Soooo . . . What Procedure Do You Use to Carry A Full Mag Plus One in the Chamber?

[christcorp]

It would depend on the gun. For a 1911A1; I won't put one in the chamber, because "Cocked and Locked" is not the way I want to store my guns. Cocked and locked is "RR". And it doesn't take 3 seconds to make a gun ready. It takes LESS than 1 second to chamber a round. A number of my guns have decockers; Sig P220; Walter PPK; AP-MBP; so I can chamber one and decock it. And I guess I could remove the magazine and top it off. But I've been shooting guns regularly for more than 30 years. 20 of those years were in the military also teaching the use of weapons. As someone sort of eluded to; if I can't hit my target with the 7 rounds that are in my magazine; I have no business shooting a gun. But even with my P220, Walther, and AP-MBP; I don't leave them with one in the chamber. Yes, I do with the revolvers, but that's because there's no other option when loading a revolver takes time. Even with speed loaders. But chambering a round in a semi-auto takes less than a second. Cocked and locked is not a smart option. Manually lowering the hammer is a LESS smart option. A decocker is totally acceptable. But leaving it chambered really isn't necessary unless you think you need that extra 1 bullet.

 

[Sam1911]

Cocked and locked is "RR". And it doesn't take 3 seconds to make a gun ready. It takes LESS than 1 second to chamber a round. ... chambering a round in a semi-auto takes less than a second. Cocked and locked is not a smart option.

You know, I've often wondered about all those competition guys who start out with their guns fully loaded. Really, when will we see some of them wise up and start their stages in Condition 3? It's only an extra second or so to chamber a round. If you've got both hands free, of course. Why the heck do they need to shoot RIGHT NOW? Who doesn't have time to wait one more second?

But then again, that's competition. It's a lot more important to get an accurately placed shot on target quickly in competition than in real life. Self defense events happen slowly and with plenty of pre-warning. And there's no timer or score keeper, which is great because if you have to draw a gun to defend your life, you can't get points down for not being fast enough!

And I guess I could remove the magazine and top it off. But I've been shooting guns regularly for more than 30 years. 20 of those years were in the military also teaching the use of weapons. As someone sort of eluded to; if I can't hit my target with the 7 rounds that are in my magazine; I have no business shooting a gun. ... But leaving it chambered really isn't necessary unless you think you need that extra 1 bullet.

You know, that's a lot like my car. Now, I always fill up my car's tank all the way. But I'd HATE to find myself in an unexpected situation where I needed the last couple of gallons to make it to a gas station. I'd HATE to run out of gas. But I really wouldn't mind finding that I really needed that one last shot in a gun fight. I mean, it's one round. If a violent attacker happened to be high on narcotics that enabled him to continue an attack long enough to harm me or my family even though I'd made some good hits that would eventually prove lethal -- or if the stress of being violently attacked and having to shoot another human being happened to disturb my aim a bit -- and I really needed that last round? Well, I sure don't have any business even having TRIED to defend myself or my family. If I can't get the job done with six or seven rounds, whoo boy, I am worthless and deserve my fate!

I couldn't agree more, Christcorp.





-Sam
[P.S. -- No sarcasm was harmed in the making of the preceding statement.]

 

[TheVirginian]

Hi Sam,
While I agree that cocked and locked is definitely the fast road to putting holes in your target, I have to agree with christcorp that it isn't the only consideration and it isn't necessarily the highest priority either. I don't even carry, so maybe I'm the exception to the rule here. The only time that I do is if I am in a situation that I feel it would be immediately prudent and when in that situation, I go from no round chambered to cocked and locked as I enter that situation. It hasn't happened more than three times in a decade. Once in my home due to a "bump in the night" that scared the bejesus outta the wife and twice checking out my business for signs of forced entry.

It's not a matter of what is best for attacking a target, but what is best for practical self defense. Self defense can include defense from your own weapon. Statistically, it is known that many people are injured by their own guns or by those of their friends, neighbors, and loved ones. Most of the time it's accidental. Then there are times that bad guys are injured by good folks defending themselves. I'd not let the single idea that you might need a gun in a super hurry override the idea that someone may take the gun away from you or that you may drop it or get it snagged on something. An unchambered round is almost never going to go off in those much more likely scenarios. So waiting to chamber a round when it is needed may be safer than keeping one chambered when you don't, just in case.

I'm not gonna say that anyone is right or wrong here, just point out a few scenarios. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to debate what "safe carry" should be. I'd rather be safe than sorry in any situation but I don't see one rule being able to cover every situation. It isn't practical to try and work out every situation and be prepared for an attack or for an accident. It is hard to predict either and all we can do is to hedge our bets against both, without ignoring either.
-Bill

 

[Sam1911]

While I agree that cocked and locked is definitely the fast road to putting holes in your target, I have to agree with christcorp that it isn't the only consideration and it isn't necessarily the highest priority either.

No, that's not true. In carrying a defensive sidearm there are no higher priorities than accurately employing the weapon and engaging the threat. What else is it for? A door stop? A really uncomfortable toothbrush?

I don't even carry, so maybe I'm the exception to the rule here.

Ok. I accept that from your position, Christcorp's plan looks INFINITELY better. Not good. But better.

The only time that I do is if I am in a situation that I feel it would be immediately prudent and when in that situation

You carry a side arm when you DON'T expect trouble. If you DO expect trouble, stay home. Barring that, you carry a MUCH more effective weapon than a handgun.

It's not a matter of what is best for attacking a target, but what is best for practical self defense. Self defense can include defense from your own weapon. Statistically, it is known that many people are injured by their own guns or by those of their friends, neighbors, and loved ones. Most of the time it's accidental. Then there are times that bad guys are injured by good folks defending themselves. I'd not let the single idea that you might need a gun in a super hurry override the idea that someone may take the gun away from you or that you may drop it or get it snagged on something.

Thanks for quoting Sarah Bradey, Josh Sugarman, and the other slime that spread this non-sense. "Don't try to defend youself with a gun! The bad guy will take it away and kill you with it!"

I'd rather be safe than sorry in any situation but I don't see one rule being able to cover every situation. It isn't practical to try and work out every situation and be prepared for an attack or for an accident. It is hard to predict either and all we can do is to hedge our bets against both, without ignoring either.

One plan. Learn it, practice it, use it. Even if all you can trust yourself with is "Condition 3", for heaven's sake stick to it!

You don't have to try and "work out every situation." Have a gun, have it READY TO GO, and leave it in the holster until/unless you HAVE to use it RIGHT NOW. There. That's the plan. Applicable to all venues.

-Sam

 

[jaydubya]

When finished cleaning my Browning Hi Power after a range session, I insert a full 13-round magazine and trip the slide release to chamber a round (I used to 'slingshot' the slide, but at my age that is becoming hard to do). Then I withdraw the magazine and top it off, making a total of 14 rounds available. Then the pistol goes in my sock drawer as a HD weapon. As someone above mentioned, I frequently inspect the rounds in the magazine, retiring any that look 'different'. The ammo is standard pressure 9mm Speer 124 gr Gold Dots. I don't use the +p version because my HP is forty years old.

Cordially, Jack

 

[stana]

Carrying or storeing a SD handgun with an empty chamber, that is suppose to be ready to use. Is having just one more thing that can go wrong when TSHTF. Mine are always hot and have been since the beginning.

 

[green country shooter]

I put one round in a spare mag, insert it, rack. Remove mag. If the mag is empty, i know one is chambered. Now insert full mag.

Prevents me from ever thinking one is chambered when it failed to strip one off.

 

[kyo]

fill 2 up, put one in the gun, cock it, pull it out and top it off. put it back in.

 

[SHusky57]

if the gun is unsafe to keep in condition 1....

when you need it, what do you do? put it in condition 1.... why the extra step if you are going to condition 1 anyway? Is your gun going to go off in condition 1 with the safety on (if applicable as it is to 1911s and BHPs) or without a trigger pull? If no.... then what is the concern?

And again, I know this is somewhat off topic but.... to Christcorp...
as a civilian, your weapon must be concealed. If you are in one of those grey areas where you may need it instantly (most self-defense is less than 5 yards), but may not need it.... you're in a predicament. Chambering a round would be brandishing, and you can't do that if you aren't threatened for your life. If the gun is not ready to go, and you do need to draw, that 1/2 second might make a difference between the bad guy being on top of you (possible getting your weapon), between you failing to rack the slide, or not racking the slide correctly causing the gun to go out of battery.... lots of variables.

Can you mechanically make a 1911 discharge with a round in the chamber, finger off trigger, thumb safety on, and grip safety engaged? If the answer is no, then why the worry? Are you going to grip it, remove the thumb safety, and pull the trigger inadvertently?

 

[christcorp]

I guess a lot depends on how comfortable you are with your gun; how confident you are with your capabilities; and how calm you can remain.

As such; I have no need for a 9mm or a 40 that holds 10-15 rounds. I am quite comfortable at home with my Sig P220 45acp and 7 shots; or even my S&W Model 13 357mag revolver with 6 shots. Because I KNOW I will hit my target with all the rounds. Why do I know? Because I WON'T pull the trigger on what I don't plan on Killing. Some people will start blasting away at a shadow. Some will rationalize the criminal on Meth who can't be stopped by 7 rounds. Or they'll rationalize a "Gang" type war environment. This isn't Nam; or in my case Grenada, Panama, or Iraq.

As for confidence; for me, that ties in with being comfortable with my gun. I KNOW that I will hit what I aim at. It's that simple. In gun fights, robberies, and even when encountered by the police; it isn't uncommon to miss your target at 20 feet away. Adrenaline, heart beat, etc... can affect you a lot. But if you learn to control your emotions and fears, you don't need 15 rounds. You don't really need 7. Remember; you know your house a lot better than any criminal does.

I would say that the ONLY disadvantage to not having a round in the chamber 24/7 and left in the cocked and locked Condition 1 mode; is that there will be a sound when you chamber a round with the slide slamming forward. Ok; so the bad guy heard you. Guess what? If he heard you at all; (Even walking up/down stairs); chances are he's going to be leaving. So fine; he can leave. If he doesn't, then his heart beat and adrenaline will be racing KNOWING I have a gun. But chances are; if I was home; the sound he heard wouldn't be my Sig P220; it's be my Remington 870 12 gauge with a 3" magnum of 4 buck chambering. And he probably will crap his pants.

But it goes back to confidence in yourself and being comfortable with your gun. If you "Need" a round in the chamber and your gun cocked and locked, then have a nut. No one's stopping you. If you feel you need a 15 round clip; or you need to top off that clip; then have at it. Some of us don't. And personally; when I wear a coat or jacket; I carry my Sig P220. When it's warm or I'm going out where the Sig isn't practical; I have absolutely no problem with my Walther, FEG, or Tomcat 32 auto. Again; I KNOW I will hit what I aim at. And the 7-8 rounds in the clip are more than enough. But by all means, if you feel more comfortable with a cocked and locked 1911; or you feel you need a topped off 15 round 9mm; then that's what you probably need.

P.S. As for when carrying in public; I make sure I am very aware of my surroundings. I am confident I'm not going to be in the scenario you fear. And if I pull my weapon, it's not brandishing; because I WILL BE PULLING the trigger. Again; I know what I will be shooting at. I don't pull a gun to "Scare" someone.

P.S.S. The whole Condition 1 Cocked and Locked is basically about the 1911A1 and similar. MOST of the guns I use, don't have that issue because they are double action. But I still don't keep one in the chamber normally. Unless I feel the situation might require it.

 

[WardenWolf]

If you are shooting military surplus firearms, it is important to note that many are not capable of having a full magazine inserted on a closed bolt / slide. Because of this, full mag + 1 in the chamber is mutually exclusive with these guns. This is true of the Tokarev pistol, among others. This was done on purpose, as a matter of both safety and capacity, to ensure that the absolute maximum space available in the magazine was used and to ensure a loaded mag was not inadvertently inserted into a pistol that was supposed to be clear. You had to know what you were doing, as you had the thing locked open in the first place to insert the mag.

As stated before, you should load from the mag, not the chamber. Semi-automatics really were never designed for chamber loading.

 

[Rockwell1]

Never wrestle with a pig you'll only get yourself muddy and the pig will enjoy it.

1911 cond. 1 7+1
Because no plan survives initial contact with the enemy.

 

[jackstinson]

That depends upon the gun I am loading:
On most, I insert a full magazine, rack the slide to load, make sure the safety is on (and/or hammer down), drop the magazine out, top it off, and insert again....done.
On others (Beretta 950B, 21A & Taurus PT22), I insert a full magazine, flip up the barrel, insert a round into the chamber, flip the barrel back down...done.

 

[jackstinson]

Semi-automatics really were never designed for chamber loading.

That depends upon the particular gun. There are a few types/models, such as the Beretta and Taurus guns (and some others) with tip-up barrels, which were specifically designed for chamber loading.

 

[Bionicrooster]

Good post Christcorp,
I agree 100% on all counts (especially the shotgun for home defense part)

 

[kyo]

I have a decock/safety on mine. I have it fully loaded, put on the safety and the hammer goes back down. If I ever have to reach for it at night, all I do is let go of the safety and do a DA pull. I don't like making noise, I want to hear the noise the bad guy is making.

 

[Rockwell1]

I carried with an empty chamber for a while when I first started carrying (Army training). I sincerely believed that I could get a round chambered in time if I ever needed to, until the day I got jumped almost from behind in the Memorial Hospital parking lot. The bad guy was less than 6 feet from me when I saw him; the only thing that saved me was his recognition that I was drawing a firearm and the fact that my yelling caught the attention of Security.

I wonder what the bad guy thought when he opened my satchel and didn’t find anything but Tupperware and a banana.

 

[JohnBT]

"It takes LESS than 1 second to chamber a round."

Yes, if I don't fumble it, let the slide slip, have the round jam on the feed ramp, hit the mag release and dump it on the ground, etc. Too many variables to suit me. Mr. Murphy says, "Keep it simple."

I really like the FNP-45 I took delivery of Saturday. I have extra large hands and the big butt is a good fit and easier to hang on to than my Rohrbaugh. I hope I never need all 15 rounds in the mag, but the ammo shouldn't go bad sitting there. Interesting DA/SA gun; can be used cocked and locked or decocked and locked.

John