Body armor defeating 9mm?

[BLB68]

Technically, William Tell missed a head shot.

 

[samweller]

Just how do some of you think an SD encounter might take place? It will usually be sudden and unexpected if you are away from home; if you are at home, you may be alerted, but you will be inside your house in cramped spaces, possibly dark. Do you hunt for the intruder or wait until he comes to you? In public, if you are alert, you may be aware of a developing threat (someone or a group approaching you)...so what do you do? Hopefully, you cross the street or change direction to see if they follow, if they do, you discreetly draw your weapon and hide it in the folds of your clothes or by your leg (safety should go off at this point). So, here he (they) comes...if they have a visible weapon, do you have time to issue a challenge? If not, you raise your weapon...when they see it, they either freeze (not likely) or run, duck, hide or, if they have gun, start shooting. Are you aware of the environment? Are there other attackers with them? Anybody behind you? Can you find cover, put your back to a wall or car (bullets will penetrate a car. If you crouch behind a car, get behind the wheel or you will get hit). Loved ones with you? Can you protect them? What about bystanders? If you miss that head shot from thirty feet who are you gonna' kill? If they run, you cannot shoot or you may get arrested..if they charge you (some will) can you make that long practiced head shot at the range on a moving target intent on killing you? What if you are sitting in your car and they suddenly approach your window? Can you draw or reach your pistol and make the shot from behind the wheel? Then there is the noise...gunfire, people yelling or screaming, crowd movement (at home, dog barking, kids screaming, where is your family/friends), bullets possibly whizzing by you (I always thought they sound like little bees) and whacking into cars or buildings, ricochets, your nervousness and fear, what if you receive a non-fatal wound...can you keep firing, stay oriented, focused? Most of us, even trained, often have to take what target we can get while trying to protect ourselves...everybody wants to go home tonight (you still lining up that head shot?). There are just too many factors to consider that cannot be re-created even in realistic training. Now, with all this, you are going to line up a head shot while crouching, prone, moving, or from cover in a combat situation under fire and make it...welcome to NCIS Tuesdays at 8. Tell Gibbs hi for me.

 

[Plan2Live]

You were the one that said its not up to us to step in

No, I said I am not a badged law enforcement officer and I have no sworn duty to come to the aid of others, especially strangers. "I" doesn't include "you" or "us".

Taking a shot, missing the assailant and striking an innocent will almost always bring on a criminal charge or civil suit. And since all we are doing here is fantasizing, I would add that such an outcome would only serve to fuel the cause of those wanting to limit our ability be able to defend ourselves in such a scenario. I can't think of a single scenario where not taking a shot brings on the same negative consequences. If I wind up in jail or sued to a point where I lose my accumulated wealth and any future earnings then I cannot support my family. As for any latent guilt for deciding to not take the shot and not risking other innocent lives, that is a no brainer. I have decided in advance that my first duty is to "do no harm" to innocents. That's a decision I can live with.

 

[samweller]

Plan2live is correct. You should avoid SD situations if at all possible. Be alert...awareness of your surroundings and what is going on is primary. Learn to scan parking lots and stores, be aware of what is behind you, you can privately racial profile as a citizen and should do so, don't go to stupid places at night; when traveling, try not to look like a tourist, don't get sucked into a road rage incident or a verbal confrontation...leave your macho at home...most tough guys I know are quiet and would surprise you, don't look like a potential victim. Check cars around you in parking lots. All that. This can become second nature with a little practice. Trust your instincts...often, if something looks like trouble it probably is. Finally, get the chip off your shoulder and forget the heroic fantasies about taking out gangs or terrorists. Trust me, you never want to be in that situation. Never, ever show your weapon unless you believe your life or your loved ones lives are in real danger. You do not always have to shoot, but you should always be ready to.

 

[AK103K]

You clearly believe you have a considerable amount of experience shooting on the move and further believe that you have acquired an unusual (statistically speaking) level of skill in this regard. A person with that level of experience AND who has become competent at that skill will have a much different chance of making headshots in a gunfight situation than someone who has never done anything other than shoot at a static target from a static standing position.

I do shoot a lot on the move, although I wouldnt say it was "considerable". I shoot once or twice a week, and that type of shooting is included at each outing.

You do also realize Im not suggesting or advocating taking moving head shots at 25 yards, and what Im talking about, is at across the room, 25 +/- and in distances. Im also not saying its the "only" response, but these days, it would likely be my response, if they are within what I consider to be acceptable distances, vest or no vest.

As far as those who only occasionally shoot standing still at static targets, and consider themselves "good shots", how well do you suppose they will do in general if things are anything but calm and static? And thats just the shooting part, or more likely for them, the getting shot part. Who in their right mind, will be standing still in something like what went on in CA?

I understand the majority of CCW carriers, and even gun people in general, dont practice regularly, and thats something that is on them to deal with. It is to me, a somewhat scary thought, but it is what it is.

Now, with all this, you are going to line up a head shot while crouching, prone, moving, or from cover in a combat situation under fire and make it...welcome to NCIS Tuesdays at 8. Tell Gibbs hi for me.

Well, since it appears you got it all figured out, and your all about TV, and practice is a waste of time, maybe we'll just all stay at home and watch NCIS like you (never seen it, by the way), and skip the daily/weekly practice.

I have decided in advance that my first duty is to "do no harm" to innocents. That's a decision I can live with.

No one is arguing against that. I would suggest, the only way to truly accomplish that though, is leave your gun at home. Maybe the car too.

You do not always have to shoot, but you should always be ready to.

So after all that, it simply comes down to the last part of your last sentence there. So, are you practiced enough, and at the top of your game, to the best of your abilities, or do you just carry that gun?


Im in no way suggesting you go all Rambo here, as a couple of you seem to want to suggest. Im not saying go look for a fight, or do anything that is above your capabilities or pay grade. Im simply saying, if you find yourself in the unfortunate circumstances that you need to use your gun, then hopefully, "you" put the time and effort in, and have the capability to do so. Dont take it out on me, if you havent.

 

[hso]

most-potentially-likely-to-defeat-body-armor 9mm?

None

 

[Plan2Live]

I would suggest, the only way to truly accomplish that though, is leave your gun at home. Maybe the car too.

You seem to have a "I'm Rambo and I don't miss" mentality with no understanding of potential liability beyond the video game playing out in your head. We don't get do-overs or health packs in real life. Thankfully, given your disregard for innocent bystanders, I am glad you have never had to use your ninja skills and I hope I nor any of my loved ones are in the same area as you if you ever do. I would suggest taking Massad Ayoob's MAG 40 class.

Remember, all of those unarmed people you are rushing in to save had the same options we did and chose not to be prepared. In my mind, that's on them, not on me.

Rule #4: Know your target and what lies beyond it.

 

[AK103K]

You seem to have a "I'm Rambo and I don't miss" mentality with no understanding of potential liability beyond the video game playing out in your head.

No such illusions.

Thankfully, given your disregard for innocent bystanders...

Your assumption, based in what fact?

Remember, all of those unarmed people you are rushing in to save had the same options we did and chose not to be prepared. In my mind, that's on them, not on me.

First off, Im not rushing in to save anyone, thats your statement. I never said that was my thought or intent. But you are right, it is on them if they chose not to be prepared. Just like its on the gun carrier, if they arent. Im trying my best to do just that. How about you?

Rule #4: Know your target and what lies beyond it.

I know the rules.

I work hard at doing my best to try and negate the bad things, and in other ways besides typing. As a matter of fact, Im on the way to the range when Im done with you here. How about you? How much time you got in this week pushing your limits?

 

[hso]

The challenge with head shots vs. COM is that the head moves much more than the COM. Practice with a moving head target moving left/right and up/down to hone your skills at head shots and commit to timing those shots for when the best chance to hit the vital triangle occurs.

 

[Jeff White]

I don't understand the point of this conversation. Don't we train for a failure to stop regardless of if we think the assailant is wearing body armor? There are no magic bullets and it's highly likely you may have a failure to stop even if your assailant is bare chested. Maybe you missed altogether. Maybe in the dynamic gunfight you are in your perfect shot was spoiled because the assailant was also moving and you didn't hit the heart, lungs or aorta and his blood pressure isn't dropping fast enough to render him unconscious and out of the fight. Maybe your assailant is one of those people who is going to absorb 16 hits and keep coming. We give soldiers who do that the Medal of Honor. Maybe after penetrating an arm, shattering bone your round didn't penetrate into the torso far enough to immediately incapacitate your foe. Given that all of those things can happen and have happened in the past and we already train to deal with them, why are we suddenly worried about a terrorist with body armor and talking about changing our engagement techniques?

If you are already training for a failure to stop (and in my opinion you should have been training for that from day one) why is it necessary to select different ammunition or change your training to deal with it? A failure to stop is a failure to stop regardless of why you didn't stop your assailant.

In my opinion the only time you should change your engagement technique to head shot only is if you suspect the attacker is wearing a suicide vest rigged with explosives. Then you want to do your best to get the mythical "no reflex kill" so they can't trigger the device.

It turns out that in the San Bernardino event they were not wearing body armor but they were wearing chest rigs with extra magazines in them. In 2003 there was testing done for the Navy on the penetration of various military rifle rounds against the rather ubiquitous chest rig loaded with steel AK magazines. The results were a bit surprising.

The rounds were fired through standard metal AK47 magazines loaded with Norinco 7.62x39 M43 steel core 123 grain full metal jacket ammunition that were placed directly against 60 pound blocks of calibrated ordnance gelatin covered by 4 layers of denim.

M118LR 7.62x51 175 grain open tip match
M855 5.56x45 62 grain full metal jacket
MK262 Mod 1 5.56x45 77 grain open tip match
6.8x43 mm 110 grain open tip match

Were the rounds that were tested. The M118LR was tested at 3 different velocities to simulate the different ranges a sniper might engage from.

The first test was M118LR at a muzzle velocity of 2455 fps (to simulate 100 meter engagement distance). The ammunition in the magazines burst into flames with each shot and the bullets had an average penetration of 13.4 inches with a large temporary cavity of 6.3 inches. Those wounds would likely have been fatal.

However performance dropped off significantly as the engagement range increased.

At 1900 feet per second, a 400 meter engagement range, penetration was down to 7.9 inches and the temporary cavity was minimal.

At 1600 feet per second, a 600 meter engagement range, penetration was only 4.1 inches and pieces of magazine and 7.62x39 ammunition were carried into the wound channel.

The 5.56mm ammunition didn't fare any better. At 2975 feet per second the M855 broke up with only the steel penetrator and one other fragment penetrating to 7.9 inches. The maximum temporary cavity was 3.1 inches.

The MK 262 Mod 1 penetrated to 3.9 inches with a temporary cavity of 2.6 inches.

The 6.8x43mm did the best at 11.8 inches penetration with a 4.7 inch temporary cavity at 2673 feet per second.

I'm not aware of any tests on the penetration of loaded magazines with common defensive handgun ammunition, but even though we shoot heavier bullets from our defensive handguns we fire them at significantly lower velocities.

Just something else to think about........I still stand by my original thoughts that we all should have been training for a failure to stop situation from the day we started training and I really don't see any need to change that training.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I do shoot a lot on the move, although I wouldnt say it was "considerable". I shoot once or twice a week, and that type of shooting is included at each outing.

When you say "on the move", do you mean run and gun (run between stations and then shoot), or actually on the move?

I do both, as well as moving targets. I can say positively that you moving and shooting is the most difficult scenario to score hits, even if your target is stationary.

I'm lucky enough to have a private range were we can pretty well do what we want, including shooting while running with fully automatic firearms belonging to an FFL07 SOT friend. Shooting while moving at a good clip, I have difficulty scoring more than a few hits (like 3-5) out of 30 rounds on a static target that is 50 yards away, even when closing that distance. The fact that the ratio is similar with semi-auto and full auto fire is also telling; if I'm not moving, my accuracy is far better with semi auto.

And that's with a rifle.

Using handguns at 50 feet, the ratio of hits is about the same; ~15-20% on the silhouette.

If you've never done it, you cannot really comprehend how much more difficult shooting while moving is than running and gunning. Forget just dealing with the heavy breathing and increased heart rate components if IDPA style stuff; shooting on the move is a whole 'nother ball game.

I realize that a lot of ranges don't allow it for a number of reasons, but if you have the opportunity, give it a try. It'll be an eye opener. The operator taking out a bad guy or two with a couple shots out of his suppressed MK23 or a short burst from the M4 while sprinting between cover is pure hollywood.

 

[AK103K]

When you say "on the move", do you mean run and gun (run between stations and then shoot), or actually on the move?

Both, but mostly quickly getting off the "X", and drawing and shooting as I go.

I can say positively that you moving and shooting is the most difficult scenario to score hits, even if your target is stationary.

Yes and no. Distance is usually the factor.

I'm lucky enough to have a private range were we can pretty well do what we want, including shooting while running with fully automatic firearms belonging to an FFL07 SOT friend. Shooting while moving at a good clip, I have difficulty scoring more than a few hits (like 3-5) out of 30 rounds on a static target that is 50 yards away, even when closing that distance. The fact that the ratio is similar with semi-auto and full auto fire is also telling; if I'm not moving, my accuracy is far better with semi auto.

Im lucky enough to have a similar range, and we can do pretty much anything we want, as long as we're safe. None of the restrictions on speed, holsters, moving, full auto, etc. I do shoot some rifle (iron sighted/red dot equipped AR's/AK's) in a similar fashion as you describe, but not at those distances, 25 yards and in usually. Beyond that, I usually take a knee, squat, or butt when I shoot.


FA is like anything else, practice makes better. I was big into them from the early 80's through Obama getting in. Just couldnt see risking all that accrued equity on a signature on a dictate (Reagan did make me a good bit of money because of one though). Put that money to better use. Got rid of my last, a MAC a couple of years back and turned it into a couple of suppressors. A couple of my buddies still have them, so I still get to play now and then.

Once you get the tecnique down, FA isnt near as intimidating as it might at first seem. Trying to hold the gun on target generally brings the opposite result, and the gun wants to run up and away, generally in the direction of the hand holding it. If you relax, and "ride" the gun, like a fire hose, and keep bringing the rounds back to where you want them, full mag dumps, especially with pistol caliber guns, are pretty easy. Of course, this is all pretty much close range stuff. 25 yards to me, would be a long shot in FA, semi makes much more sense, and is much more effective.

This was my last target, the last day out with the MAC. Two full mag dumps at 10 yards. 50 rounds in about three seconds, with two pulls on the trigger (1 each mag).....

Using handguns at 50 feet, the ratio of hits is about the same; ~15-20% on the silhouette.

As the distance increases, my speed decreases, or flat out stops (more like run and gun). My sight usage also increases, and becomes more focused. I may start and shoot while moving at 50', but Im usually moving in towards the target as I go when I do. At that point, Im not moving real fast, but I am moving, and generally straight on, or just slightly laterally to the target. As I get closer, my speed tends to pick up, both in movement and shooting. I normally dont have any troubles keeping all my rounds on target at 15 yards while moving in though. Im not "running", or even walking fast, when I start to shoot either.

 

[stressed]

Gimmick load Liberty Defense +P 50gr will penetrate IIIa. How do I know? I've done it with a glock 19. Velocity is key.

 

[AK103K]

How do the gimmick rounds work on their own? That load sounds like it might act a lot like the old Glasser Safety Slug in soft tissue. Does it penetrate?

If and when it gets through the vest, whats it got left?

I thought those type rounds (or anything fired from a handgun that would pierce a vest) all fell under the armor piercing regs? Remember the PMC Ultramag's (flying donuts)? What about the Geco "BAT"/Blitz Action Trauma's (not sure about these though)? KTW's ? I guess those are all just collector's items any more.

You always see these type rounds pop up, but you never seem to see them hang on to long.

 

[MachIVshooter]

At that point, Im not moving real fast, but I am moving, and generally straight on, or just slightly laterally to the target

That's a little different than the drills we're doing trying to simulate real combat. Shooting on the run, and I do mean on the run, from one piece of cover or concealment to the next. Scoring hits at a purposeful walking pace isn't near as difficult as doing it one gait shy of a dead sprint. Sights are pretty much useless with that amount of movement, so it becomes more point shooting.

Why practice that way? Because I can't see myself walking or even jogging when I'm dodging incoming rounds in a real world scenario, however unlikely it may be. It's also a lot more interesting than putting round after round into COM on a static target.

 

[JohnKSa]

I do shoot a lot on the move, although I wouldnt say it was "considerable". I shoot once or twice a week, and that type of shooting is included at each outing.

You do something once or twice a week that most gun owners have never done. That's definitely going to fit the bill for "considerable".

You do also realize Im not suggesting or advocating taking moving head shots at 25 yards, and what Im talking about, is at across the room, 25 +/- and in distances.

I understand. From what I see at public ranges, it's not uncommon for shooters to miss human-sized targets at that kind of distance when shooting from a static position with no pressure whatsoever.

I do agree that head shots should be practiced, but I wouldn't advocate that head shots should be a first resort.

Even as when used as a "failure to stop" option, there's the danger that the failure to stop isn't due to body armor but is due to misses. In that case, shifting the target from COM to head isn't going to be productive.

Finally, even when body armor is employed, COM hits can still provide a measure of value. Police credit Mark Wilson's hits on Arroyo for cutting short his shooting spree at the Tyler courthouse. Even though the hits did not defeat Arroyo's "body armor" they did distract him from his "mission" and likely motivated him to flee the scene after killing Wilson.

 

[AK103K]

Shooting on the run, and I do mean on the run, from one piece of cover or concealment to the next.

In that case, at longer distances, Id say shoot or run, or shoot then run. Never said I was an "expert". When you say "we're", I think of covering fire.

Why practice that way? Because I can't see myself walking or even jogging when I'm dodging incoming rounds in a real world scenario, however unlikely it may be.

Not everything fits every scenario. One problem with theses sort of threads. Theres always that "but what if".

Soooo, "what if" ........

It's also a lot more interesting than putting round after round into COM on a static target.

Yup. And anything generating good hits beyond that, usually raises your confidence level quite a bit too.

I understand. From what I see at public ranges, it's not uncommon for shooters to miss human-sized targets at that kind of distance when shooting from a static position with no pressure whatsoever.

I do agree that head shots should be practiced, but I wouldn't advocate that head shots should be a first resort.

Even as when used as a "failure to stop" option, there's the danger that the failure to stop isn't due to body armor but is due to misses. In that case, shifting the target from COM to head isn't going to be productive.

Ive seen the same thing, and as I said earlier thats a scary thing, yet that doesnt seem to bother some.

Again, as Ive said before, Im simply saying head shots at close distances make more sense to me, for the results they normally bring. If they are that close.... Next time, I know not to bring it up.

If the failure to stop at COM is due to misses, its back to scary stuff. Im not telling anyone not to carry a gun, but..... "what if..."

 

[JWH321]

My boss used to say, "...aim for the beard."

 

[Jeff White]

Shooting while moving at a good clip, I have difficulty scoring more than a few hits (like 3-5) out of 30 rounds on a static target that is 50 yards away, even when closing that distance.

No one shoots any better when moving at a good clip. It's physically impossible for anyone to run, shoot and make hits unless the screenwriter wrote the scene that way and the special effects people set it up. No one, no matter what they might say on the Internet can run, even on a basketball court and disconnect his torso so that the bouncing movement of his legs is not transmitted to the rest of his body.

There are only a couple situations where considering the relatively slow speed one can shoot while moving and make effective hits that it might be more tactically sound to shoot while moving rather then sprinting if you need to move. It's a technique that's best used in an enclosed area where your movement is going to be limited anyway, such as a room, hallway, corridor, storm sewer etc.

As for head shots, try this the next time you go to the range. Buy a bag of balloons, a tank of helium and a ball of string.

Fill the balloons with helium ant tie them so they float between 5 and 6 feet up. Start at 15 yards and move parallel to the targets at the best speed you can make hits at (no stopping to shoot) and see how many you can hit as they bob around in the breeze. 15 yards, 45 feet, probably a good approximation of the engagement range against an active shooter in a large venue.

 

[MachIVshooter]

As for head shots, try this the next time you go to the range. Buy a bag of balloons, a tank of helium and a ball of string.

Fill the balloons with helium ant tie them so they float between 5 and 6 feet up. Start at 15 yards and move parallel to the targets at the best speed you can make hits at (no stopping to shoot) and see how many you can hit as they bob around in the breeze. 15 yards, 45 feet, probably a good approximation of the engagement range against an active shooter in a large venue.

I think you may have confused aspects of my posts with those of others. I've never claimed head shots are easy; my contention is that scoring hits in a dynamic situation with the target, the shooter or both moving is much more difficult than many people realize. I'm a pretty decent shot, I'm in pretty good shape, and I engage in a respectable amount of practice that includes aspects many people can't or don't do, such as shooting while running I mentioned, and also night time work using both weapon lights and night optics. I know how difficult it is to effectively engage moving targets, I know how muzzle flash of various weapons affects your vision and concentration, I know what it really looks like to shoot a living thing through a NVRS in the dark, etc.

In spite of that (more likely, because of that) I don't have illusions about how chaotic, confusing and stressful a real situation, especially an active shooter or multiple threat one, would be. I do not harbor fantastical visions of myself as a vigilante hero taking the body-armor clad, AK wielding bad guy out with my pocket 9mm.

No. Instead, those mental scenarios involve trying to remain undetected and out of the line of fire while I get my family to safety, engaging an enemy who has me outgunned only as a last resort.

But that doesn't mean practicing dynamic shooting is silly, or that using weapons I don't normally carry renders that practice valueless.

 

[Jeff White]

I think you are totally misreading my post. I was simply suggesting a training technique. It's hard but it can be done.

We stapled balloon to the head of B27 targets for a range session at the PD. The light breeze bobbed them around enough that some officers had trouble making hits from 7 yards when shooting a failure drill at speed.

Making hits while both the shooter and the target are stationary is relatively easy. Making hits while the shooter is moving and that target is stationary is much more difficult.
Making hits while both the shooter and target are moving is very difficult.

I'm not a big proponent of the head as the primary target even as part of a failure drill. You can very easily disrupt an attack by firing what some instructors call a burst of fire or a nonstandard response to COM. That is 5-10 rounds fired as fast as you control the gun. Body armor or not, the attacker isn't going to stand there and absorb that fire laughing all the time. You will disrupt the attack.

10 fast hits to COM is going to be preferable to 10 fast misses to the head.

 

[ACP]

"You will disrupt the attack. 10 fast hits to COM is going to be preferable to 10 fast misses to the head."

Great advice from Jeff White, as usual.

I think we've drifted quite a bit from the OP's question, which had to do with what 9mm round best penetrates body armor, vis-a-vis what the SB terrorists were originally reported as wearing, but weren't.

Not that it hasn't been interesting/entertaining, though.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I think we've drifted quite a bit from the OP's question, which had to do with what 9mm round best penetrates body armor, vis-a-vis what the SB terrorists were originally reported as wearing, but weren't.

I'd say a very beneficial redirection from impractical solutions (penetrating body armor with a CCW) to pragmatic ones on how to deal with an armored threat when all you have is a handgun.

 

[Plan2Live]

dbmjr1 said:

If I'm armed and people are getting shot around me, I'd pray that the courage to defend the innocent would find me. I would hope I would not run, to allow others to be slaughtered. I don't think I could live with myself if I did. There's a word for that attitude.

Yes, choosing to exit the situation safely if that opportunity presents itself rather than abandoning the safety that opportunity presents and "running toward the sound of gunfire" if you are not paid to perform that job is called common sense, especially if you have a family relying on you to be alive to support them.

Remember, every one of those adult victims involved in a mass shooting or even a random criminal encounter had the same options available to them that I did and chose to not be prepared. That's on them, not me.

 

[old lady new shooter]

As for head shots, try this the next time you go to the range. Buy a bag of balloons, a tank of helium and a ball of string.

Fill the balloons with helium ant tie them so they float between 5 and 6 feet up. Start at 15 yards and move parallel to the targets at the best speed you can make hits at (no stopping to shoot) and see how many you can hit as they bob around in the breeze. 15 yards, 45 feet, probably a good approximation of the engagement range against an active shooter in a large venue.

I wish there were even a range around here where a person could try such a thing. <sigh>

(Not that I'm ready to try shooting while moving, justsayinzall. I would like to try shooting at a moving target though, even though at this point it would just be an experiment.)