Body armor defeating 9mm?

[AK103K]

Why do people Think headshots require some mythical level of accuracy?

The size of a human head is roughly equal to the effective center of mass.......yet we have no problem teaching people to shoot COM.....

If you can shoot someone in the chest at SD ranges.....you should have no problem hitting them in the head. .....if you can't do that, you nees more training

I keep wondering the same thing, but as you see, those of us who advocate them, must have to be some sort of super shooters, something Ill readily admit, I am not.

I do practice regularly though, and feel it is an obligation on your part to do so, if you carry a gun.

 

[F-111 John]

Why do people Think headshots require some mythical level of accuracy?

The size of a human head is roughly equal to the effective center of mass.......yet we have no problem teaching people to shoot COM.....

If you can shoot someone in the chest at SD ranges.....you should have no problem hitting them in the head. .....if you can't do that, you nees more training

The difference is if you shoot COM and miss, you're most likely still going to hit something; arm, leg, neck, etc.

Miss the head and you're most likely to miss everything, unless you shot low.

 

[AK103K]

The difference is if you shoot COM and miss, you're most likely still going to hit something; arm, leg, neck, etc.

Miss the head and you're most likely to miss everything, unless you shot low.

Regardless of what youre shooting at, you dont stop shooting, until you get the desired result, do you not?

If I shoot three rounds at either, and connect with only one, which one do you suppose, will bring about a faster result?

And again, if there is even a thought of there being armor, and/or Im at a reasonably close range, why would I bother shooting COM?

 

[beeb173]

I want the "head shot advocates" to try sprinting a quarter mile to simulate adrenaline then have M 80 fireworks thrown at you to simulate the deafening disorientation. Then, draw your pistol and hit a moving 5" target in under 1.5 seconds while the M 80 thrower is throwing them at your face. There's a reason cops miss.

 

[Richard Head]

As if the bad guys are going to stand still and let you shoot them in the head. Some of you guys are delusional.

 

[AK103K]

So what you guys are saying is, your odds would be better, if you dont practice somewhat realistically?

There's a reason cops miss.

Yea, a lot of them only qualify a couple of times a year, and at qualifications, not to unlike your average CCW class. Ive personally seen that, and Ive seen a good number of cops shoot, and it wasnt real awe inspiring.

As if the bad guys are going to stand still and let you shoot them in the head. Some of you guys are delusional.

Am I to assume that you know this from actual practice? If you arent practicing regularly and realistically, whos delusional?

Look, if youre comfortable with your skills and weapons choice, great. Do what you feel best.

Just dont take it out on me, because I suggest you push yourself a little bit, and put a little effort into it (and a little effort is really all it takes). It is your responsibility as a gun carrier, is it not?

 

[Plan2Live]

If I shoot three rounds at either, and connect with only one, which one do you suppose, will bring about a faster result?

By "connect" I presume you are referring to the bad guy. And where did those other two rounds stop, in a wall or on the head/body of an innocent? What are you going to tell the deceased innocent bystander's family? Sorry folks I can usually make that shot? Or, hey look at the bright side, I took out the bad guy too?

 

[AK103K]

So once things start, and youre committed, what is your take on it? Stand there in a panic loop trying to decide what to do, or do something?

Ill ask the same thing of you with the last part of your post. You shoot them a couple of times COM, and they continue to shoot two or three more people immediately around them, because you couldnt get it done, what do you tell the families? Hey, I tried? I did my best?

Responsibility. Hell of a thing, aint it?

 

[ugaarguy]

Since this has, not surprisingly, turned into a discussion of Strategy, Tactics, and Training rather than equipment I've moved it to the proper forum

 

[MachIVshooter]

Body armor does not make bad guys terminators and, unless they're on something, they're not going to just stand there and take the hits. So, while putting them out of the fight for good becomes more difficult with armor, shooting back is still effective. As well, outside of hollywood, bad guys are not armored head to toe; at most, you'd see a level IV vest and helmet with level III face shield, maybe groin protection. Legs and arms are still exposed, and those hits still put people down. Any person who actually was bulletproof head to toe would weigh more than a medieval cavalry knight, a mobility vs. protection ratio that doesn't work for individual combatants.

In short, rather than trying to plan for the highly unlikely scenario of an armored active shooter by carrying a weapon that will defeat a little more armor than a typical carry gun (remember, level III still stops 5.7x28, even from a rifle), practice failure drills that target the next best thing after COM-the head and legs.

 

[Plan2Live]

Ill ask the same thing of you with the last part of your post. You shoot them a couple of times COM, and they continue to shoot two or three more people immediately around them, because you couldnt get it done, what do you tell the families? Hey, I tried? I did my best?

First of all, I am not a badged law enforcement officer. I primarily carry a pistol for self defense. I have no sworn duty to come to the aid of others, especially strangers. If the shooter is between me and the exit then I will engage. Otherwise, I will be looking for an exit and taking as many people with me through that exit as possible. The instructors I have trained with teach center mass followed by pelvis shots if the bad guy is still standing. Once on the ground and the danger to innocent bystanders is minimized then I would take the head shot. That's how I was trained, that's how I believe I will respond based on that training so no I won't be standing there deciding what to do. Don't forget, the last LA bank robber standing was brought down by a shot to the foot.

Second, the discussion is really academic and to be quite frank, armchair quarterbacking, because the chances of any of us actually having to draw our defensive weapons at all is pretty slim. The chances we would be armed and in the same location as an active shooter increases those odds even more. The chances we will be armed, in the vicinity of an active shooter and close enough to even attempt a shot are slimmer still. Add a body armor clad active shooter to the equation and well, I'd probably have better odds at getting Nicole Kidman to spend the weekend with me and Cameron Diaz. But it is fun to fantasize.

 

[AK103K]

I primarily carry a pistol for self defense. I have no sworn duty to come to the aid of others, especially strangers. If the shooter is between me and the exit then I will engage.

The whole point of the exercise here, has nothing to do with "others". Its dealing with someone with armor, and/or close range engagements.

Once on the ground and the danger to innocent bystanders is minimized then I would take the head shot.

I thought we werent worried about others here? Waiting to check on the well being of others, before you finish up, seems like your priorities are misdirected.

Personally, I wouldnt stop shooting until they were down "and" I was sure they out. No need to assess in between.

Just because they are down does not mean they are out either. I thought Miami showed that pretty well. The Hollywood thing, I believe the boy youre referring to, took around 20 hits in his legs/feet, which were the only real target they had at that point. He bled out later after giving up. If he handnt have given up, he would have still been very much a threat.

Second, the discussion is really academic and to be quite frank, armchair quarterbacking, because the chances of any of us actually having to draw our defensive weapons at all is pretty slim.

Really no point in even discussing anything then, is there?

 

[Plan2Live]

Really no point in even discussing anything then, is there?

If you don't understand the difference between stepping in to assist others and taking steps to make sure you don't harm others then no I guess not.

 

[AK103K]

I understand it full well. You were the one that said its not up to us to step in, and I thought that harming another, albeit, in a round about way, was the whole point here.

 

[M-Cameron]

As if the bad guys are going to stand still and let you shoot them in the head. Some of you guys are delusional.

but theyll stand there if im shooting them COM?....good to know!

I want the "head shot advocates" to try sprinting a quarter mile to simulate adrenaline then have M 80 fireworks thrown at you to simulate the deafening disorientation. Then, draw your pistol and hit a moving 5" target in under 1.5 seconds while the M 80 thrower is throwing them at your face. There's a reason cops miss.

ill gladly take that challenge....well, maybe not the M80s to the face.....but the rest of it ill gladly do if you want to set that up.

and of course im not going to hit every shot....there will be misses........but that is why i carry a G17 with 18 rounds of 9mm......so even if my accuracy is 30%(average for most LEO)......that is still 5 rounds on target.

 

[JohnKSa]

The size of a human head is roughly equal to the effective center of mass.......yet we have no problem teaching people to shoot COM.....

1. If you miss the head slightly you miss entirely. If you miss COM slightly you may still score a stopping hit--maybe even a lethal hit.

2. Head shots really need to be brain shots for maximum effectiveness. There's actually quite a lot of the head that can be injured severely without incapacitating the head's owner. The entire front of the head from the eyes down is non-essential. The better "practical" style targets show the "goal" area of the head as the size of the brain which is more realistic. The size of the brain is much smaller than the typical COM scoring area of a practical target.

3. A person's COM tends to be less mobile than a person's head and therefore easier to hit, even if we ignore the size difference issues.

4. Making hits in real-world scenarios is hard. We sometimes like to assume that a torso hit is a given if the aimpoint is COM. In reality, hit rates in real world gunfights are something like 1 shot out of 3. In other words, 2 out of 3 shots miss entirely. They don't just miss the COM target area, they miss the entire person.

 

[M-Cameron]

3. A person's COM tends to be less mobile than a person's head and therefore easier to hit, even if we ignore the size difference issues.

i dont buy this argument....sure Technically a head has the ability to be more 'mobile" than a torso......but honestly, how often does someone walk around flailing their head?.....90% of head movement leaves the head more or less in the same place.....

2. Head shots really need to be brain shots for maximum effectiveness. There's actually quite a lot of the head that can be injured severely without incapacitating the head's owner. The entire front of the head from the eyes down is non-essential. The better "practical" style targets show the "goal" area of the head as the size of the brain which is more realistic. The size of the brain is much smaller than the typical COM scoring area of a practical target.

eh, the only bit you can really do without is the Jaw..........looking from the front......you can shoot from the top of the head, down to the eyes and score an instant kill........bellow the eyes, if your shots are centered, you are going to hit the spine/ brain stem........and if you are off to either side, you are going to hit the carotid arteries.

from the side, sure, if you hit the jaw, they can still keep in the fight, but just about any other shot is going to be fatal.

 

[JohnKSa]

...how often does someone walk around flailing their head...

I didn't say people walk around flailing their heads. I said it is more mobile than their center of mass.

Think about it in terms of target area displacement.

Now, with this in mind, lean forward a little to look down at your hands, as you might to change magazines or clear a malfunction. Notice how little your COM moves as compared to your head.

Now turn your head to look over your shoulder, as you might do to check your six to verify there's no one coming up behind you. Notice that your center of mass hardly moved at all, but if you moved normally, there will be a slight lean of your head as you turn to look behind you which will displace the head's target area significantly.

...you can shoot from the top of the head, down to the eyes and score an instant kill........bellow the eyes, if your shots are centered

What I said was the "entire front of the head from the eyes down is non-essential." If you are shooting directly from the front and your shot is centered (and therefore penetrates to the back of the head) then yes, that would be instantly lethal.

If you have the stomach for it, you can do some search on failed shotgun suicides involving facial injuries. The photos are grisly but prove that it's possible to shoot away nearly everything below the eyes and still survive.


Remember, there's no reason to assume you'll be shooting directly from the front. That's why I made the point of being very specific in my comment.

 

[AK103K]

A little FoF fun would clear this all right up.

Remember, there's no reason to assume you'll be shooting directly from the front. That's why I made the point of being very specific in my comment.

This is one of the reasons practicing on photo type targets over bullseye, and basic shape targets helps with making you think about where youre trying to put your rounds.

 

[JohnKSa]

A little FoF fun would clear this all right up.

Probably true if you got a group of typical CCW holders together and took the results from the first runs of each person instead of having each of them run the scenario repeatedly and looking at the overall results.

This is one of the reasons practicing on photo type targets over bullseye, and basic shape targets helps with making you think about where youre trying to put your rounds.

Very true. Not to be too creepy, but looking at people as they move around while keeping their anatomy in mind is also very instructive. It's very easy to fall into the trap of thinking of bad guys as 2 dimensional targets. That's a very misleading way to think.

 

[Jenrick]

One thing about the head we don't give it credit for, it protects the brain remarkably well. There are plenty of real world stories of folks being shot with full power rifle cartridges in WW2, surviving, and on occasion continuing to fight. Lt (at the time Ofc) Jared Reston took a .45 ACP round to the jaw (along with another 6 or 7 roudns) from about 20' away and won his gun fight and went back to work (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArDRg5SkuT0). I've variously seen people shot in most areas of the head, and unless it was in the area from about the nose up AND it penetrated that skull, most had a survivable non-incapacitating injury.

Also regarding FoF, the first thing someone does once marking rounds start flying is bob and weave, which causes the head to move around dramatically. CoM also starts moving all over the place too. It takes a lot of stress inoculation to stand tall, when sim rounds start flying.

 

[AK103K]

Probably true if you got a group of typical CCW holders together and took the results from the first runs of each person instead of having each of them run the scenario repeatedly and looking at the overall results.

Agreed, but it would also show what someone with a little practice can do, and do so on demand.

I understand, from what some of you are saying, that the majority of CCW carriers may be inept, but it doesnt have to, and most certainly shouldnt, be that way, but perhaps it is what it is. Constantly telling us that though, that "you cant do that", simply because they cant or wont, isnt helping anything, or anyone.

Im simply saying, with a little regular and realistic practice, making those shots is not hard at all. And Im not talking about standing still, and taking my time in squeezing them off in doing so. Some shooting is really a bit more athletic, than many seem to think.

 

[DMK]

7.62x25 seems to do pretty well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_3_DBeU_HI

I wonder of 357 Magnum could be loaded to similar performance.

 

[dbmjr1]

Quite a bit of the old .30 Mauser surplus ammo was AP. It has a steel pin inside the bullet. The real purpose wasn't to defeat armor that had not yet been invented. The reason was because steel was cheaper than lead, and was used as a filler. What level armor it would penetrate is above my pay grade.

Another point: People talk about shooting under stress. I've shot under stress. Some of the best shooting I've ever done. Time slows down. Eye sight gets better. Hearing get's better. Everything works like it's trained to do.
To compare it to shooting after having run any distance is not valid. Of course, that's just my personal experience. I have no idea how others might react.

As for difficulty making the head shot: I shoot steel plates. Eight inch steel plates, six in a rack, at twenty five yards. I'm pretty fair, and can knock down all six with a revolver pretty quickly. I still miss. Plenty. Let's assume that the average head is about the same size. 75 feet seems like a long distance to be engaging a real life target with a hand gun, unless they have a rifle. Then it seems realistic. Now consider, that even I miss those plates on occasion, and they're sitting perfectly still, waiting for me to knock it down. I'm standing in a perfect shooting position, concentrating on the perfect grip, thinking about that trigger break and concentrating on that front sight. In a real world shooter situation I'll be concentrating on sight alignment, thinking of that trigger break, but I'll likely be hiding behind some cover, or at least some concealment. Real cover from a rifle is not easy to come by in a conference room. Point is, I'll be shooting COM. I'm not up to speed on body armor, but I'd imagine that getting triple tapped in the chest with a 9x19 +P is going to hurt, even with armor.

So if I hit the bad guy thee or four times in the chest, stun him momentarily, get his attention, and he aims, fires and kills me. Just maybe, I slowed him down enough for two or three other victims to escape. I'll take that trade, rather than dying like a sheep at the slaughter.

Also: If I'm armed and people are getting shot around me, I'd pray that the courage to defend the innocent would find me. I would hope I would not run, to allow others to be slaughtered. I don't think I could live with myself if I did. There's a word for that attitude. I hope that word never applies to me. Some things are worse than death.

 

[JohnKSa]

Constantly telling us that though, that "you cant do that", simply because they cant or wont, isnt helping anything, or anyone.

I wouldn't say that it can't be done. I would say, and the statistics bear it out, that it's not simple to do and the odds are against it.

Im simply saying, with a little regular and realistic practice, making those shots is not hard at all. And Im not talking about standing still, and taking my time in squeezing them off in doing so.

This gets to the crux of the matter, but only partially so.

You clearly believe you have a considerable amount of experience shooting on the move and further believe that you have acquired an unusual (statistically speaking) level of skill in this regard. A person with that level of experience AND who has become competent at that skill will have a much different chance of making headshots in a gunfight situation than someone who has never done anything other than shoot at a static target from a static standing position.

However, that doesn't change the advice that one should give. Specifically that trying to take headshots in a gunfight is inadvisable. Why? Because anyone who really does have the skill to take headshots in a gunfight won't be asking for advice on whether to do so or not.

The only remaining issue is the people who think they have the skill to do so but don't. The goal there is to provide enough education for them to help them understand better what their skill level is.

...with a little regular and realistic practice...

Two problems there. "A little practice" has different meanings to different people. I know people who have bought a gun, shot it at the range on one occasion and never fired it again. They would tell you that's "a little practice" and that shooting once a year is "a little regular practice". Shooters like you would likely believe that wasn't practice at all and that visiting the range multiple times a week is "a little regular practice".

As for "realistic practice", it's something that the vast majority of gun owners don't even know how to define. Common range rules restrict "practice" to standing still and shooting slowly at a static paper target and based on what I see at the range, there are precious few that are any good at that. Telling someone with that kind of "practice" experience that "making <head> shots is not hard at all" in a gunfight isn't helpful, in my opinion.

Is making headshots in a gunfight hard? It's not as hard if you shoot several thousand rounds a year and get to the range several times a month to practice shooting on the move and on a timer, but it's still considerably harder than getting hits while aiming COM.