Someone "reaches" for your gun at the range

[Carbonator]

While shooting at ranges over the years I have had people approach my personal space while I was focused on my shooting or reloading etc... One time a range officer approached my side and started asking me what kind of gun I was shooting and even if he could shoot it etc... while I was in the middle of a focused shooting round. Other strangers too have come very close physically to my weapons to admire or inquire and looked like they were also coming close to actually picking up one of my pistols that were laying on the shelf in front of me, whether out of lack of respect for other's possessions or personal space. Certainly there are times when someone could easily grab one of my guns, with or without me being able to intercept their hand. Sometimes people tend to get too friendly and casual when at the range in my opinion and people can get sloppy with their interactions with others. And of course a person with bad intentions could easily grab a gun from a shooter for whatever reason. I have heard of people renting guns at ranges to commit suicide so there could be a wide range of motives for someone to reach for one of my guns.

I have wondered what I would do if someone instantly reached towards my gun at the range without my consent or knowledge. Were they going to just point and inquire or actually grab it? That's a very very fine line. My instinct would be to instantly and physically manhandle the person to regain possession and control of my firearm, but where cat-like reflexes are needed my mind might be more focused on my own range motions and not typical street situational awareness. Of course that brings up the question of whether or not I was justified in taking physical steps to secure my weapon. I wouldn't want to bring physical force or let loose a verbal assault against someone who had a momentary lapse of reason, or wasn't paying attention and confused my shooting lane with his buddies lane. I also have this personal rule about not being shot by my own weapon. Somewhere in there is also "the law" which I would rather stay on the right side of, and of course defending myself from an assault charge is also something I would prefer to avoid.

Perhaps if you have had any close calls or nervous feelings at the range or experiences with someone naively or rudely or even with hostility approaching your weapons that would be interesting to hear. Perhaps you have tactics or a strategy while training to deal with someone reaching for your gun when you are at the range?

 

[hso]

instantly and physically manhandle the person

That's beyond a touch paranoid.

If you assault anyone you'll end up cross-threaded with the authorities. Whether it is the range and finding yourself banned from using it or with an actual assault charge you're behavior will be seen as baseless.

 

[Shadow 7D]

You yell a real loud NO and start to acquire a new target.
this really depends on the environment and your * other assessments

But asking some nice gun nut if you 'can try it out'
then emptying the gun into said nut is one of the ways known felons on the run and others of their ilk have acquired their weapons,
usually on empty ranges or 'informal' shooting spots.

 

[orionengnr]

Never had it happen, in many years of range shooting at ranges around the country.

In our indoor ranges, the "stalls" are fairly small and somewhat restrictive, so the scenario as described would be pretty difficult.

Since I have my CHL, I carry 24/7, including at the range. In a worst-case scenario, if someone were to act in a seriously un-toward manner, let's just say he wouldn't necessarily be the only one with a gun in his hand...

 

[OldmanFCSA]

Never had it happen, in many years of range shooting at ranges around the country.

In our indoor ranges, the "stalls" are fairly small and somewhat restrictive, so the scenario as described would be pretty difficult.

Since I have my CHL, I carry 24/7, including at the range. In a worst-case scenario, if someone were to act in a seriously un-toward manner, let's just say he wouldn't necessarily be the only one with a gun in his hand...

Agreed !!!

Reach to stop with weak hand, fill other hand with CC Weapon.

Action after that depends on their actions.

 

[Nushif]

Depends entirely on the situation.

Wrestling the RO or some random guy to the ground or "aquiring a new target" just because you became uncomfortable seems just as idiotic as letting people who do not look like they are there to shoot waltz right up to you on public shooting land.

There is no canned solution to this, but frankly I have never been at a range and even had this go through my head as any kind of serious threat. I know we should all be in constant condition yellow, but hey, not everyone who doesn't wear a cardigan is a gangbanger, although I am seriously starting to feel that maybe next time I go to the gun show I better not wear anything post 1940 fashion, with all this "hoodlum" talk around. 8)

 

[Sav .250]

Have you tried using one weapon at a time,with the others(if there are any) left in there cases. No need for excess weapons being left un-attended/exposed.
Your range must be something else with people invading your space waiting to grab your weapon. Or at least that`s what you "think" they have in mind.
Switch you range day to monday ......hardly anyone there.

 

[Kevin Rohrer]

If you are that concerned, don't make then accessible to others.

 

[Magwa]

I agree with Sav. 250. Don't leave them exposed or if you have to, make sure they are not loaded and keep the magazines and ammo separate.

 

[Al Thompson]

Ever since I loaded and fired six .41 Magnum cartridges in a Ruger .45 Colt, I too try to only have one firearm out.

 

[MisterMike]

I've never had anything remotely like that happen at a range. If this is a concern and you've got multiple weapons at the range, take the thirty seconds needed to make the unused weapon safe and put it in your range bag.

I believe you're seriously over- and under-thinking this. The answer seems as clear as can be. Either stop going to the range or secure your weapon, so this isn't a concern to you.

 

[Bubba613]

Someone reaches for your gun you ought to consider it a deadly threat. Do it.

 

[conw]

It's your responsibility to minimize risk when you're handling guns. Just don't leave guns out except for the one you are shooting/controlling. If you must have two or more out, leave the other(s) in a cleared/safe state.

If someone approaches you rapidly I think you should have a strategy in mind to keep distance, verbally and using body positioning, while controlling your space and managing your weapon... much like you would do if you weren't at a range.

Chances are it's harmless but using necessary force to prevent someone from grabbing the only gun you have in your booth is reasonable. This is as simple as retention technique torquing against the thumb if you're holding it, or disarm technique torquing against the thumb if they're holding it. Or aggressive body positioning and forward movement prior to their grabbing a gun lying on a table.

Bottom line is really just don't make guns, especially loaded ones, easily accessible to unknowns. When I was a young kid I was raised not to grab stuff out of people's hands. I guess it really never occurred to me. But it did to other kids in school. I guess some of them never grew out of it. Most of them are harmless so you need a multi-step process for dealing with them that responds to escalation on their part, without escalating the situation yourself.

 

[Bula]

Some of the responses above will likely yield the net result of Carbonator going to jail. Shooting someone because you thought they touched your gun at the range is not justifiable. So you leave fully loaded firearms sitting on your bench WHILE you are shooting another one? I keep them on the table action open, unloaded. I can't imagine anyone thinking they can help themselves to your empty gun, while you are holding a loaded and ready firearm, in your hand.

 

[Byrd666]

I can honestly say I've never even thought about that happening, let alone had it actually occur. I've had a few folks walk up and take a look at my small arsenal sitting in my open gun case directly in front me between clips/reloads. We've had discussions where I hand them a weapon for perusal but, have yet to have anybody just reach for one. I think if a body were to do that, I'd have to stop what I was doing and inform them of personal space and personal property manners.

 

[Strykervet]

That's beyond a touch paranoid.

If you assault anyone you'll end up cross-threaded with the authorities. Whether it is the range and finding yourself banned from using it or with an actual assault charge you're behavior will be seen as baseless.

And if you let someone take a deadly weapon and use it on someone else you can be held liable too.

Damned if you, damned if you don't, my Granny always said.

The other day at the range, the guy that lives there (they have a groundskeeper and a manager that live on the range --since it is open from 7am to 10pm, I wonder about their peace of mind) came up and talked to me for a long time. It broke my concentration and bugged me, I like to be left alone for the most part, particularly at the range. But he was innocent enough.

On the other hand, I've had folks bug the fire out of me and beg to use my gear. Kind of like a crackhead asking for money on the street. My buddy let the latest guy fire one of my M4's, I would not have. I only fire handloads, and the last thing I want is for a weapon to blow up in someone else's face (except my buddy, he takes his own risks!). My luck is that the one bad load I load in years will be the one someone else fires.

Now yesterday I was at the range. I shoot in the dark, rain, and cold a lot (I like the privacy) and one of the things I HATE is going down range to check targets. There are four to twelve 1000 watt stadium lights and I cannot see the firing line. The range is a small community, a very nice range for such a small number of shooters and it has a gate, but still... Since most of my targets start at 100m, well, you get the idea. My worry is being robbed while downrange, or worse, some nut opening up on me downrange. I have my carry rig on me, but still.

The other concern, I was shooting yesterday and it was warm enough that I took off my fleece. So I was behind my scope and my carry rig was exposed. I don't like not having total control over my rig, it bothers me. I am pretty good about "feeling" people that get close to me, but when I'm totally focused on that perfect group, I'm a little less aware. It would have been all to easy to walk up behind me and pull my pistol.

So I totally understand the concern the OP is stating. Perhaps his wording didn't come off so coherent for everyone but it is sort of difficult to explain unless you felt this way.

If someone went for my carry piece, I guess I'd have no choice but to take 'em out. I'm not a martial artist, but I did learn a good bit of ground fighting second hand from the Gracie family (the combatives instructor at the advanced infantry school I taught marksmanship at actually lived and trained with the Gracie's in Brazil, courtesy US taxpayers). I feel confident enough to disarm or go at it with someone armed if they are close enough --not comfortable, but confident.

Shady characters frequent ranges also. I heard of one in Las Vegas that has been the site for many suicides. It is or was a rental range. I went to one in Memphis way back when, '96 I think, and that was the worst range I've ever been to. The Sheriff dept. ran it, and they had convicts that ran around enforcing MANY rules. They were always begging for 50 cents for a coke, they wanted tips, and they were scared as heck about getting "in trouble" if you disobeyed the rules. The Sheriff wouldn't approach you, they would yell at the convict who would relay the message. Really stupid. They really wantes someone to talk to also, and there was one assigned to every shooter. The only upside was when the range went cold, they went downrange and changed the targets for you.

Ranges that bother me the most are the shooting pits. Since most ranges around here limit rapid fire and fire from a holster, all the unsupervised ranges have become unsafe ranges. Kids with AK's acting like XBox heroes, white supremacists doing the same, and people handling firearms that REALLY need a safety course.

This post has made me think of something to bring up at the next meeting. Perhaps we need to paint lines around the shooting benches, kind of like a batter's box. The idea is you stay out of that box when someone else is occupying it. I think it would be a good idea for privacy, peace of mind, and security. You know, shooting has a lot in common with golf, as much as I hate to say that, and you don't see people crowding golfers or invading their personal space. Violating the space occupied by a shooter would result in disciplinary action, get enough complaints and get banned. A complaint and a quick check on the video cameras are all that is needed.

 

[JustinJ]

While shooting at ranges over the years I have had people approach my personal space while I was focused on my shooting or reloading etc...

If someone interupts you in middle of actually shooting they are rude and should firmly be told "please allow me to finish this clip". If they aproach you while simply reloading your gun then i see no reason why you can't be polite and socialable. If they try and carry on a long conversation simply say "excuse me, i'm going to get back to my shooting".

Other strangers too have come very close physically to my weapons to admire or inquire and looked like they were also coming close to actually picking up one of my pistols that were laying on the shelf in front of me, whether out of lack of respect for other's possessions or personal space.

In what way did they look like they were going to grab your gun? Were they reaching for it? If so that is innapropriate and you have a right to tell them please don't touch my gun. But if they just lean forward to get a better look then you should lighten up and not perpetuate the image of know it all gun guys who can't be bothered by people new to the hobby.

Sometimes people tend to get too friendly and casual when at the range in my opinion and people can get sloppy with their interactions with others.

Being friendly with other people at the range is a bad thing? How do you expect more people to get involved in the hobby and protection of gun rights if the gun community does not welcome them? When i first began getting into guns my interests always grew after meeting a friendly shooter at the range who introduced me to a new gun i was not familiar with.

 

[Nushif]

Being friendly with other people at the range is a bad thing? How do you expect more people to get involved in the hobby and protection of gun rights if the gun community does not welcome them?

"Range time" seems to be a vastly different concept for a lot people.

We have people in this thread alone, whose range time is focused, succinct, driven by performance and in general not for general viewing.
For others, such as myself, range time is defined by friendliness, sharing, sociability and a shared love of a hobby.

Now, I will be the last to say someone ought to behave in certain ways, but I know that if a range frequently draws people who are no fun to be around, chances are I won't be going there. I tend to not hang around "seriousface" people. And maybe that is the core of this argument.

[edit]
Now that I think about I somehow managed having fun every last time I went shooting, to include both Handguns Level II and III ... maybe I am just lucky, or maybe my temper allows me to approach a topic seriously without being dour. I guess not everyone is equally blessed in life.
[/edit]

 

[Averageman]

I was standing in line at an indoor range in Pfluggerville/Austin years ago and a Gentleman had set his range bag at his 9 O'Clock and was talking to the Clerk and paying.
While his attention was elsewhere a very young boy of maybe 7 picked up his bag, opened it and was reaching for one of many hanguns within.
I gave them both a "Hey!" and the Gentleman proceded to chew the little kids ear off. The kids parents were nearby, but not paying attention to him and the Gentleman had left his weapons unsecure.
It was definatly a lesson in how quickly things can go bad, but who is really at fault?

It is your gun and your responcability, assuming things will be ok when you leave them unsecure is a disaster waiting to happen. Secure your weapon wherever you are.

 

[Nushif]

[snark]
Man, clearly he should have drawn his CCW piece, dropped the kid on the ground in a classic combatives maneuver after breaking his thumb and then called the cops wanting to press charges for theft of the highest order, reckless endangerment and being an XBox operator.
[/snark]

Very nice example, though. Some very basic precaution or rather uh ... lack of obliviousness saved the day. Not what essentially boils down to premeditated assault.

 

[hso]

And if you let someone take a deadly weapon and use it on someone else you can be held liable too.

Please provide a citation for this. Victims of theft are not held liable for what the thieves do with the victim's property.

Also, I challenge anyone to provide a citation for a gun being stolen off the range while the owner is standing there shooting. This whole theoretical sounds like someone angry over being bothered using the theft or threat excuse to justify an exaggerated reaction. Another "just itch'n to shoot someone" tale that, hopefully, would never play out in reality.

 

[jeepnik]

I often shoot a lefty Randall. I've had a number of folks walk over and watch. Most know somethings different, but aren't sure what. All have waited until it was okay to interrupt and ask questions. "All" have been offered a chance to shoot it (hey, if you can't treat fellow shooters with respect, YOU should leave the range). It usually ends up in more BS'ing than shooting, but taking guns is aways good.

 

[Fred Fuller]

People stalking shooting ranges in order to steal firearms is unusual but it does happen. The perpetrators in the FBI's Miami Shootout (Platt and Matix) were known to obtain firearms and vehicles by shooting the owners at isolated informal shooting ranges (http://www.fbi.gov/news/podcasts/inside/miami-shootout-anniversary.mp3/view, transcript attached).

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2010/07/shooting_range_homicide_victio.html
Enola [PA] man killed at Cumberland County shooting range
Published: Thursday, July 22, 2010, 7:01 AM

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2010/08/suspect_in_shooting_death_of_e.html
Suspect in shooting death of Enola lawyer was arming rebel group, district attorney says
Published: Sunday, August 01, 2010, 11:17 PM

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=534519

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=373815

Etc.

Thing is, it's not likely anyone will be so blatant as to just walk up and reach for one of your guns. But even that is something to be alert for on the distant chance that it does happen. Being on your guard however does not give you carte blanche to over-react to the situation. Think about appropriate things to say in advance and be prepared to say them before a stranger gets too close. "Please wait till I'm done with this target, then we can talk." "Don't get too close, this thing throws brass really hard." Or whatever.

People know that there will be guns at shooting ranges, formal and informal. It's a good idea to think through things in advance and not set yourself up for potential problems. Go to the range with another shooter whenever you can. When you're out on the range with a friend or friends, casually watch out for each other and help keep inquisitive strangers at bay. Don't all go downrange at the same time. Don't needlessly display multiple firearms when you're at the range. Keep a concealed pistol on your person, where it's legal to do so, or openly holster a sidearm where that's legal. And so on.

Paranoia is not healthy, but a reasonable level of awareness certainly is...

 

[mortablunt]

I've only ever had this happen to me once. My response was that when I saw the man reaching towards my gun while I was counting my magazines, I put my left hand on the gun just fore of where the mag well was located and said with a grin: "It's not nice to handle a man's gun without his permission. You just have to ask first." There was no reason to get confrontational, violent, or angry.

 

[armoredman]

I saw a rifle I hadn't seen in person before on the range a few months ago, a Mossberg Plinkster AR clone. I approached within a few yards, (not feet), and waited politely until he noticed me, whereupon I asked about the rifle. He invited me closer to look at it, and I stepped up with my hands behind my back. He raised an eyebrow, and I said, "A man should admire another man's firearms like he admires another man's wife - without touching. "
I shoot at an unsupervised range, and I don't shoot long distance without a range buddy, if I can help it. On the other hand, I can simply sling arms to go downrange and change targets if I so choose. Steal the range bag - everything in it is replaceable and worthless to thieves, unless they REALLY want my handloads!
I also have a loaded and concealed sidearm on me at all times. I also have observed the Internet Rambos in action, and usually leave when they start "getting into their groove".