What would you do in a situation like this?
- Thread starter Kenneth Lew
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kengrubb
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Pancakes in the Waffle House? Where is everyone's situational awareness? Sheesh!!!
Lupinus
Member
Maybe not at a waffle house but we have a similer situation wit hneighbors
Boyfriend is a thug wannabe, girlfriend (not saying in the slightist she deserves it) is one of those stupid women who like to goad a violent guy into hitting them. I belive the last fight was "WHAT N&%#&^%( YOU GOT A GLOCK IN YOUR POCKET AND ARE TO MUCH OF *BEEP* TO *BEEPING* SHOOT ME YOU PUNK AS *BEEP*" So yeah, we have the cops her reguarly cause she likes to goad him and he has heavy hands. No shootings as of yet.
Basically keep ears and eyes open and it gets real bad call the police. Short of him starting to kill her or shooting up the neighborhood or some such my envolvment ends at the phone and calling the police.
Same basic thing in waffle house scenerio presented. Find cover/escape, call police, keep eyes and ears open, and short of him actually coming back and taking aim at the girl or someone else it aint my job to pull a gun and shoot him.
Boyfriend is a thug wannabe, girlfriend (not saying in the slightist she deserves it) is one of those stupid women who like to goad a violent guy into hitting them. I belive the last fight was "WHAT N&%#&^%( YOU GOT A GLOCK IN YOUR POCKET AND ARE TO MUCH OF *BEEP* TO *BEEPING* SHOOT ME YOU PUNK AS *BEEP*" So yeah, we have the cops her reguarly cause she likes to goad him and he has heavy hands. No shootings as of yet.
Basically keep ears and eyes open and it gets real bad call the police. Short of him starting to kill her or shooting up the neighborhood or some such my envolvment ends at the phone and calling the police.
Same basic thing in waffle house scenerio presented. Find cover/escape, call police, keep eyes and ears open, and short of him actually coming back and taking aim at the girl or someone else it aint my job to pull a gun and shoot him.
Lupinus
Member
I like them well done smother covered and capped
My girlfriend thinks that constitutes deadly force that night if I so much as think of throwing the covers over her head
jsdavenport
Member
LMAO!
Kenneth Lew
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Ok,
The Waffle House is situation along the border of a two cities. One with a police department that actually does something and one from a major city that would usually show up LONG after a robbery or murder has happened (don't want to get into that). A police officer that was actually going to eat at the Waffle House pulled into the parking lot spooking the group when the fifty-cent wannabe produced a pistol griped shotgun from the back of a Toyota sedan. The group of people jumped into several vehicles and left the scene. The way the other groupees covered around the shotgun welding person, the police officer did not see the incident. When he walked into the restaurant, the waitress told him what happened and he proceeded to look for the group. He was from the smaller department. The larger department that the 911 operator relayed the message to took around an hour to show up. The police officer from the smaller town never got dispatched of the incident but called for backup and looked for the people.
Not at single person in that Waffle House CCW.
The Waffle House is situation along the border of a two cities. One with a police department that actually does something and one from a major city that would usually show up LONG after a robbery or murder has happened (don't want to get into that). A police officer that was actually going to eat at the Waffle House pulled into the parking lot spooking the group when the fifty-cent wannabe produced a pistol griped shotgun from the back of a Toyota sedan. The group of people jumped into several vehicles and left the scene. The way the other groupees covered around the shotgun welding person, the police officer did not see the incident. When he walked into the restaurant, the waitress told him what happened and he proceeded to look for the group. He was from the smaller department. The larger department that the 911 operator relayed the message to took around an hour to show up. The police officer from the smaller town never got dispatched of the incident but called for backup and looked for the people.
Not at single person in that Waffle House CCW.
Shaughn Leayme
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Me..Leave a 20 on the table ask the cook where the back door is and herd the others with me out the back door as tail end charlie keeping an eye on the front...I don't need to have bo-diddy/tapanrack/whatever feel that he has been dissed and to redeem his manhood (which we know is nonexistent) walks back to his vehicle and him and his boys come back with a shotgun/hipoint and decide to just start pumping rounds thru the windows.
Most of these chain food places are fishbowls and only in a few older cafe's is there anything that might qualify as cover, everything else is concealment.
My name isn't Custer, nor do I want to experience Bull Run either.
Exit stage right........
Most of these chain food places are fishbowls and only in a few older cafe's is there anything that might qualify as cover, everything else is concealment.
My name isn't Custer, nor do I want to experience Bull Run either.
Exit stage right........
-terry
Member
My favorite idea was to pour grease in front of the door. I chucked for 10 minutes imagining that scenario.
vanilla_gorilla
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I think this is the best answer. I'd probably ensure my cover garment was properly arranged for a speedy draw, perhaps even place my strong hand on or close to my weapon without revealing it, and then be watchful.
I like the hashbrowns too much to just duck out.
-terry:
That aside, pouring grease in front of the door would make somebody's lawyer massively happy all the way through the civil claim for personal injury and suffering as the plaintiff became the proud new owner of a waffle house and all of the corporation's worldly assets.
Well, at least be thankful you didn't upchuck for 10 minutes.
That aside, pouring grease in front of the door would make somebody's lawyer massively happy all the way through the civil claim for personal injury and suffering as the plaintiff became the proud new owner of a waffle house and all of the corporation's worldly assets.
kengrubb
Member
I'd order pancakes. Nothing opens up a can of whupass faster than dissing the Waffle House staff by confusing them with IHOP. If the gangsters, wannabee or otherwise, return to the restaurant to start trouble, the Waffle House staff would be all over 'em.
Threads like this..
always bring to mind some questions for the "I CCW for the protection of my family" folks and those folks whose only response is to exit stage left.
Be clear that I am not disrespecting your decisions...just looking for the edges of your thought process.
Would your answer change if the only other customers in the WH had been a woman and her 4 elementary age children who could not be persuaded to follow you out the back?
Would your response have been the same (exit stage left) if you had come across Jerry Hobbs in a public park in the not too distant past? (You remember Jerry, stabbed his 8 y.o. daugher and her 9 y.o. friend 31 times.) Would you have yelled you were calling the police and tried to be a good witness in that case? What if you had arrived just before the initial stab?
Again, I'm not saying you don't have the right to your decisions...just wondering if there are any situations you would intervene as a third party.
I know some might consider this a semi-hijack. I'm thinking it's exploring a bit deeper the situation. So far the answers seem to fall into three camps... shrug, mentally prep for idiot returning, finish hashbrowns OR un-a** the op area ORgo bunker and start figuring lines of fire. I'd like to explore the exit stage left option a bit more.
migoi
always bring to mind some questions for the "I CCW for the protection of my family" folks and those folks whose only response is to exit stage left.
Be clear that I am not disrespecting your decisions...just looking for the edges of your thought process.
Would your answer change if the only other customers in the WH had been a woman and her 4 elementary age children who could not be persuaded to follow you out the back?
Would your response have been the same (exit stage left) if you had come across Jerry Hobbs in a public park in the not too distant past? (You remember Jerry, stabbed his 8 y.o. daugher and her 9 y.o. friend 31 times.) Would you have yelled you were calling the police and tried to be a good witness in that case? What if you had arrived just before the initial stab?
Again, I'm not saying you don't have the right to your decisions...just wondering if there are any situations you would intervene as a third party.
I know some might consider this a semi-hijack. I'm thinking it's exploring a bit deeper the situation. So far the answers seem to fall into three camps... shrug, mentally prep for idiot returning, finish hashbrowns OR un-a** the op area ORgo bunker and start figuring lines of fire. I'd like to explore the exit stage left option a bit more.
migoi
Shaughn Leayme
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migoi,
I can try and stop lemmings from running off a cliff, but I will not put myself at risk if they insist on it.
The other woman and children..is it your duty to protect them, over your family, if they insist that there is no threat, do you risk your loved ones, trying to convince this person, that there "MAY" be a threat or do you do the very thing you have practiced, scenariod and discussed with your loved ones should this or similar situation arise?
My loved ones know, that if I feel a situation is developing and it appears to be going totally wrong, they follow my lead, without hesitation or discussion, it may turn out to be nothing, but if it was something, it is hoped they are safe and clear of it.
If I am by myself in the waffle shop and there is other innocents present and the confrontation, if it happens may be with up 5 individuals (as per the original post) and possibly with a disparity in weapons, since some of the gang bangers and wannabes sometimes have something a little more serious than just a pistol or shotgun in the trunk of their vehicle, I would suggest to others that we exit by the back door, but I am not going to waste valuable time and stay in the potential kill zone, if they shrug it off and say "nahhh it's just a bunch of hot air"
A CCW does not immediately mean that I have become my brother's keeper, if a situation develops right there right now and the only option I see, is to draw and engage, then that is what I will do, but given the blissful fog, that many people walk around in today, add to it the "it won't happen to me" mindset and I won't waste valuable time, trying to convince someone dead set on ignoring the possibilities of a situation standing there trying arguing the point.
A major part of having a CCW is learning that avoiding the problem, in it's entirety, is worth as much if not more than all the training and combat skill's in the world.
My actions depend on the developing situation and I adjust accordingly, but "George Armstrong Custer" I am not and while I may wind up at the "Little Big Horn" it doesn't mean I will go looking for it gun in hand.
I can try and stop lemmings from running off a cliff, but I will not put myself at risk if they insist on it.
The other woman and children..is it your duty to protect them, over your family, if they insist that there is no threat, do you risk your loved ones, trying to convince this person, that there "MAY" be a threat or do you do the very thing you have practiced, scenariod and discussed with your loved ones should this or similar situation arise?
My loved ones know, that if I feel a situation is developing and it appears to be going totally wrong, they follow my lead, without hesitation or discussion, it may turn out to be nothing, but if it was something, it is hoped they are safe and clear of it.
If I am by myself in the waffle shop and there is other innocents present and the confrontation, if it happens may be with up 5 individuals (as per the original post) and possibly with a disparity in weapons, since some of the gang bangers and wannabes sometimes have something a little more serious than just a pistol or shotgun in the trunk of their vehicle, I would suggest to others that we exit by the back door, but I am not going to waste valuable time and stay in the potential kill zone, if they shrug it off and say "nahhh it's just a bunch of hot air"
A CCW does not immediately mean that I have become my brother's keeper, if a situation develops right there right now and the only option I see, is to draw and engage, then that is what I will do, but given the blissful fog, that many people walk around in today, add to it the "it won't happen to me" mindset and I won't waste valuable time, trying to convince someone dead set on ignoring the possibilities of a situation standing there trying arguing the point.
A major part of having a CCW is learning that avoiding the problem, in it's entirety, is worth as much if not more than all the training and combat skill's in the world.
My actions depend on the developing situation and I adjust accordingly, but "George Armstrong Custer" I am not and while I may wind up at the "Little Big Horn" it doesn't mean I will go looking for it gun in hand.
Thank you..
for your answer. Does this mean there are no circumstances where you would put yourself at risk to save the lives of those not of your family?
Again, not attempting to disparage your choices... just exploring the extent of those convictions.
I am finding it difficult to understand how these ethics would work out if we removed the possibility of firearms being the problem or solution.
Would those voting to head outta there similiarly refuse to put themselves at risk to save others in situations not having anything to do with firearms? Would there be a similar sense of duty only to family if the situation presented was a toddler in the middle of a busy highway? Would you stand steadfast at the curb or risk being struck by a car?
What about service in the military? One could make quite the arguement that those dying in our current efforts in the mid-east are likewise abandoning their wives/husbands to widow(er)hood and orphaning their children, thus rendering them fools of the first order. Or does the paycheck make the difference?
Are there any circumstances which the unpaid risking of one's life would be acceptable?
I noticed there was no answer for the Jerry Hobbs factor. You round the corner of the trail, you're 12 feet from Hobbs the Idiot as he is kneeling over the first of his victims (an 8 or 9 year old girl). He's armed with a knife. The T-drill says the distance is about half of what can be covered before you complete your draw. Do you attempt it or do you take to your heels to be a good witness?
Again, I believe these situations, at their core, are the same... are there no circumstances where you would jeopardize yourself without monetary compensation? (General open question, not directed at any one person.)
migoi
An added thought: Many on here have advocated voluntary CCW by teachers. Would the hit the highway right now option be open to those teachers? Since the proposal was just allowing those teacher with their own, voluntarily acquired, regular civilian type of CCW to do so on school grounds. Would you expect the teacher to stick it out for the fight or would you be okay with him taking the shoe leather express out the door and leave the kidlets to fend for themselves?
migoi
for your answer. Does this mean there are no circumstances where you would put yourself at risk to save the lives of those not of your family?
Again, not attempting to disparage your choices... just exploring the extent of those convictions.
I am finding it difficult to understand how these ethics would work out if we removed the possibility of firearms being the problem or solution.
Would those voting to head outta there similiarly refuse to put themselves at risk to save others in situations not having anything to do with firearms? Would there be a similar sense of duty only to family if the situation presented was a toddler in the middle of a busy highway? Would you stand steadfast at the curb or risk being struck by a car?
What about service in the military? One could make quite the arguement that those dying in our current efforts in the mid-east are likewise abandoning their wives/husbands to widow(er)hood and orphaning their children, thus rendering them fools of the first order. Or does the paycheck make the difference?
Are there any circumstances which the unpaid risking of one's life would be acceptable?
I noticed there was no answer for the Jerry Hobbs factor. You round the corner of the trail, you're 12 feet from Hobbs the Idiot as he is kneeling over the first of his victims (an 8 or 9 year old girl). He's armed with a knife. The T-drill says the distance is about half of what can be covered before you complete your draw. Do you attempt it or do you take to your heels to be a good witness?
Again, I believe these situations, at their core, are the same... are there no circumstances where you would jeopardize yourself without monetary compensation? (General open question, not directed at any one person.)
migoi
An added thought: Many on here have advocated voluntary CCW by teachers. Would the hit the highway right now option be open to those teachers? Since the proposal was just allowing those teacher with their own, voluntarily acquired, regular civilian type of CCW to do so on school grounds. Would you expect the teacher to stick it out for the fight or would you be okay with him taking the shoe leather express out the door and leave the kidlets to fend for themselves?
migoi
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Shaughn Leayme
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"A CCW does not immediately mean that I have become my brother's keeper, IF a situation develops right there right now and the only option I see, is to draw and engage,then that is what I will do "
It means that you have to approach each situation and determine as best as you can, what your response should be at that time and place.
Service in the Military is different, you know going in, what the requirements are and being put in harms way is one of them, same applies to law enforcement, it's part of the job description.
The presence of a weapon be it a knife or gun or plain old numbers or disparity in size and strength are all part of the mental checklist when considering the course and options you may choose to pursue.
Employing deadly force (remember drawing a pistol, means that at that time and place "YOU" believed that deadly force was warranted) is something you hope to never have to do and even in a legitimate shoot, you may still have some legal problems (sued in civil court by survivors) potential emotional issues and even the media exposure. You will also find out who your real friends are afterwards.
There is alot of responsibility attached to CCW and if you want to do it right, you must accept that responsibility and look at the potential consequences of your actions, all of them.
It means that you have to approach each situation and determine as best as you can, what your response should be at that time and place.
Service in the Military is different, you know going in, what the requirements are and being put in harms way is one of them, same applies to law enforcement, it's part of the job description.
The presence of a weapon be it a knife or gun or plain old numbers or disparity in size and strength are all part of the mental checklist when considering the course and options you may choose to pursue.
Employing deadly force (remember drawing a pistol, means that at that time and place "YOU" believed that deadly force was warranted) is something you hope to never have to do and even in a legitimate shoot, you may still have some legal problems (sued in civil court by survivors) potential emotional issues and even the media exposure. You will also find out who your real friends are afterwards.
There is alot of responsibility attached to CCW and if you want to do it right, you must accept that responsibility and look at the potential consequences of your actions, all of them.
I couldn't really...
find any direct answers to my questions in your reply but it would seem that you are saying there is no situation, excect when you have been previously contracted and paid, where you would put yourself in jeopardy for someone not of your tribe (family and friends). Or did I misinterpret your response?
What about the questions concerning the toddler in the street and a hypothetical interruption of Mr. Hobbs' evil-doing? Curbside witness or a quick game of dodge the Buicks? Shoe leather express to call 911 or chancing it that the T-drill dice roll one in your favor?
migoi
find any direct answers to my questions in your reply but it would seem that you are saying there is no situation, excect when you have been previously contracted and paid, where you would put yourself in jeopardy for someone not of your tribe (family and friends). Or did I misinterpret your response?
What about the questions concerning the toddler in the street and a hypothetical interruption of Mr. Hobbs' evil-doing? Curbside witness or a quick game of dodge the Buicks? Shoe leather express to call 911 or chancing it that the T-drill dice roll one in your favor?
migoi
Shaughn Leayme
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I thought I gave a direct answer: Every situation need's to be evaluated on it's merits and a decision has to be made based on the information available and the course of action will be derived from the evaluation.
In some situations, what you see is not what is happening, that is why no one answers in absolutes, I see 2 people in a fight or a man tackling a women, I draw and shoot the obvious attacker and ...find out it is an undercover officer making an arrest...sorry just doesn't do it, no reset button once a bullet is launched.
I see a women with a man at gunpoint, is it a robbery or a domestic, is it another CCW fending off her X boyfriend or a common garden variety thug or rapist.
An adult assaulting a child, can I say at 12 feet that depending on my angle to the pair, that an assault is taking place? Would I look closer, surely, and my actions would then be determined at that point. "see opening statement"
I have done the Tuller drill in real life and I had to step up to the plate, I am still here to reflect on what I learned and I refer you to the opening statement, once again.
In some situations, what you see is not what is happening, that is why no one answers in absolutes, I see 2 people in a fight or a man tackling a women, I draw and shoot the obvious attacker and ...find out it is an undercover officer making an arrest...sorry just doesn't do it, no reset button once a bullet is launched.
I see a women with a man at gunpoint, is it a robbery or a domestic, is it another CCW fending off her X boyfriend or a common garden variety thug or rapist.
An adult assaulting a child, can I say at 12 feet that depending on my angle to the pair, that an assault is taking place? Would I look closer, surely, and my actions would then be determined at that point. "see opening statement"
I have done the Tuller drill in real life and I had to step up to the plate, I am still here to reflect on what I learned and I refer you to the opening statement, once again.
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Darwinism in action. The best thing to do in that situation is SPLIT. Inviting others to join you in SPLITTING and enjoying the umbrella protection of your ccw is the BEST thing to do under the circumstances. If they don't see that or don't agree, fine, you made the offer, but they made their own decision. I have an obligation to my wife and son to continue to exist. Now, if I'm standing there and suddenly homie pulls out a .44mag and aims it at a bystander, I'm going to unleash my ccw (if I have one) or do what I can to stop what's going on right here right now. But I'm not going to sit and cower and WAIT for a situation to materialize if there's a chance to get out before that happens.
Best way to survive a shoot-out: Don't be there when it happens!
Thank you for your answer...
bruss. Another question though (I know, I'm full of them).
Why wouldn't taking to your heels also be the best answer when homie points his .44mag at a bystander? Seems to me whatever actions said bystander took to induce large caliber expressions from the dude with the gun would also be viewed as Darwinism in action.
I'm also interested in your answers to the other questions in my posts.... where would you stand (or not) on the toddler on the freeway situation. This by the way was in the news recently. The toddler was discovered to have come from a "filthly" apartment not far from the freeway where the LEO's discovered mom asleep and a sibling eating spaghetti off the floor. Seems to me standing on the curb and watching the toddler get squashed would also be darwinism in action.
Just attempting to explore deeping into the whole "I don't have any responsibility for those not of my tribe (family and friends)" thought process.
migoi
bruss. Another question though (I know, I'm full of them).
Why wouldn't taking to your heels also be the best answer when homie points his .44mag at a bystander? Seems to me whatever actions said bystander took to induce large caliber expressions from the dude with the gun would also be viewed as Darwinism in action.
I'm also interested in your answers to the other questions in my posts.... where would you stand (or not) on the toddler on the freeway situation. This by the way was in the news recently. The toddler was discovered to have come from a "filthly" apartment not far from the freeway where the LEO's discovered mom asleep and a sibling eating spaghetti off the floor. Seems to me standing on the curb and watching the toddler get squashed would also be darwinism in action.
Just attempting to explore deeping into the whole "I don't have any responsibility for those not of my tribe (family and friends)" thought process.
migoi
kungfuhippie
Member
migoi,
did you read about my cousin and her kids?
The eminant threat situation is that you as a human being will try to avoid a brutal act. Leaving is the way to avoid the WH situation. If the guy pulls a gun in your presence the situation is different, what's to say he stops at shooting the waitress infront of you and doesn't go for you next? The child on the freeway is different, leaving and inviting the waitress/others to follow and they don't doesn't equal child on freeway. The better analogy is if a woman is on top a bridge threatening to jump. do you try to talk her down? try to catch her? or ignore the situation? Most here if we use this analogy would try to talk her down. Trying to catch her seems foolish. You are saying that we should either try to catch her or we must me ignoring the situation.
Hope this clarified.
did you read about my cousin and her kids?
The eminant threat situation is that you as a human being will try to avoid a brutal act. Leaving is the way to avoid the WH situation. If the guy pulls a gun in your presence the situation is different, what's to say he stops at shooting the waitress infront of you and doesn't go for you next? The child on the freeway is different, leaving and inviting the waitress/others to follow and they don't doesn't equal child on freeway. The better analogy is if a woman is on top a bridge threatening to jump. do you try to talk her down? try to catch her? or ignore the situation? Most here if we use this analogy would try to talk her down. Trying to catch her seems foolish. You are saying that we should either try to catch her or we must me ignoring the situation.
Hope this clarified.
mljdeckard
Member
without reading the WHOLE thread,
Kind of a split decision.
I go to the pancake house with the family a few times a year. I go there to discuss life until oh-dark-thirty with friends of mine about once a month.
When you carry, your entire attention should be focused on situational awareness. One of the first questions you shold ask and answer to every place you enter is: Does this place have a back door? In the case of restaurants, according to health code, there is always a door in the kitchen. I always ask to sit where I can watch the front door. If I can, I watch the window to see where newcomers are parked.
IF I'M WITH THE FAMILY, retreat. Period. Go ou the back door and make sure I go the opposite way of the trouble.
Pull out the cell, call 9-11. Even if you don't get to talk, the first one to call the police is the victim. Even if someone else already did, make sure you are on record as being on the defensive. There will be an audio record of everything that happens.
The friends I go with are armed too. One of them is 6'9" and 400 lbs. He carries a desert eagle. I think I'm safe to speak for them in saying we would act to prevent anyone from getting hurt. If that means covering both sides of the door, or taking a defensive position somewhere, the idea is to make sure all of them are covered. Concentrate fire on the offensive weapon. If other weapons appear, hit them next. They may come back empty-handed. They might not come back at all. THE BI%$* COULD BE ARMED TOO. Cover all directions and all threats. Secure ALL targets that surrender, facedown, hands behind the head, one leg crossed over the other. Make sure when the police get there you aren't mistaken for a bad guy.
Kind of a split decision.
I go to the pancake house with the family a few times a year. I go there to discuss life until oh-dark-thirty with friends of mine about once a month.
When you carry, your entire attention should be focused on situational awareness. One of the first questions you shold ask and answer to every place you enter is: Does this place have a back door? In the case of restaurants, according to health code, there is always a door in the kitchen. I always ask to sit where I can watch the front door. If I can, I watch the window to see where newcomers are parked.
IF I'M WITH THE FAMILY, retreat. Period. Go ou the back door and make sure I go the opposite way of the trouble.
Pull out the cell, call 9-11. Even if you don't get to talk, the first one to call the police is the victim. Even if someone else already did, make sure you are on record as being on the defensive. There will be an audio record of everything that happens.
The friends I go with are armed too. One of them is 6'9" and 400 lbs. He carries a desert eagle. I think I'm safe to speak for them in saying we would act to prevent anyone from getting hurt. If that means covering both sides of the door, or taking a defensive position somewhere, the idea is to make sure all of them are covered. Concentrate fire on the offensive weapon. If other weapons appear, hit them next. They may come back empty-handed. They might not come back at all. THE BI%$* COULD BE ARMED TOO. Cover all directions and all threats. Secure ALL targets that surrender, facedown, hands behind the head, one leg crossed over the other. Make sure when the police get there you aren't mistaken for a bad guy.
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