Body armor defeating 9mm?

[2ndunamended]

Last week I started a mini-firestorm on another forum by asking if the 5.7x45 was a good defensive/counter-attack round to use in a "Paris-like attack" scenario (contingent on having a 5.7-capable handgun as your carry piece). My takeaway from that very informative thread is that most are better off using a 9mm weapon (or something else in which we have confidence).

Today, as we learn the details of the shooting in San Bernadino, CA, I further consider my personal choice to carry a 9mm (G17 or G26). Given my decision to carry a 9mm (as well as a spare mag) at all times, I ponder what with which I will load my backup mag. My carry 9mm is a Hornady 135 gr. +P Critical Duty (or equivalent). After learning that the assailants in the San Bernadino shooting were wearing body armor, I'm considering what my backup mag should be loaded with- so that in a similar situation I could simply switch mags if I was forced to act with deadly retaliatory/self-defense force.

I'm not a keyboard commando, nor do I endeavor to be involved in such a situation. But I'm not an ostrich, and I will not put my head in the sand.

Therefore, what is the best, hottest, most-potentially-likely-to-defeat-body-armor 9mm? Or, is the best alternative to aim for the head (2 COM, 1 in the head)? For the purpose of this discussion, let's assume that we are not able to run for the nearest exit, and that we've made the decision to engage the bad guy shooter(s). Let's also assume that we are carrying a handgun, whether or not we are in <edit> California.

 

[Zardaia]

Failure drills. Handgun vs armored assailant, headshot's best bet, although depending on the person and type of armor the first couple to the vest may at least hurt enough to momentarily slow him dow for the follow up. True AP handgun ammo's pretty much illegal.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

X2 on failure drills.

 

[samweller]

Shoot lower abdomen and upper legs. Lots to bleed there and lots of pain.

 

[Deaf Smith]

First off, AP pistol ammo is illegal.

Second off, yes failure drills.

Third off, shotgun blast to the face might be best (if you can get to one.)

Deaf

 

[AK103K]

Anymore in practice, if Im close, somewhere around 7 yards and in, I dont even bother going COM, and focus strictly on the head. Its not that hard a target to hit, even when moving and no sights, and has a much better chance of bringing about a quicker end to things.

Even when I do shoot COM, its usually tends to be more of a vertical string than a group, that slides into a Mozambique.

Also, if theres any thought that theres armor, why waste the precious time and resources COM?

I understand the thoughts on shooting in the lower abdomen/pelvis areas, and if it brings them down, great, but you'd best be right on that head, as the chances of them still being a threat, is still very high.

 

[M-Cameron]

First off, AP pistol ammo is illegal.

is it illegal to own?.....or is it illegal to manufacture new stock?

i was under the impression it was the later.......so assuming you can find some laying around, would it not be legal to carry?

 

[beeb173]

22 TCM conversion kits for Glock 17 are available. there are videos on you tube of that round defeating body armor and your magazines will be lighter.

whether or not you need to worry about terrorists w/ body armor....

 

[jmorris]

First thought.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofQ6i9I1IYY

I have several pistols that normal hunting ammunition would defeat body armor even though it's not "AP".

 

[RaceM]

Head, groin, arm hole in vest, lower back/butt.

 

[Mayvik]

If someone wants armor you can mail order steel plate for $100 that will stop any handgun including AR/AK pistols. If you suspect armor aim for the pelvic girdle, upper thorax (neck) or head.

Anything you attempt to stuff in a handgun with intent to "defeat" armor is going to grossly overpenetrate soft targets and not expand.

Considering rounds with more penetration for vehicle/barrier applications ia a special case.

 

[jmorris]

Today, as we learn the details of the shooting in San Bernadino, CA, I further consider my personal choice to carry a 9mm (G17 or G26).

Would have been better than what anyone there had. FWIW neither of the two killers yesterday had any kind of body armor on.

 

[Plan2Live]

Do we have credible information on whether the two assailants had body armor or just tactical vests? Personally I'm not going to even try to gear up for what I perceive to be a limited threat. As others have said, if center mass doesn't work you shoot for the pelvis. If that doesn't work then go for the upper legs or anything else that is exposed. Depending on the scenario I might even aim for the weapon itself or the hands if everything else failed and I was still able to return fire.

 

[jmorris]

Yes, at least SBPD chief J Burguan said they didn't in a news conference.

That is why I said they did not above.

If you have Fox News on rewind it to 9:44 pt, it's still on.

 

[Theohazard]

After learning that the assailants in the San Bernadino shooting were wearing body armor

Has that been confirmed with any kind of accuracy?

It seems like any time a shooter wears any kind of tactical vest, the media reports that it's body armor. And usually it turns out that it was just a vest with no armor.

 

[AK103K]

Personally I'm not going to even try to gear up for what I perceive to be a limited threat. As others have said, if center mass doesn't work you shoot for the pelvis. If that doesn't work then go for the upper legs or anything else that is exposed.

Not to switch gears here, but it is relevant. Since there seems to be a lot of "outgoing" shooting involved here, and for just one person/target, does this change thoughts on only carrying the smaller, back up type guns that are so popular and fashionable these days? Things just get exponentially worse when there are multiple shooters, like in this case, and especially if they know their stuff, and are working together. Armor just magnifies the issue.

 

[Sunray]

Doubt there's any 9mm ammo that'd defeat any body armour. In any case, according to the LA Times, the criminals used rifles. It's not a good idea for a virtually untrained(CCW class isn't enough) to tangle with rifle armed criminals armed solely with handgun.
"...AR/AK pistols..." Aren't. They're really SMG's chambered in rifle calibres. Take a very heavy hunk of steel plate to stop either 7.62 x 39 or 5.56.

 

[jmorris]

Doubt there's any 9mm ammo that'd defeat any body armour. In any case, according to the LA Times, the criminals used rifles. It's not a good idea for a virtually untrained(CCW class isn't enough) to tangle with rifle armed criminals armed solely with handgun.

Again, they were not wearing any armor; however, I can guarantee you one thing, if I were one of the 14 dead or 21 wounded I would have much rather had a Glock 26 then wait the 5 minutes on the police.

 

[AK103K]

I can guarantee you one thing, if I were one of the 14 dead or 21 wounded I would have much rather had a Glock 26 then wait the 5 minutes on the police.

You and me both!

 

[Plan2Live]

AK103k said:

does this change thoughts on only carrying the smaller, back up type guns that are so popular and fashionable these days?

I can't speak for others. My primary carry has a 3.6 inch barrel and 8+1 capacity. I always carry one spare magazine. I decided a while back that if that isn't sufficient then I will probably be toast long before I ever touch off the last of those 17 rounds.

 

[AK103K]

My point is, and especially if youre dealing with limited rounds in the gun, you dont have the luxury of wasting them on anything but the kill switch?

Not that theres any luxury in there at all, no matter how many rounds you have on board.

If youre reasonably close (and even if youre not), the head is really the only sensible target.

 

[Deaf Smith]

is it illegal to own?.....or is it illegal to manufacture new stock?

i was under the impression it was the later.......so assuming you can find some laying around, would it not be legal to carry?

http://smartgunlaws.org/federal-law-on-ammunition-regulation/

"Armor-Piercing Ammunition

Federal law prohibits the manufacture, importation, sale or delivery of armor-piercing ammunition, with very limited exceptions.10 In particular, specific exceptions exist for armor-piercing ammunition that is manufactured for certain federal and state government divisions, exportation, or testing.11 The Director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) may also exempt certain armor-piercing ammunition primarily intended for sporting or industrial purposes.12"

At least for handguns you can own it.. shoot it.. but cannot buy it or make it. If you have any it must be old stuff.

Deaf

 

[AK103K]

At least for handguns you can own it.. shoot it.. but cannot buy it or make it. If you have any it must be old stuff.

Yet again, another silly, and basically unenforceable "rule".

To bad it doesnt work that way with pre 68 machine guns, especially the WWII German guns.

 

[Jenrick]

Also define body armor. If you're talking soft panels there are a few calibers out there that might work. If you mean rifle plates, then pretty much nothing you can run out of a 9mm breech face is going to penetrate.

-Jenrick

 

[kBob]

In the way back before folks got freaked over AP in pistols I defeated a swath of what Second Chance was calling Z9 soft body armor with some Czech 9x19 mm from a Ruger Blackhawk. This was a swath that was supposed to stop 9x19 ball (FMC or FMJ) fired from SMGs. It did stop "NATO" level FMJ from the Ruger.

I have very little doubt that the French made Arcane ammo I used in Europe would have little difficulty penetrating level II soft body armor without plates like say the US Palm stuff.

The old M1967 fragmentation vest that the 1980's survivalist were all hot for did not stop 9x19mm Geco FMJ fired from an Astra 600 in my direct personal experience.....well I guess the back did stop it but that would have made little difference to anyone wearing it as it penetrated the front fully.

Meanwhile this is moot as the laws have all been modified to prevent the vast majority of us "civilians" from purchasing or using AP pistol ammo regardless of what we might have been in the way back or wish we were now.

Consider for a moment that you are more likely to die from an insect bite than one of these mass shootings. Do you carry an Epi-pin?

-kBob