannibalCrowley]

as a side point, are you sure it was a soldier, not a marine? sounds like he has exactly the fluffed up ego and sub-par mental faculties of a marine.

Maybe you should use your "mental faculties" and follow the provided link where the author states that he's in the Army.

Of course a quick trip to the link will also give a reason why he doesn't know the limitations of the equipment; he's a journalist, not a grunt.

 

[chopinbloc]

awwww, you know i'm just playin'. marines are just as important as any other branch. remember, there are no small warriors, just small wars. though, someone told me once that a marine's job was to get himself so totally effed that the soldiers would go "holy crap, we better save those guys!"
seriously i'm just a pog so all the bluster is just that. it is funny how the army, airforce and navy can make fun of eachother without getting their feelings hurt but the marines really take it hard if someone suggests they might not be the ultimate martial perfection their di's told them they were.
re troop's lack of knowledge of their gear. this is the case with both active and guard army, airforce and marine. haven't talked to enough navy personnel to tell (unless you count marines as navy ) there are so many "true facts" running around it gets tiresome setting folks straight. not to mention it annoys the crap out of people - they don't want to be right, they just want to know impressive stuff.
your body armor will stop anything or alternatively it won't stop anything.
the 5.56mm round tumbles immediately on exiting the barrel.
not allowed to shoot personnel with at4, .50, etc.
the ak47 is definitively a better weapon than the m16.
the barrel will explode if you attempt to fire your m16 with the dust plug still on.
5.56mm makes massive, cone shaped wounds in people.
5.56mm bounces around inside.
5.56mm makes completely ineffective wounds in people.
countless more, i'm sure you have better things to do.