Body armor defeating 9mm?

[jrdolall]

I once saw a guy rolling on the floor with a pistol in each hand making head shots on a moving target so I know it can be done.

I practice firing on the move more as a method to keep an attacker pinned down than with any thoughts of actually making hits. Firing at a stationary target while moving quickly towards cover I doubt that I get 5% hits at 25 yards, again, that's not my intention so I don't record that figure. I am not talking about a tactical move but a "haul butt to another spot move".

I practice prone shooting only at static targets and I myself remain static. Not optimal but it's what I do. I practice in my front yard so I can do whatever I want.

I hope I never have to face down ANY attacker much less one in body armor. Let's face it, most of us, even the ones that train extensively, aren't really preparing to face down multiple armed terrorists with body armor, high explosives, and AK's. We are preparing to take on 1-2 thugs that are trying to rob the store we are in, have broken into our home, or attack us in a parking lot. We train that way because those scenarios are 1000% more likely than having to deal with terrorists.

If I ever find myself in this situation I hope my training kicks in and I don't pee my pants. I imagine that I will, out of force of habit, take COM shots. Thinking about this type of situation makes you realize that a 15 round 9mm will be small comfort compared to using it against two knife wielding burglars.

 

[JShirley]

Once on the ground and the danger to innocent bystanders is minimized then I would take the head shot.

If you're suggesting taking a definite kill shot after the threat is no longer threatening, then you're leaving out the "- and go to jail" part.

I once saw a guy rolling on the floor with a pistol in each hand making head shots on a moving target so I know it can be done.

I think I saw that exact thing, too. In a movie.

John

 

[AK103K]

I just came across this elsewhere, and found it an interesting, and in a way, a somewhat relevant study, since things have expanded.

Now I know what they are referring to are "games", but dont rush to judgement and discount them (the military and police use them), they do teach/condition you, and people who many not be gun people (think about that), to "shoot people", and with most of the targets moving, something all the generic shape targets most seem to practice on, dont.

Interesting findings anyway....

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/shootaim.htm

Since we all seem to be carriers of guns here, and since "range time" isnt the only time to practice, how many practice regularly in other ways, when not at the range? Dry fire, presentations/holster work, airsoft, "games", etc?

 

[JShirley]

Since I carry knives even more frequently than guns- having often been in places or even states where firearms concealed carry was controlled or illegal- I have frequently practiced presentations and first strikes with my carry knives. I think this is especially important, considering the much closer spacing required for knife defense.

 

[lemaymiami]

When this thread first appeared my initial thought was that it was absurd on its face since every model of soft body armor I've ever worn would defeat 9mm rounds....

(and I go back so long ago it was when a young cop had to buy his/her own -those first generation Second Chance items - that were the only thing available on the market back then - for me it was 1974....).

I wore body armor for darned nearly every day from 1973 until I retired out in 1995 and disliked everything about it. Down here in south Florida the stuff, even as the state of the art improved, was hot, uncomfortable, and many pros simply couldn't wear it daily.... None of this advances the discussion except to note that on top of being tough to live with, body armor doesn't cover a lot of vulnerable places on the human torso.... Matter of fact I remember several cases where young officers died wearing body armor that didn't cover enough... In one case the killing round (the only one fired in a midnight struggle in the bushes) was a cheap, small 25 auto round that killed a strong, very capable officer DRT -it penetrated between his ribs on the side of his torso (where the vest didn't cover) and right through his heart. There's still a park north of Miami that bears his name -and I was present at his house just after his widow (a fellow officer on my department) was notified... just before dawn. Not a good day at all.

The point here is that if you're confronted with a possibly armored opponent - there's plenty of places still vulnerable to gunfire.... Many of them will take an opponent out of the fight - but you might have to work at it a bit. A solid hit to an opponent's foot for instance if they're behind a car might bring him/her to the ground where a second shot (or third, or however many is needed...) might end the threat. I learned early on that most under severe stress (scared to death for all you beginners...) is quite likely to shoot high in a gunfight. That's one of the reasons (among many) to hit the ground if rounds are coming your way.... The lesson I learned was for me... to aim right at my opponents belt buckle (or a bit lower.... no nice guys in gunfights..). Hits count and most body armor ends at your beltline - just above it for every vest I ever wore.... Lots of discussion here about head shots, etc. Just remember that if you suspect you're facing an armored opponent hits to the pelvic region, the neck and head, or to the side if you get an opportunity might gain you some results and if you can keep your head under fire and actually deliver the rounds where needed you should see results...

That out of the way now I'm going to state why engaging in an armed confrontation where you're heavily outgunned (and most likely taken by surprise like all the other potential victims) is a very bad idea unless you have no other choice -and even then you'd better pick your moment or you're wasting the moment and will pay for it... Put simply a handgun operator is at a terrible disadvantage against anyone with military grade weapons (no matter how well Stallone, Willis, Eastwood, and every other one of our movie heroes can do it...). We learned that sort of stuff years ago the hard way down here in paradise during the so-called cocaine wars when an ordinary street cop might really stumble on multiple subjects with automatic weapons (before AKs were common on the streets -usually 9mm or 45.cal stuff). One young officer I knew thought our department didn't offer enough advancement (or let's face it -excitement...) so he left us and went with city of Miami. Back then, with only a year's service on the street -he was considered a skilled veteran and actually had a rookie riding with him the day of his encounter.... After they pulled over an SUV (sound familiar after last Friday?) with dark tinted windows for something minor his first notice that he was in a fight for his life was when the rear window of the SUV exploded - a shooter armed with an M16 had opened up on them from inside the SUV at a distance of less than 20 feet -while they were seated in their patrol car..... Why the shooter wasn't successful is anyone's guess but they took a clip's worth of rounds into their windshield in just a moment. The young training officer got off with only a piece of his ear missing.... and both he and the rookie retreated and went to cover while yelling for help.... The point is we learned to withdraw, fall back, to survive - and we were armed.... We also learned to train our officers to be very cautious when coming into an area where there might be a superior force in action. Those tactics had to be un-learned after Columbine (and the number of responders wounded in the most recent Colorado incident..... also points out that there's a cost if you're going after active shooters to save lives -but that's not for this discussion....).

Here's how I will respond if in such a situation.... Instead of shooting back against superior firepower my first response is to go to cover (and do my darndest to move anyone with me to cover as well). My simultaneous action will be to look for ways to exit the area (if there are any...). Then and only then will I consider acting to stop the threat (on the street, if I'm in a car - the car will be my weapon.... if it's feasible).

Lots more to say about this sort of stuff - but best said privately....

 

[old lady new shooter]

I think I saw that exact thing, too. In a movie.

If I'm not mistaken, the heroic sergeant-at-arms in the Canadian parliament situation did intentionally drop to the floor, and killed the terrorist from a supine position.

 

[old lady new shooter]

If you're suggesting taking a definite kill shot after the threat is no longer threatening, then you're leaving out the "- and go to jail" part.

I was waiting for someone to point that out...

 

[old lady new shooter]

Since we all seem to be carriers of guns here, and since "range time" isnt the only time to practice, how many practice regularly in other ways, when not at the range? Dry fire, presentations/holster work, airsoft, "games", etc?

I made a list of all the scenarios I could think of that could happen in my home and I practice dryfiring for them.

 

[AK103K]

I dry fire and practice presentations at home pretty much every day. Not a whole lot of time, maybe 30 minutes to an hour total over the day, and not usually a solid bock of time in a row, but spread out as I feel like it.

One advantage to doing it daily is, I get to practice in all the clothes I might be wearing at any given moment, and there is, or can be a difference there.

The bigger flat screen TV's these days, work great for presentations too, and the targets generally are not still very long, and often offer targets of different perspectives and ranges. I find this can often be very humbling, and is also a very big help.

Daily life anywhere you go gives you constant and endless possibilities to run in your mind, if youre paying attention. Real life as opposed to scenarios you always win in your mind, is also a big wake up, once you realize just how close, and also how far, some shots could be, or really are.

Most dont seem to want to believe or confront the possibility of the longer shots, but many of those shots are often deceptive in true distance, until you actually walk them off. 50 yards in the real world, really isnt that far, and I think many often misjudge things by quite a bit. Just pace things off when youre out and about, and I think youll see what I mean.

 

[JohnKSa]

I made a list of all the scenarios I could think of that could happen in my home and I practice dryfiring for them.

Good thinking. Don't forget some low-light practice too.

 

[jrdolall]

Quote:
I once saw a guy rolling on the floor with a pistol in each hand making head shots on a moving target so I know it can be done.
I think I saw that exact thing, too. In a movie.

The Bazinga was implied. I think it was either Willis is a Die Hard movie or maybe Gibson in one of his shoot 'em up films. But if a Hollywood actor can do it then so can I.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JShirley View Post
If you're suggesting taking a definite kill shot after the threat is no longer threatening, then you're leaving out the "- and go to jail" part.

I think he was trying to say that, once prone, the threat to bystanders from HIS shots was gone since his shots would now be at an upward angle. I see the reasoning but don't know if it is sound or not.

I have to agree with what some others have stated in that running away is the best option. There is an old saying "a good run is better than a bad stand" and, where gunfire is concerned, I agree completely. I think we all have a certain place deep down where we think we can save the damsel by charging in and taking out the bad guy. We should stand and fight to save ourselves and our loved ones if we have no opportunity for escape but we need to be prepared for the possibility that we won't be able to escape.

I am a big proponent of training but I also know that it has its limits in effectiveness. I played football and baseball at an SEC school in the 80's. We didn't have limitations on practice hours so we practiced until the coaches decided we were finished. You can train all week in situations that are as realistic as possible but when Bo Jackson gets the ball you probably won't do as well as you thought you would. You could do everything right...and he would still win. The same was true of Herschel Walker. I don't care what scheme you put together for double teams, rollouts, reverses, draws, Cornelius Bennett could figure it out and beat you. No amount of batting practice can prepare you to face Roger Clemons. Bigger, faster, stronger (and for Clemons, more steroids). Practice is the ONLY way to prepare for eventualities but reality doesn't always work out like you want it.

I have great respect for the people that have the training and demeanor to stand against a heavily armed enemy and fight. My experiences in sports never had death as a probable outcome.

 

[JShirley]

If I'm not mistaken, the heroic sergeant-at-arms in the Canadian parliament situation did intentionally drop to the floor, and killed the terrorist from a supine position

I'm willing to bet he was not (1) rolling, and (2) shooting with a firearm in each hand. What's the bet?

 

[lemaymiami]

Amen..... using whatever weapon you have at hand effectively is all that counts - no matter how nice it would be if fantasies worked out.... Sometimes the best weapon isn't a firearm either - just depends on the circumstances...

By the way, after watching the video of the UK knife terrorist in the subway -finally taken down by a single Taser shot I was reminded of a co-worker many years ago that had worked for years as a correctional officer... He could do more with a simple chair against an opponent with a knife or other improvised weapon in an instant than three of us trying to figure out how to take the individual down without getting badly injured in the process...

Having the experience to do that sort of stuff probably comes with a box of bandaids while you're learning, I'm afraid... The point is there's more than one way to defend yourself or others armed or un-armed. Many times withdrawing (or at least improvising barricades to prevent an assault from reaching your position) is a valid strategy...

 

[AK103K]

The point is there's more than one way to defend yourself or others armed or un-armed. Many times withdrawing (or at least improvising barricades to prevent an assault from reaching your position) is a valid strategy...

Thats just it, every instance, usually has multiple possible solutions, and all may apply, and in just that one instance.

The point is to try to be as prepared as you can for ANY, or at least, as many of them that you reasonably can, instead of having just one plan in your head, to deal with everything. Running away is great, if youre in position to do so, if your right up front, its probably not going to be the best choice.

I would think that people who are accustomed to solving problems under stress and on the fly (and thats everything in daily life, not just something like this), will do much better than those who go into loop lock at every little thing, and stand there constantly resetting, while trying to figure it out.

Mike Tyson had a great, and quite pertinent quote... "Everybody's got a plan, until you punch them in the mouth".

 

[old lady new shooter]

Good thinking. Don't forget some low-light practice too.

I already figured out that I need tritium sights, I bought a set but haven't yet gotten to the gunsmith to have them installed. For lighting up the bad guy I have a separate solution.

 

[old lady new shooter]

I'm willing to bet he was not (1) rolling, and (2) shooting with a firearm in each hand. What's the bet?

I didn't assert either of those two conditions. AFAIK he was using one handgun, and I did not see anything about rolling. That was before I started really shooting (might have been after my initial class which was followed by a long hiatus before I finally went for my private lesson) but even so I was amazed at the idea of it. At the time I did not see any explanation for why he decided to do that, the only thing I can think of is that maybe by falling to the ground he was trying to fool the terrorist into thinking he was hit. (Imagine being able to think that fast and under those conditions! Or maybe he had thought about it before...) I do think people should at least practice dryfiring from a supine position, you might have to shoot from bed sometime.

 

[Jeff White]

I have seen people advocate taking a knee or even going prone in order to shoot at an upwards angle to avoid hitting bystanders.

Another reason to get low is that people are usually looking at eye level for targets, getting below or above eye level may reduce your chances of being targeted.

 

[stressed]

How do the gimmick rounds work on their own? That load sounds like it might act a lot like the old Glasser Safety Slug in soft tissue. Does it penetrate?

If and when it gets through the vest, whats it got left?

I thought those type rounds (or anything fired from a handgun that would pierce a vest) all fell under the armor piercing regs? Remember the PMC Ultramag's (flying donuts)? What about the Geco "BAT"/Blitz Action Trauma's (not sure about these though)? KTW's ? I guess those are all just collector's items any more.

You always see these type rounds pop up, but you never seem to see them hang on to long.

The solid copper base will continue to penetrate around 11" of gel. I imagine the ATF is unaware. Enough to pass through clay behind the armor.

 

[old lady new shooter]

I have seen people advocate taking a knee or even going prone in order to shoot at an upwards angle to avoid hitting bystanders.

Another reason to get low is that people are usually looking at eye level for targets, getting below or above eye level may reduce your chances of being targeted.

The second one makes a lot of sense, even I actually already thought of that. The first, I had to think about for a minute after reading... so the idea is, if you shoot straight on, even assuming you don't miss, the bullet could go through the bad guy and into an innocent bystander, but if you shoot from the floor the trajectory would be upward and if the bullet continued it could maybe lodge in the ceiling or something but at least not injure anyone else?

 

[Jeff White]

Well, no load that I know of reaches escape velocity, so what you just shot into the air is going to come down somewhere. People are killed every year by "celebratory" rounds fired into the air.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Well, no load that I know of reaches escape velocity, so what you just shot into the air is going to come down somewhere. People are killed every year by "celebratory" rounds fired into the air.

Yep, I don't step foot out of my house the night of July 4th or December 31st, my neighborhood is very multi-cultural and shooting into the air is apparently a part of several of the cultures. Every year there are public service announcements saying not to do it, but... <sigh>

But inside a building a bullet shot upward wouldn't lodge in the ceiling?

 

[Jeff White]

But inside a building a bullet shot upward wouldn't lodge in the ceiling?

That would depend on what the ceiling was made of. It would most likely go right through sheet rock, the roof decking (plywood or OSB in newer homes), shingles and who knows where it would land. Might get a ricochet from the steel beams in commercial buildings, but if it didn't hit that it would likely go through into the air. Might have better luck in a multi story commercial building especially if the floor for the story above was concrete.

 

[JShirley]

I didn't assert either of those two conditions

Okay, but you answered my rebuff of a ridiculous assertion with a real incident, so I rehashed the ridiculous parts that I was initially rebuffing.

I have been in classes where taking a knee for an upward brain shot was taught. I have been in classes where rollover prone was taught.

 

[Plan2Live]

JShirley posted;

Quote:
Once on the ground and the danger to innocent bystanders is minimized then I would take the head shot.

If you're suggesting taking a definite kill shot after the threat is no longer threatening, then you're leaving out the "- and go to jail" part.

Hmm, we were discussing employing the switch to pelvis shots if center mass shots appear to be ineffective drill and to my knowledge pelvis shots aren't generally fatal but are generally used to bring an alleged bad guy to the ground vs remaining in a standing position. My bad, I didn't add the phrase "if the person now on the ground still posed a threat" because to me that is elementary. Please let me amend that and add a footnote *See Massad Ayoob's definition of imminent peril and the justifiable use of deadly force.*

In retrospect, I also didn't mention if I still had ammunition, if my gun was still in working order, if the bad guy actually had a head, if I were still awake and oh probably about a thousand other details that one could presume to be elementary understanding of the use of deadly force. But thanks for pointing out my omission and allowing me to post a disclaimer.

 

[2ndunamended]

Plan2Live- you are on point since the OP scenario was a terrorist attack like the San Bernadino shooting. You're not going to have to defend yourself after such a situation as you would in a "standard" self defense scenario.