Somebody threatened to kill me at a restaurant

[ghostofmadison]

Okay, let me set the stage....this happened yesterday afternoon. I should mention at the outset that I am almost always armed when I go out, with a subcompact Glock 9mm (10+1 JHP 147 grain), inside the waist band and at the hip around 3:30. It conceals very easily with a t-shirt, which is what I was wearing. I was armed on this occasion.

My girlfriend and I were driving around in a rough part of a major city because she had to go to some specialty store for her profession, and we wanted to go by this great restaurant we know that happens to be in that rough area. Well, we got her stuff done and our restaurant was closed (should have called ahead) so we went towards the freeway to go to Ikea because we need some new furniture. Well, my car broke down right as we were going to get on the freeway so we pulled into a restaurant parking lot that was right near the on-ramp to the freeway. Seems like the beginning to a bad movie....

The restaurant was in the same rough area we were in before but the crowd wasn't that bad inside, mostly elderly people or people stopping to grab a bite to eat while driving on the freeway. We went inside and I called for a truck to come. Before the tow truck came I went out to get everything ready and I noticed a transient walking towards the restaurant. I didn't think much of it, just kind of stayed clear of his path. Girlfriend was with me the whole time.

I went back inside with girlfriend, and we started to order food. It's kind of a buffet style place, and I noticed the homeless guy was ahead of us by a few people in line. I wondered how he was going to pay for his food.

When his time to pay came up, he just took his tray and sat down at a table. A lady waitress asked him to pay and he said no, or something along those lines. She took his food from him and asked him to please leave. He was visibly agitated at this point, and stood and argued with her for about 30 seconds. As he slowly made his way to the door, surrounded at this point by about 3 women who worked there, he shook his finger at everyone individually in the area (including me) and said "I will kill you!" He also said something earlier about being the president of the United States.

I was surprisingly calm throughout the whole episode, mainly I guess because I've lived in cities a long time, and have had my share of run-ins with crazies (including being robbed at gunpoint once upon a time). I never seriously considered drawing in this situation, just because there were too many people around and the situation did not call for it. I was worried he might grab a knife however, in which case I planned on maneuvering for a better shot. Also, if he started wailing on any of the waitresses I was perfectly ready to fist fight him (I'm pretty sure I would have won).

The guy left, the waitresses were all pretty shaken and talked about it for a long time. For some reason I wasn't even phased...the girlfriend was very scared though and I had to calm her for a bit while we ate. She was really nervous waiting for the tow truck to come, afraid the guy would come back with a gun or something. I told her that's why we sat near an emergency exit . When the tow guy came I was very cautious, looking around to see if the guy was anywhere near.

The restuarant was quite crowded when we were there, although not full capacity since it was around 3 in the afternoon. Thoughts on what happened, how I could have handled it better? I don't think anyone called the police, and I didn't really consider it.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Sounds like you did OK.
There's not much to death threats like that but you never know and should be on your guard.


All death threats aren't just hot air, even though people might think they are.

A man threatened to kill my Wife. The Sheriff said the guy wouldn't do anything.
I wasn't taking a chance, so started looking for him.
Before I could find him he killed his unarmed neighbor in front of the man's wife.


If someone says they are going to kill you, don't give them the chance.

 

[Norinco982lover]

Sounds like you survived a "crazy." As long as you were ready to defend yourself and your girlfriend then you did great!

~Norinco

 

[Norinco982lover]

Just remembered a run in I had a few years back with an odd "crazy." I worked on a law crew at that time and myself and another guy were grabbing our trimmers out of the back of the truck when this short dude walks up. He is fiddling with this 20 oz water bottle the whole time and he is begging us for gas because his car ran out on the highway. He started yelling about how we had a ton of gas (for our mowers) and we should give him some. We told him that we needed it and couldn't give him a gas can but my friend was nice enough to offer to fill his 20 oz bottle with gas The guy glared at us and stomped off down the road...

The dude was crazy. We were standing very close to him and were about double his size so I wasn't scared but still...unnerving

~Norinco

 

[rainbowbob]

It sounds like you did all the right things.

The restaurant employees should have called the police, however. He attempted a theft, and made death threats. It sounds pretty clear that he was suffering from a serious mental illness. The police would have had the grounds to transport him to a psych hospital for observation, subsequent commitment, and treatment. They'd have been doing him a favor.

 

[eatont9999]

Not much you can do if someone is yelling. Not really a justification to shoot. I think you did fine. I see people like this all the time. Just keep an eye on them. You should be alert any time you are carrying, so you should spot them quickly and stay away if you can.

 

[hso]

the situation did not call for it.

Enough said right there.

 

[Six]

She took his food from him and asked him to please leave. He was visibly agitated at this point, and stood and argued with her for about 30 seconds. As he slowly made his way to the door, surrounded at this point by about 3 women who worked there...

I tend to think this falls under the kinds of things that the police are paid to do.

The manager should've asked him to leave, then called the police.

Waitresses should not be expected to double as bouncers.

 

[avdrummerboy]

It is like the people who walk around fast food places and gas stations who beg for "just a few bucks" for their starving kids, gas money, etc. Just watch them. We have them all over up here and there is not a whole lot police can do anyway b/c by the time they get there the person has already moved down the street.

I always watch them because you never do know when they go from annoyance to robbery.

 

[leadcounsel]

Considering $5 could have avoided the whole confrontation and possible assault, battery, and death of someone, etc... maybe the wise thing to do would have been just to look like the good guy and offer to pay for his meal? Maybe even make someones' day and restore his faith in humanity... and look cool in front of your girlfriend.

 

[eatont9999]

Pay for his meal? Would you really want to keep someone like that around for longer. Any way, I have done that. As soon as you do, they become your best friend and won't go away. They keep trying to get you to buy them more or give them a ride or money. Best bet was for the waitress to call the police. They would probably have been there 10-20 minutes later.

 

[kingpin008]

The last time my friend gave a beggar "just a couple bucks" the guy hit him hard enough to fracture his jaw and ran off with his wallet.

It's actually pretty common - they ask for a buck or two, and when you whip out the billfold, they take the opportunity to snatch it and run.

I'd much rather be the stick in the mud and uncool in front of my fiancee than encourage that sort of behavior and maybe put myself at risk, if it's all the same to ya.

 

[leadcounsel]

I'm not being naive. I certainly never pull my wallet on the street when some beggar begs for a dollar.

But in a restaurant, under these circumstances, you're paying for yours anyway, a simple, "Just put his on our tab" would have been the smooth, cool and very inexpensive alternative to a scene which could easily have resulted in a stabbing or shooting...

I rarely give to a beggar, and discourage the practice of giving to beggars because yes it is generally unsafe and encourages the practice, but this guy wasn't exactly begging and the food was going to go to waste. It was going to sustenance, not drugs, booze or whatnot...

Just tell him you're interested in dining alone with your girlfriend.

 

[KenWP]

Where in that did he threaten you at all. He was mad at the resturant people you had nothing to do with it and if you had of got involved you would have just made it worse. Just because your armed dosn't mean your supposed to protect the world.

 

[kingpin008]

Ken:

As he slowly made his way to the door, surrounded at this point by about 3 women who worked there, he shook his finger at everyone individually in the area (including me) and said "I will kill you!"

That's a threat.

Just because your armed dosn't mean your supposed to protect the world.

Where do you get that, reading the OP's post? When I read it, I noticed this section:

I never seriously considered drawing in this situation, just because there were too many people around and the situation did not call for it.

Which seems to indicate that the OP knows full well that "just because he's armed doesn't mean he's supposed to protect the whole world".

 

[lebowski]

Pay for his meal? Would you really want to keep someone like that around for longer. Any way, I have done that. As soon as you do, they become your best friend and won't go away.

+1

Sounds to me like a "no good deed goes unpunished" situation. Paying for the meal just keeps the nutcase around for longer, and he's likely to latch on to you asking/begging for more.

I don't give money to beggars on the street, and I certainly wouldn't give any to a beggar who came into a restaurant and expected to eat for free. If you want to do a good deed, volunteer at a shelter or give money to charity.

 

[kingpin008]

Exactly. If someone is unstable or entitled enough to just fix themselves a plate like that at a restaurant and then refuse to pay, I don't want to endulge the guy and let him finish his meal - I want him pounding pavement as soon as possible.

And I can't imagine that the proprietors of the establishment would have been too happy with it either - if he's homeless, chances are he's not going to be a return customer. That means that he won't be back. However, the longer he stays, the more he's likely to disturb the actual paying customers, who most certainly won't be returning.

No, this is one case where being a nice guy is definitely not my problem.

 

[61chalk]

KenWP...I read the OP saying "he shook his finger at everyone saying I'm going to kill you, (including me)." I would take that as a threat.

 

[canislupus]

I don't see Luby's here

To set the tone for my reaction, I'll just say this wasn't Luby's all over again.

I wasn't there so I don't know how agitated the dude was. But I've got to consider leadcounsel's suggestion in the mix about just plunking down the 5 bucks - end of problem, you're a hero, and nobody hurt (I personally witnessed a very similar situation; amazing what a purchased meal will do). btw, as someone else suggested, I agree that the manager, if there was one on duty, should have taken the lead, decided whether to usher the guy to the door, and called the cops or directed they be called. But that's irrelevant; absent the manager, the situation is what it is. In any case, anyone could have called the cops, including yourself.

Sounds like the non-paying patron was possibly unbalanced and at the least, hungry. I think it was a good idea to pay attention to the situation and be wary, but to be candid I'm troubled by the thinking behind this thread. I agree with those who said ghostofmadison handled it about right. In the end, that's true, and I credit him for that. But I'm troubled by what might have been.

"I never seriously considered drawing in this situation, just because there were too many people around and the situation did not call for it." Well, then, however:

"I was worried he might grab a knife however, in which case I planned on maneuvering for a better shot." Pardon my cynicism, but was it worried, or hoping?

Notwithstanding I'm having problems with the ambiguity there - which was it?, unless this guy pulls a gun, why even consider a lethal response? In a crowded or semi-crowded restaurant? If the dude pulls a knife (although apparently no indication he had one), it seems to me a couple of husky male patrons armed with chairs could bonk the guy and hold him at bay, and him pinned to the floor long enough for cops to arrive. After all, according to ghostofmadison.... "if he started wailing on any of the waitresses I was perfectly ready to fist fight him (I'm pretty sure I would have won)." If so, why shoot him? Unless he's shooting or is in position with some other potentially lethal instrument.

Like I said, I gree with others - you handled it right. It's that you consciously entertained the idea of elevating the situation to a lethal one when the situation didn't call for it. If you had shot him, be prepared for assault or homocide charges, not to mention if you had shot and injured or killed an innocent bystander. The possible human loss and potential criminal and civil liability aren't warranted based on what was described, in my opinion.

 

[kingpin008]

unless this guy pulls a gun, why even consider a lethal response?

Because lethal threats come in all shapes and sizes, and don't have to include a weapon other than the human body.

If the dude pulls a knife (although apparently no indication he had one), it seems to me a couple of husky male patrons armed with chairs could bonk the guy and hold him at bay, and him pinned to the floor long enough for cops to arrive.

Let me just say, I qualify as "husky", and I'm not really all that interested in trying to tackle a loony-tune wielding a blade. Knife-fights are not something one really wants to involve themselves in.

And just out of curiosity, what sort of "indication" would one expect to see, if an individual was carrying a knife - or any other weapon for that matter? Thousands of people carry concealed weapons on their person every day, with no external "indication" that they're doing so. Just because someone looks like they're unarmed doesn't mean that they are unarmed.

If so, why shoot him? Unless he's shooting or is in position with some other potentially lethal instrument.

Fists are lethal instruments. One powerful, well-placed punch can and has killed. As with the man-with-a-knife scenario, I'm not willing to put myself within range of things that can very easily injure or kill me. One of the reasons people employ firearms as a means of protection is becuase it allows for one to protect themselves while maintaining a reasonable distance from the threat.

It's that you consciously entertained the idea of elevating the situation to a lethal one when the situation didn't call for it.

He considered it, and then decided against it because it wasn't necessary. That's pretty much a textbook example of things called "situational awareness" and "threat asessment". Every CCW holder will likely have to do the same at least once in their life while carrying.

 

[KenWP]

I can not see the threat there. We are not that important that when somebody says something like that they include us. I feel he should have just taken the entertainment value of the situation and gone from there.

 

[kingpin008]

We are not that important that when somebody says something like that they include us.

What does "importance" have to do with anything? You don't have to be "important" to have your life threatened.

And I'm sorry, but if I'm in a group of people and some nutball points towards us and says "I'M GOING TO KILL YOU!" guess what - he's included me in that threat.

I feel he should have just taken the entertainment value of the situation and gone from there.

What's entertaining about an unstable vagrant causing a scene in a restaurant?

 

[mbt2001]

Not to sound like a jerk, but instead of kicking the dude out, someone could have bought him his food. Crazy or not, people have to eat.

 

[Bailey Boat]

There was this guy behind me in line at Wal Mart once and............

 

[kingpin008]

Not to sound like a jerk, but instead of kicking the dude out, someone could have bought him his food. Crazy or not, people have to eat.

If he's hungry, he can go to a shelter and get a meal.

Or,

He can approach the restaurant manager or a patron and ask (in a reasonable tone of voice) for a meal.

If he had approached me while I was eating at this place and explained to me that he was hungry and really, really needed something to eat, of course I would have bought him a meal. No problem.

But when someone comes in, ignores the rules of an establishment, and then proceeds to cause a scene and threaten those around him, he's gotta go. I don't care whether or not buying his food would have calmed him down or not at that point - by doing so, you're essentially telling him that his behavior was acceptable and effective. Do you really want to reinforce that kind of behavior in someone who could very well be seriously mentally ill?