SS109 for Home Defense

[W.E.G.]

Not arguing, just talking about how, you think that.. thats all. we are talking about home defense and a longun with proper training isnt at anymore of a disatvantge.

in your home maybe it is to you....... in mine it isnt and to several others here it isnt either.

Try to remember what board this is. Gratuitously calling somebody you don't know an "amateur" is inappropriate in any civil discussion - even more so here. There are plenty of places where ad hominem is de rigeur. We like to think the absence of that behavior is what distinguishes this board.

Oh, and I'm really looking forward to hearing all your professional credentials.

 

[lencac]

Texas ... Wow you are so smart. Why didn't I figure that one out. Thanks dude for the FREE lesson .... you are now officially my new hero You are correct an anecdote is not data ... it is the facts of an event that were to show you an EXAMPLE that your assumtion may not be totally correct. But now I realize the error of my ways. After all I didn't realize I was talking to a super genius.
So in the spirit it was given I shall like give you one for free also
People + guns in the pocket = accidents. Cause that's what people do.
And do you really have a "Kal Tec" .... now isn't that special

 

[MCgunner]

lencac, TexasRifleman and I were having a perfectly civil off topic argument and you barge in with name calling? Your whole argument is lame and you call me ignorant, yet you don't even know me. I have a BS degree from a major Texas University, not totally illiterate, though I prefer to speak and type in slang. Heck, I've written for several regional motorcycle magazines, I can handle the king's English if I want to. AIN'T NO IDIOT, though I don't walk around trying to impress others with my intellect and educational accomplishments, such as they are. (the "AIN'T" and intentional double negative was just for your benefit)

Now, I have in the past taught handgun and rifle safety and marksmanship, was NRA certified for quite a while. Note to Texas, I never did get the shotgun certification. Ironic there, eh? I know how to safely handle firearms. If you don't, I suggest before you ever pick another firearm up, it is YOU that need the education.

On the pocket carry thing, if it's such a bad idea, why is it that ALL the major leather makers make pocket holsters???? Desantis, Sparks, Rosen, I mean, we're talking QUALITY and in some cases rather expensive leather designed to pocket carry. My revolver is not going to fire if it falls out of my pocket, would not do that if it fell square on its hammer, and of course there are hammerless models. I, too, have a Kel Tec I often pocket carry. I simply feel more comfortable with pocket carry than any other method, that's why I do it, why I have a snub revolver and a Kel Tec for carry and probably why I can carry 24/7 comfortably. Just thinking about it, the only time I've ever had a handgun fall to the floor when I went to the throne to take a dump was when it was in my 145 dollar Mitch Rosen Workman IWB. The thing is sewn at the bottom so as to be "tuckable" and will flop over when the belt is loosened and dropped. I never had a pocket gun fall out of its pocket holster to the floor, ever.

I had a cheap .25 once, always carried condition three (that's chamber unloaded if you don't know). It was a striker fired gun. If you are going to carry ANY handgun with ANY method, you owe it to yourself to LEARN HOW THE THING WORKS, the manual of arms. School yourself, take the training, it really helps. If you are still afraid of loaded firearms, sell all your weapons, join a baseball bat forum, and don't tell me how to carry my PDW.

Thank you very much.

 

[TexasRifleman]

People + guns in the pocket = accidents.

People + anything = the potential for accidents.

Your assertion is that pocket carry in and of itself is a more dangerous method of carry and you cannot prove that, since it isn't true. You cannot prove that legal, proper, concealed carry in a pocket is any more or less dangerous than any other type of carry.

You said that anyone that carries a firearm in their pocket is a gangbanger.

That would include many many members of this forum and you were out of line to do that.

MC Gunner and I disagree very much about this whole thing, but he has very valid points and it's perfectly fine for us to disagree.
That's how you're supposed to behave. I might call him crazy for his shotgun pointing but I think he knows I'm just giving him a hard time for it.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Texas ... Wow you are so smart. Why didn't I figure that one out. Thanks dude for the FREE lesson .... you are now officially my new hero You are correct an anecdote is not data ... it is the facts of an event that were to show you an EXAMPLE that your assumtion may not be totally correct. But now I realize the error of my ways. After all I didn't realize I was talking to a super genius.
So in the spirit it was given I shall like give you one for free also
People + guns in the pocket = accidents. Cause that's what people do.

You know, I looked through all of TR's posts and couldn't find one where he said dropping a handgun could not possibly result in a discharge. His point is one that most of us know well, and it is that the VAST majority of handguns will not fire when dropped as a function of design or passive safeties. Sure, some $65 pot metal .25 could (though you can't provide evidence that it actually happened), but I don't think any of us here who have gone through the nonsense to aqcuire a CCW are going to be carrying such junk guns.

There is nothing wrong with pocket carry, and the K-T pistol TR has is drop safe, as are other quality handguns designed for CCW.

For hard armor you will need real deal AP, some surplus '06 might work but the legalities begin to get fuzzy.

Actually, the plates are, in fact, rated to stop at least one hit from AP 7.62 NATO or .30-06. Pretty tough stuff.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Actually, the plates are, in fact, rated to stop at least one hit from AP 7.62 NATO

Yes that would be a tough plate, I have some of the '06 black tip stuff and it's pretty potent. To stop it would be impressive. I've shot it through some things I thought would hold up for sure.

I think that .308 AP is illegal to possess if I remember right. Seems like only '06 is OK for some reason. Like most of these laws they make little rational sense.

 

[MCgunner]

Pointing with a shotgun properly is still aiming, you just don't have front and rear sights to line up. You are right in that you still have to aim, but pointing with a shotgun is essentially the same thing at close range. You just have to teach and practice it like any other aiming.

Yeah, perhaps the lingo is confusing here. Have you ever tried to shoot clays with a Savage 24V with rifle sights? Boy, you talk about messed up! LOL I call what I do with a shotgun "pointing'. This is how it was taught to me. As I said before, you don't have sights. You have a bead for reference, but you don't concentrate on it, you look beyond it and the rib to the target. Your concentration with a rifle is on the front sight, then sight alignment, then back to the front sight while the target is blurred. With a shotgun, the gun comes up autonomically, your eyes focus on the target while you are looking down the rib, but it's not consciously AIMING in that you aren't aligning anything. Ergo, you are "pointing" the gun and concentrating on the target. It's a much faster method of sighting as there really is no "sight acquisition" and it is quite precise at home defense ranges, enough that if you had your rifle fitted as a shotgun and took the sights off and installed a vent rib (don't even need a bead, just there for a reference as I say), you would have the same quick target acquisition and precision indoors with it that you have with your 12.

No, I'm NOT shooting from the hip, if that's where the confusion lies. I have no pistol grip on my coach gun, regular field stocks that I'm used to for wing shooting. And, I still say tossing FMJ around the house in a neighborhood or apartment at 3 times the speed of sound is what's nuts. Get a pistol carbine and load with Magsafe or Glasier if you don't like shotguns. There, I ALMOST got back on topic, almost.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I have no pistol grip on my coach gun, regular field stocks that I'm used to for wing shooting.

To totally change the subject here, are you really comfortable with only 2 rounds?

 

[MCgunner]

Yep, for safe room duty. I ain't goin' to combat and I have my .38 by my side if it's some mad, drug crazed biker gang on dust or something. I could load my .45 and keep that handy, but I wouldn't want someone on this board to call me paranoid or something. Actually, I just don't feel the need. I hit what I POINT at. BWAAAA, ha, ha!

 

[TexasRifleman]

I hit what I POINT at

Of that I have no doubt

Hell maybe THAT is why I like having 30 rounds in my HD gun

 

[BAT1]

I still have a 1000 ss 109. My bushy loves it. 1" groups at 100. Great for perimeter protection. Soft Points for closer work. But seriously, get a shot gun.

 

[Soybomb]

I believe that if you were to check stats far more people suffer gun shot wounds from accidental causes in the home than from intruders.

I'd recommend more research for you, the methodology used in that study was beyond flawed.

 

[woodybrighton]

probably more "untrained" people have negligent discharges than people who got training regularly shoot and know what there doing

all the child kills child stories tend to come form unsecured weapons owned by people who don't shoot regularly

 

[W.E.G.]

I think that .308 AP is illegal to possess if I remember right. Seems like only '06 is OK for some reason.

from
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIG1.html

I find comment #2 to be quite interesting.
"2) AP ammo is the bullets ONLY, not the loaded ammo, although ATF has
identified some AP ammo by the loaded ammo, not projectiles, for the
information of FFL dealers, who are not supposed to "willfully"
transfer AP ammo.
>From this it follows that loading the bullets identified above into
completed rounds does not constitute "making" AP ammo; making the
bullets themselves does."

Read the law for yourself, and make your own conclusions. To my knowledge, the courts have not decided a case resulting in a ruling contrary to the rec.guns analysis.

 

[lencac]

MC and Texas my most humble apologies, really. I do get carried away at times. But in all seriousness it's not the folks like yourselves that scare me. It's the ego driven person who has taken a 10 cent class and now has a CCW. I carried for many years and I used a looped holster on my belt. But that's just me. I don't carry now. No particular reason just decided I didn't need to. The baseball bat thing was intended all tongue in cheek. I don't even have loaded guns in the house. I guess I'm just not that worried about having that type of situation arising. So thanks for your imput and if you ever see me on the street feel free to give me a swift kick in the ass
P.S. Do you know of any baseball bat forums

 

[collateral]

Tell your friend to stop breaking the law and then he wont have to worry about a swat team tracking him down.

 

[MCgunner]

No problem, lencac, we all get carried away sometimes. Well, I reckon the threat level has something to do with one's attitude. Now, Texas stalks his house with a 30 round AR. In Dallas, hell, maybe that's warranted. LOL! Me, I live in a small coastal town with a lot of white and brown trash in county. But, I don't feel anything a 20 gauge coach gun loaded with number 3 bucks and my PDW of the day can't handle. I don't feel at high threat, but things have happened around here to assure me I need to be armed. Now, I heard about a store getting robbed on consecutive nights in Houston. First night guy killed a customer, second night no killing, but an armed robbery never-the-less. Guy interviewed says they walk down the road with guns there. HPD is way short of personel. Then there is this story about a convenience store. Rely on an alarm company? Hire an armed guard (he slept through he friggin' robbery. Yeah, whatever, if you live in an area like that and want it done right, you'd best do it yourself. Don't rely on someone else or gov'ment hoes for your protection. If I lived there, I'd have pocket back up, ankle back up, and a .45 or .357 magnum on my hip at all times. Around here, I mostly just pocket carry, not so much action in the neighborhood. If I lived out in the mountains of New Mexico on a ranch or something, I might not be armed most of the time. Just all in where you live.

http://www.click2houston.com/news/14960205/detail.html

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

I'd recommend more research for you, the methodology used in that study was beyond flawed.

Yep, like including people who commit suicide with their firearms (In Japan they cannot own firearms so they just hang themselves)... or including many situations such as drug deals gone bad... It was not just flawed, it was intentionally skewed to mislead people.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Now, Texas stalks his house with a 30 round AR. In Dallas, hell, maybe that's warranted.

Dude, if I was going into Dallas I'd take a hell of a lot more with me than that

 

[Timradcliffe345]

Dude, if I was going into Dallas I'd take a hell of a lot more with me than that

I didnt realize DALLAS was that bad...

 

[MCgunner]

Dude, if I was going into Dallas I'd take a hell of a lot more with me than that

OH, man, my bad. I have a friend from Ft Worth, told someone in front of him he was from Dallas and I thought he was going to kick my butt. LOL! Seems to be some rivalry up there. All the same to me, somewhere up there about 7 hours north. I only go up there when I HAVE to, but I can say the same for Houston, even Victoria.