Some say a .380 isn;t enough

[RinkRat]

My mommy always said not to run with scissors she also said be careful with that BB Gun or you’ll put somebody’s eye out My son tricked out his spring powered airsoft .45acp replica and shot a raven bird at about 28ft and it fell over and didn’t get up Our dog immediately scooped it up and ran off with it

 

[GLOOB]

I remember trying to shoot a raven with a Crossman BB rifle, as a kid. They hit about as hard as water off a duck's back. One time, I swear the bird took 3 or 4 hits, unconcerned, before flying off.

OTOH, I made a shot on a robin once, from about the better part of 100 yards. Each of my brothers had taken a shot, and were so far off the bird didn't even notice. I laid down supine, with the gun propped on one knee. I used a good inch or two of hold over, guessing about 3 or 4 feet of drop at distance, using iron sights. Brothers were deriding the futility of the effort, the whole time. Downed the thing, first shot. That was the last time I shot at a bird, though. Didn't see the point of it after that one. My legend was made.

 

[Mayo]

Have you ever shot an R9 or any other of the micro 9mm's???

These tiny pistols are absolutely brutal to shoot and follow-up shots are a joke.

Just because it's tiny and insanely priced that doesn't make it the ideal pistol.


Did you know that the R9 comes with an extra recoil spring because it's recommended you change the recoil spring every 100-200 rounds?

http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/rohrbaugh/basefile/recoil-assy.htm


Personally I'd rather have the P3AT and spend that extra money on ammo practicing shooting it accurately.

No amount of money spent on fancy high dollar pistols is going to make up for a lack of control and the ability to rapidly put your shots on target.

Have you ever shot an R9 or any other of the micro 9mm's???

These tiny pistols are absolutely brutal to shoot and follow-up shots are a joke.

Just because it's tiny and insanely priced that doesn't make it the ideal pistol.


Did you know that the R9 comes with an extra recoil spring because it's recommended you change the recoil spring every 100-200 rounds?

http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/roh...ecoil-assy.htm


Personally I'd rather have the P3AT and spend that extra money on ammo practicing shooting it accurately.

No amount of money spent on fancy high dollar pistols is going to make up for a lack of control and the ability to rapidly put your shots on target.

Of course---there is virtually no difference between the P3at and R9--sounds like YOU have never shot an R9. A $5 replacement spring is your concern? How much is .380 ammo vs 9mm? The difference in quality of the 2 is laughable--and when it comes to pocket carrying a bug---when the time comes I'll take the 9mm at close range any day.

 

[shootingthebreeze]

David E Message 100... based on the proper selection of ammunition.
That's what I have been trying to explain all along.

Cor Bon 90 Grain Jacketed Hollow Points or Hornady hollow point or any good quality round which will expand the same all the time without fragmenting. If you are going to use a .380 then ammunition selection is critical.

 

[Weevil]

Of course---there is virtually no difference between the P3at and R9--sounds like YOU have never shot an R9. A $5 replacement spring is your concern? How much is .380 ammo vs 9mm? The difference in quality of the 2 is laughable--and when it comes to pocket carrying a bug---when the time comes I'll take the 9mm at close range any day.

BULL!

No I haven't shot an R9 and I seriously doubt you have either, but I have shot several small nines and I have read the reports of those who have actually shot an R9 and they all state that the R9 has a very stout recoil much more than a similiar sized .380.

There is no way a 9mm is going to have the same recoil as a .380 of the same size.


The point of the recoil spring is that the R9 is too small for the 9mm and will batter itself to pieces unless a fresh spring is put in at very short intervals.

Now why do you suppose the P3AT doesn't require constant spring changes???

It's obviously a lower quality pistol than the R9 but yet it doesn't wear out the recoil spring after 100 rounds.

Now that recoil from the 9mm that's wearing out those springs in short order and will batter that little pistol to pieces is going to be transfered to your hand, and you're gonna sit there and claim that it has the same felt-recoil as a P3AT???

I repeat BULL!

 

[Mayo]

Shoot an R9 and then get back to me. R9 is no range gun--and neither is a P3at. Maybe a slight bit of difference in recoil---but not near enough to justify a .380 over a 9mm---AGAIN, if you can afford 1.

Recoil springs need to be replaced on all guns--it doesn't stop working or malfunction or even break if you exceed the interval. You simply replace the spring when you clean the gun. Better the spring take the abuse then a frame. Either try them both before you make a decision or if you can't do that then simply ask the many people on this site who have and they will tell you.

 

[hiker44]

Just remember what the gun was designed to do. It's more a "get the heck away from me" gun than a target shooter. Considering the situation originally described and the probable skill of the user, I'd say it filled the bill...that time. I prefer more punch, especially at home in my bedroom. A 12 gauge with number one shot or a .357 with hollow points would serve me better, but the cop obviously did what he could where he was with what he had.

 

[OldCavSoldier]

I have two .380ACP's: One Walther PPK and one Colt Government Model .380......both shoot very well, easy to conceal and are great as a #3 backup gun. Of course, like the old guys say: A .25 in your pocket beats a .45 in your truck.

 

[Pyro]

I carry a .25 as a primary and feel perfectly safe.

 

[psyshack]

.380 is bug only for me.

 

[benzy2]

My problem is, that on most days, I don't carry at all and I don't worry about it. It seems so many that come into a discussion like this see carrying as a requirement, and then the rules are that you shoot the biggest hand cannon you can hide. That isn't me and it isn't what I want.

I have yet to feel undergunned with a .380. May not be the most ideal chambering in the history of the world, but with the ammo available today, I feel confident that it will stop any issues I may ask of it. As has been stated over and over, the two issues are penetration and shot placement. I personally shoot the LCP very well. Don't know why, but slow fire groups are into two inches at 10 yards and rapid fire opens up to about 6". I won't say that is how I would shoot if the time comes, but it seems well enough. And even then, an expanded .380 is about .5". An expanded .45 is about .75". A miss with the .380 is probably a miss with the .45 (or whatever round you want to compare to).

Then comes penetration. I'm not using this to shoot through barriers. To me, I see my real threat as a close and personal confrontation. At the distances I see a threat happening, the .380 has been shown to perform to a consensus well enough. For me, I see shot placement with the LCP as satisfactory and penetration as satisfactory. If you fear other threats, or other situations, it may not qualify. For my personal requirements, I feel protected. I wouldn't hold it against anyone for wanting a different caliber, bigger or smaller. Realize that before a mass generalization is made about what is and what isn't capable, that not everyone holds the same requirements for both the pistol and the chambering.

 

[NidStyles]

What an annoying argument. If a BG can be put down with a particular round, from a particular firearm that you can effectively use when it comes to a high stress situation, then carry it.

An endless argument over what is better is nothing more than an exercise in futility. That's like me going around telling people they can't buy firearm's in the first place, because they are sometimes used in criminal activity. The market has option's for a reason, because not one single firearm fits all need's. Vote with your money, and learn that arguing over caliber is pointless. Any caliber can put a person down, if the person firing can aim it sufficiently. Buy what you like, and practice with it.

That's all it comes down to.

I carry .380 at all times. If I'm in bed it's on the nightstand. If I'm in the shower it's on the sink. The .40 sits under my desk, and if something were to happen, like social unrest or rioting, it would come out. I have practiced enough with the .380 so that I can carry it confidently. Just like the Army always told me, it's always a training issue when shooting.

 

[mljdeckard]

If the .25 (or .380) in your pocket beats the .45 in your truck......you dropped the ball when you put the little gun in your pocket and left the big one in the truck.

No, a .380 isn't enough. Neither is a .45. I think it's a bad idea to select a minimal version of an inferior tool. It's like saying; "Jumping out of a plane is dangerous to begin with, so it doesn't matter if I don't use the best parachute I can."

Having said that, yes, current ammo offerings make a .380 a lot better than it used to be. But when people are really concerned with size, there are sub-compact offerings in 9mm, .40, .357 Sig, .45, and 10mm. I don't see the justification. I'm about to get my mother a Walther PK 380, but it's because she needs a lighter slide rack due to a wrist injury, not because she is too frail to shoot something bigger.

 

[haslethandgunner]

When it's 100 degrees in Texas, concealing my lcp is much easier then my pt1911! And as some have said, having any pistol with you all the time is better then carrying some of the time!

Ya'll are much more thoughtful about this stuff, but in the winter I feel a .45acp will do the job regardless of the clothing, size etc. of the attacker. In summer, chances are the attacker will be wearing no more then a t-shirt and shorts, so a .380 may not blow him back 20ft, but 7 little holes will give him pause long enough for me to get myself and my family to safety.

 

[mljdeckard]

Zero sympathy. I carry a full-size 1911 year-round, including 100+ degree summers.

You are assuming you will get seven shots. I would feel lucky to get ONE. I want it to count.

The effectiveness of any round doesn't change with the seasons. If it isn't good enough for winter, how can you be sure that SUMMER won't invent a problem for it as well?

 

[harmon rabb]

He knew how to shoot. Where you hit is more important than what you hit with.

 

[CZguy]

Zero sympathy. I carry a full-size 1911 year-round, including 100+ degree summers.

The only problem with that line of thinking is that there's no end. For example. I don't feel comfortable with any pistol caliber, so I carry a .12 ga pump.

It's a little bulky though, so I settle for my .44 mag.

At some point we all have to realize that what you carry is a personal choice. It's a balance of what you can shoot well and still conceal.

If someone tells me they carry a .25 or a .45, I don't bat an eye. Now if they ask my opinion that's a whole different thing.

 

[easyg]

When it's 100 degrees in Texas, concealing my lcp is much easier then my pt1911! And as some have said, having any pistol with you all the time is better then carrying some of the time!

This is same old lame "either, or" argument....

It's too hot for me to carry my 1911 so I MUST carry my peashooter.

You might not know this, but there are other guns readily available that are smaller and lighter than a 1911, yet still much more effective than a LCP.

 

[CZguy]

You might not know this, but there are other guns readily available that are smaller and lighter than a 1911, yet still much more effective than a LCP.

Of course they are. To numerous to name, and I happen to carry one. But my point is that what someone carries is a personal choice. If they are content to carry a .25 or a pocket knife it's up to them. At least that's my opinion.

Even if you aren't comfortable carrying an LCP, would it be alright if other people did?

 

[easyg]

If they are content to carry a .25 or a pocket knife it's up to them. At least that's my opinion.

Even if you aren't comfortable carrying an LCP, would it be alright if other people did?

It's not like I'm running around confiscating everyone's LCP's and "peashooters".

But I can't participate in a handgun forum and, in good conscience, tell folks that their .380 is fine for self defense when I really think otherwise.
That's the same as lying to the person.

 

[haslethandgunner]

This is same old lame "either, or" argument....

It's too hot for me to carry my 1911 so I MUST carry my peashooter.

You might not know this, but there are other guns readily available that are smaller and lighter than a 1911, yet still much more effective than a LCP.

I'm not sure where the argument is; if I'm wearing light shorts and a t-shirt to go jogging, fishing etc. it's impractical to pack a ss 1911, and since .45 of even the 3" variety don't fit in a pocket so you go with what caliber will fit the situation.

Will a .45 make a bigger hole then a .380? Of course, but the object is to defend yourself from a would be assailant. Isn't it? If you can't effectively hit the purp with the weapon of choice, the solution is to practice more and worry about the size less.

 

[Mayo]

All I'm saying is that in todays market there is a negligble difference(sometimes none) between the .380's and 9mm. I'll give you that if you can't shoot a 9mm as good as a .380 then carry the .380----I don't know why you couldn't, but OK. Other then that, if you can afford it and if you can shoot it and conceal it as well---then why would you choose a .380 over a 9mm? Doesn't make any sense. Since some like to say shot placement---then if your shot placement is the same, which caliber do you choose? And finally for a good portion of shooters out there that say "I feel comfortable and well armed in my .380"-----let me ask you a question-----then why do you have a different caliber for anything but BUG? Use a .380 for EVERY scenario!

 

[easyg]

I'm not sure where the argument is; if I'm wearing light shorts and a t-shirt to go jogging, fishing etc. it's impractical to pack a ss 1911, and since .45 of even the 3" variety don't fit in a pocket so you go with what caliber will fit the situation.

No, you don't select which "caliber" you think fits a situation....you just carry a smaller handgun, but still one in a caliber than is more effective than the .380.

Per your example (shorts and T-shirt to go jogging) perhaps a belly-band or a fanny-pack with a Glock 26 instead of the 1911.

And if you're going fishing then you can always put your 1911 in your tackle-box.

There just no good reason to go with a weak caliber unless that's all you are capable of shooting.

 

[Ruark]

This discussion reminds me of a semi-joke I sometimes tell people when they laugh at me for tossing my 5" 9-shot .22LR revolver into the glove compartment when I'm going on a Sunday afternoon drive. I've had the gun about 25 years, fired tens of thousands of rounds through it.

"OK, I'll make you a deal. I'll put $50,000,000 on my dining table, and stand in front of it with my worthless little .22 revolver. You come through the front door there about 25 feet away. If you can touch the money, you can have it. Deal?"

Nobody's taken me up on it yet, including a couple of tough-talking SWAT cops in a gun shop. They thought it was hilarious.

 

[Fastcast]

Lets recap again for those who believe their 9mm is some secret squirrel .50 cal and pistols chambered in .380 although unbeknownst to most, actually shoot spit wads & peas.

"Sandoval shot and killed three of the men with a .380-caliber pistol and scared the fourth away."

Can't imagine anyone scared of a pea...lol