SS109 for Home Defense

[MCgunner]

I think you will find that the most respected defensive firearms instructors and experts will go with the carbine as well.

Experts, eh? Well, I'm no "expert", but I don't wanna kill the lady down the street, either. I know the law and I know I'm responsible for my rounds fired where ever they wind up.

You ever calculated the energy at the muzzle of a 12 gauge? I think it's plenty. Hell, I keep a 20 handy loaded with #3 buck. A load of that in the chest is worth 10 rounds of .223 FMJ. We're talking home defense here. It's not 100 yards across my living room, only about 15 feet. And, guess what, my shotgun is a twice pipe, a coach gun! Got nothing against pumps, but I just like it, handy little gun with a big bite and since I kill a LOT of birds with it, I sorta am familiar with it. No sights, don't need no stinkin' sights. You POINT a shotgun, not aim it. "Shoot where you look" is the popular term. Just a bead and a rib.

Nope, I'm no "expert", but I ain't risking killing innocents. I'm not a rich man. I know the shotgun will take care of the situation with minimal rounds fired, too. Fewer rounds, the less likelihood of an unintended victim. Of course, I also have a loaded .38 handy by the bed and I hit what I aim at. I ain't Jerry Miculek, but I can handle myself with it. I shot pretty well in IDPA. The shotgun is just the safe room gun. The door to the bedroom is locked. If someone wants in bad enough to break it down while I'm on the cell to 911, well, he get a load of buck in the chest at 10 feet. That ain't gonna be nuthin' nice. If I get surprised in the house during the day or in my shop, that's why I carry a CCW.

But, then again, my house ain't brick, ain't armored. It's wood, not hard to penetrate even with a frangiable rifle round.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Nope, I'm no "expert", but I ain't risking killing innocents

You didn't read the Ammo Oracle that I posted a link to did you.....

Most of what you say is simply untrue regarding proper 5.56 ammo like the 75gr TAP and the Mk262Mod1.

You POINT a shotgun, not aim it

#3 buck and you don't aim? You should go pattern that at about 15-20 feet sometime and see what you get. You sure as heck BETTER be aiming if you ever need it.

Shotguns are nice home defense weapons, but the fact is that if you look at all the arguments with an open mind the carbine has the advantage in most areas but if your home defense strategy is to just point the shotgun towards noise and hang on for the ride then you're not likely to benefit from the discussion anyway.

 

[possum]

even in tne case of body armor this is a reason for thr faliure to stop drills. some say 2 to the chest and then to the head, i play the game a little different i go 2 chest and then hit the pelvis if you take the trunk out the tree will fall!

You POINT a shotgun, not aim it

that is incorrect, i hate it when people make comments like that. you sir and anyone that believes the above needs to attend trainning focused on the shotgun and see what the fighting shotgun is all about. this will let you get more out of your shotgun than you ever thought possible.

 

[MCgunner]

#3 buck and you don't aim? You should go pattern that at about 15-20 feet sometime and see what you get. You sure as heck BETTER be aiming if you ever need it.

Have you ever done any bird or clays shooting? You don't have TIME to aim. The gun comes to your shoulder and you point, part of your body, and you fire. You need a good fitting gun and lots of trigger time to get to that point. Tacticool stocks don't help at all. I've killed literally THOUSANDS of birds in the last 40+ years with a shotgun. It's part of me. Oh, I've killed a lot of deer with a rifle, to. I know know how they work. I've put a lot of rounds down range. I've done a lot of squirrel hunting with a .22. I know which is faster to target for me. I never have to aim a shotgun, it points, it's fast. There isn't even a rear sight on the thing! No need! Yeah, I know about the pattern, I ain't an idiot, I'm 55 years old and have been shooting shotguns since the age of 7, rifles since the age of 6. I was raised with a rifle or shotgun in my hands. I went after squirrel, I took the rifle, rabbit, I took the shotgun, not just because of pattern, but the fact that the shotgun is quicker on target. At 30 feet on a rabbit, a .410 full choke pattern ain't that big. With a .22, I had to have time to get on the little buggers, align the sights. Nine times out of ten, they made it to cover before I could get on 'em. I grew up in the country and shot a LOT, about all I did for fun other than ride and race motorcycles.

There's a guy in Houston (would love to take his class) that cuts the sights off a daisy and shoots aspirins out of the air with it, claims he can easily teach that skill. It's all about shotgunning, though, calls it "shoot where you look". It ain't about aiming, it's about pointing the gun as part of your body, instinctive if you will.

Hell, I've shot clays uut of the air with a .22 rifle, too, but it's a lot easier with a shotgun. I missed a LOT with a .22 and the ground does most of the breaking. My uncle could hit an empty .22 case with his Browning .22 after he flipped it. I was always in awe of his skill. He taught me in my early years. I ain't no mall ninja, just a hunter that know what works best for him. All these ghost rings and pistol grips on shotguns just crack me up.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Have you ever done any bird or clays shooting? You don't have TIME to aim.

Have you ever done any self defense shooting? Or had any training?

Seriously, bird hunting and fighting for your life are not the same thing.

Wow.

 

[MCgunner]

My shotgun is just for blasting the guy that breaks down my bedroom door. I think I can handle it without mall ninja training. I watch these guys at the range tearing up the target boards running around with their tacticool stuff on and their tacticool shotguns. That's great if you wanna go to combat. Me, I just use the shotgun for bedroom duty. If I have to leave the room, it'll be with my handgun, easier to retain and I can shoot that pretty well, too. If I need the house cleared, there's 911, don't take long to dial. That's why I pay cops their salaries, other than to give me speeding tickets they need to earn their pay. I ain't riskin' my arse while they chat at the donut shop.

If I spend money on a course, it'll be that shoot where you look thing. I've always wanted to take that since I heard about it, but it's a bit expensive. Have daisy, have aspirin, have hack saw for sights, though. That course would really make you a better wing shot and I don't see how that can be a bad thing since that's really what I do with a shotgun. Never actually killed a man, hoping I don't have to.

 

[benEzra]

SS109/M855 penetrates less steel at close range than standard M193 ball, due to the lower velocity. It penetrates more at 600 yards, but only because it retains velocity better. Regarding Kevlar, civilian .223 jacketed hollowpoints (even 40-grain varmint hunting rounds) will penetrate any body armor that M855 will, i.e. anything up through NIJ Level IIIA. Level III hard armor will stop any civilian-legal .223/5.56x45mm. So using M855 gains him absolutely nothing, and costs him a lot in terms of terminal performance, increased chance of ricochet, and increased risk of overpenetration. Civilian .223 jacketed hollowpoints or softpoints provide better terminal performance than M855, penetrate body armor just as well, and penetrate far less in building materials.

 

[MachIVshooter]

As stated before, hard armor will stop any 5.56mm round, so I see no point in using steel core ammo. Standard ball or HP/poly tip.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

Not my first choice, but it would be better than many alternatives. I like M193 much better and that is not even the "best" choice.

 

[hamourkiller]

The 64gr WW Power Point will put paid on any BG's ticket.
If Body armor is a concern, get an M1 Garand and some black tipped armor piercing ammo.

 

[Frog48]

I keep mags of 55 gr. soft point.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I wouldn't pick SS109 for my first choice. Almost any rifle round will penetrate soft body armor and neither SS109 or any round you can purchase commercially in 5.56x45 will penetrate hard body armor.

My main concern with SS109 is that it performs pretty much like M193 (fragments about 75-85% of the time as long as velocity exceeds 2500fps); but SS109 has a much more complex bullet construction because of the silly 4gr steel penetrator. More complex construction means it is harder to produce the bullet consistently from lot to lot (especially for characteristics the military doesn't test on a lot to lot basis like terminal performance). The result is some lots of M855 (the U.S. ammo that meets the SS109 specification) do great on fragmentation and some don't. If you start throwing in other NATO variants of SS109, the results are even more diverse.

So my first question would be whose version of SS109 does he have? How many different lots? Has he tested the performance of the different lots in some type of medium?

Personally, I don't want to go through that hassle myself just to verify that there isn't any wild lot-to-lot variation in the defensive ammo, so I just go with commercially loaded stuff from companies with a good reputation for consistency.

For that matter, the only company I can think of that markets home defense ammo in .223 that relies on fragmentation as a wounding mechanism is Hornady. Federal's line uses a bonded soft point. Winchester's line uses a bonded soft point. Hornady also offers a bonded soft point and a ballistic tip. Is there anyone else marketing a specific defensive line of ammo that relies on frag for .223?

 

[doc2rn]

I prefer a 12g Moss 500 with broken glass shells. Destroys what it hits and turns to powder on hard surface for easy clean up.

 

[Timradcliffe345]

I prefer a 12g Moss 500 with broken glass shells.

What kinda loading (powder and load) you got for the 12ga?

 

[blackhawk2000]

The whole shotgun vs rifle debate aside....anyone who advises just pointing the gun, is nobody to take advise from.


This is not a thread for rifle vs. shotgun. We all know you shotgunners are wrong. The poster asked about a certain 5.56 ammo.

 

[sinistr]

ss109(m855)was first designed by the euros to not destablize,it wasn't an ap round. the 5.56 ap round is a s.l.a.p. round.it takes a vest threat level of 3 or higher to protect against a fmj .223 .it weighs usually between 15 and 20 lbs and is not concealable.the m855 defeats steel and other medium a little better than regular than fmj,not enough to get excited about.it will fragment unrelieably in glass.tell your friend to do a little research,and use some common sense for hd.

 

[lencac]

SS109 has a steel core and I know for a fact that at 400 yrds from my AR it goes almost 3/4 of the way through a 3/4 inch thick cold rolled steel plate

 

[MCgunner]

This is not a thread for rifle vs. shotgun. We all know you shotgunners are wrong. The poster asked about a certain 5.56 ammo.

You don't use a hammer to tighten a head bolt. There's a proper tool for the job. Just worried about the health of your innocent neighbors. I'm not just a "shotgunner". I shoot firearms, handguns, rifles, shotguns, black powder, cap and ball. Every tool has its best applications. I don't make cross canyon shots on mulies with my shotgun, and I don't use a high powered rifle in the house for defense with ANY load. Maybe a .22 rimfire, but I'll take my shotgun or my .38, thanks. I don't live in Baghdad.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Bad guys in armor are real low on my threat list. Actually, I don't think they are on my list at all..........

I don't like a 5.56 for SD due to overpenetration issues.

 

[TexasRifleman]

You don't use a hammer to tighten a head bolt. There's a proper tool for the job. Just worried about the health of your innocent neighbors

Seriously. You came into a thread where a guy was asking about a specific ammo loading and you posted to just "use a shotgun, you don't even have to aim those".

Any credibility you might have had left with that line.....

and I don't use a high powered rifle in the house for defense with ANY load

But many many people do, and they are not wrong for doing that. The trend over the last few years has been moving towards the carbine as a home defense weapon for many reasons. This "overpenetration" thing you warn against is simply not any different than a shotgun.

Check out this test at Box O Truth. Both XM193 ball ammo and buckshot overpenetrate to the extreme. BOTH of these would be bad choices of in home use given the result of this test.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm


Here is a test showing #4 Buck penetrating SIX sheets of sheetrock. What were you saying about your neighbors?

Also note the 3.5 inch shot pattern with this ammo. What were you saying about not aiming?

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Here's a pic from that thread, no aiming indeed.....

Nearly all of these Box O Truth tests and other tests show that popular home defense ammo will go through several walls, most still with enough energy to kill or seriously wound someone on the other side.

The idea is to minimize both the penetration and the damage done if it does happen. One thing Box O Truth cannot show is the energy remaining after 2, 3, 4 sheets of drywall so it's hard to know what kind of wound would be produced by these things after a few pieces of drywall. But, the fact that the projectiles penetrate that many should make people worry about their AIM more than anything else.

News flash: Shotguns with nearly any Buckshot penetrate about the same as 5.56 FMJ or soft point. Box O Truth has not tested the OTM style bullet like in the Hornady TAP or Mk262Mod0 ammo I recommended, but one could assume it would not be much different.

Law Enforcement agencies all over the country are abandoning the traditional wisdom of the combat shotgun in favor of the carbine by the way.

So the point, in the end, is like most things gun related. It is critical that you HIT WHAT YOU ARE SHOOTING AT.

For most people that DOES mean AIMING the gun, not pointing it at the door and hoping for the best.

You talk about the right tool for the job. It does appear if you believe your own eyes from the Box O Truth tests that a shotgun and carbine penetrate THE SAME AMOUNT so it then comes down to personal preference and more importantly what you shoot best.

But to say that a carbine is not as good a tool for home defense as a shotgun is just ignorance at work.

They are pretty much on equal footing as far as the overpenetration and aiming thing go.

 

[MCgunner]

You don't shoot a shotgun from the hip, ya know. You have a sight plane, called the rib. The bead is there for a reference. But, you don't align anything, you focus on the target, not the front sight and alignment as with rifle sights. The gun comes to your shoulder and you point down there rib. Fit is imprortant. But, you don't focus on anything ON the gun, but on the target. It is precise as any rifle sight at short, short range, ghost ring, aimpoint, whatever, and faster. Try it sometime. I can guarantee you if I can shoot 1 out of two on a good day on dove at out to 35 or 40 yards, I ain't gonna miss a stationary target at 10 feet. I shoot a lot, rifle and shotgun. Yeah, I know hunting ain't fighting, but shooting is shooting.

Use your rifles, no sweat off me. I'm glad I don't live next door, though. And, hey, I got less quarrel with pistol caliber carbines.

 

[TexasRifleman]

And, hey, I got less quarrel with pistol caliber carbines.

Really? Go look at some of the Box O Truth segments on those........
They tend to penetrate MORE than lots of the rifle rounds.

I'm telling ya sheetrock isn't much It is shocking how much goes through many layers of the stuff.

 

[woodybrighton]

ss109 is the standard round the uk military use
if he's expecting a visit from multiple bad guys with body armour and weapons claymores and running away is probably a better plan

 

[MCgunner]

ss109 is the standard round the uk military use
if he's expecting a visit from multiple bad guys with body armour and weapons claymores and running away is probably a better plan

LOL. Claymores strategically located, now THERE'S an idea. Don't forget the frag grenades. Lord only knows my .38 snubby ain't enough if my shotgun ain't. Where the HELL do you live that BGs in the latest hard body armor are a concern???? Just MOVE!

Really? Go look at some of the Box O Truth segments on those........
They tend to penetrate MORE than lots of the rifle rounds.

But, hey, if a 158 SWCHP will out-penetrate a 223 ss109 round, I got no serous concern. Matter of fact, why do I bother shooting hogs with a .308? I have a far superior .357 magnum carbine, loaded with .38 wadcutters, should out penetrate that .308, right? Think I'll see the 7 mag, no penetrating POS.

 

[salty]

SS 109 - aka green tip penetrator's. AR platform is not my first choice for apartment or typical burb's break-in home defense situation. Statistically most breakins will be at night - a 12 ga. pump in bedroom would be my choice for a night-time defense firearm. The first round a 7 1/2 followed by Dead Coyote hevi shot in 00 buck http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=972149. Day-time or more rural setting would be a different choice.