SS109 for Home Defense

[W.E.G.]

Any long gun is a poor first choice for ordinary home defense.

Long guns require both hands.

Long guns require much more space in which to maneuver.

You're in the hallway with your rifle facing north. The threat suddenly appears two paces behind you from the south.

You're dead.

 

[lencac]

I shoot firearms, handguns, rifles, shotguns, black powder, cap and ball.

Jack of all trades ........ master of none.

 

[MCgunner]

Jack of all trades ........ master of none.

Pretty much.

Any long gun is a poor first choice for ordinary home defense.

Long guns require both hands.

Long guns require much more space in which to maneuver.

You're in the hallway with your rifle facing north. The threat suddenly appears two paces behind you from the south.

You're dead.

I thoroughly agree! My shotgun is by the bed, the bedroom door being always locked (have to remind the wife of that time to time, get angry, start a fight, whatever it takes). It's the safe room strategy. I can roll over, grab the shotgun, if the guy is so determined he breaks the door in, he's dead. I don't intend to go out and confront him, that's what 911 is for. However, I've investigated bumps in the night with my .38. It's a snub, about as grab proof as possible (not grab PROOF, but far easier t retain than a long gun).

For the mall ninjas, what did the tunnel rats in Nam use? Did they take their M16s into those tunnels or did they have a .45 or, gasp, a shotgun? Usually a guy on point with a .45 and a back up with a shotgun is what I've heard. No direct experience, turned draft age when the war was winding down. Being six foot one, I wouldn't have been rat material anyway. And, the tunnel rats weren't overly concerned with over-penetration.

 

[TexasRifleman]

For the mall ninjas, what did the tunnel rats in Nam use?

If the hallways in your house are the size of Viet Cong tunnels you should sell all your guns and get a better job first.

This has turned just plain silly at this point.

 

[lencac]

I have to admitt that IF someone were to breakin I would have to beat them to death with the baseball bat next to my bed cause as a rule I don't keep any loaded firearms in the home. I believe that if you were to check stats far more people suffer gun shot wounds from accidental causes in the home than from intruders. This is just my rule. The best home defense is prevention in the form of being stealthy and being smart in these types of matters.

 

[MCgunner]

If the hallways in your house are the size of Viet Cong tunnels you should sell all your guns and get a better job first.

Two bedrooms, one bath, 1000 sq feet. No, it ain't much, but it's paid for and I retired from plant/shift work while I was still alive and before it could kill me. I ain't goin' back! Ain't got no Jones' to beat. Ain't rich, don't care. I get the bills paid and I can go hunting or fishing any old time I want. Some things just can't be bought. Hey, lots of people live in a car or under a bridge. It could be worse, ya know. But, no, it's not a 350 yard shot across my living room.

lencac, Sarah Brady give you those statistics? Me, I ain't worried, I ain't scared, or I'd join HCI and rely on the police for my security, but then, if I call THEM, I've got a good chance of being shot by the Police . My .38 trumps any baseball bat. It and my shotgun are the only guns out and loaded and I have control of 'em. I'm 55 years old, ain't raising a family at this point.

My .38 is in my pocket right now. I carry it 24/7. Am I paranoid? Is it going to jump out of my pocket and shoot me? I don't know, what I do know is with my luck, the minute I lock it up, that's when I'll need it. I didn't go though all that class stuff for a CCW to leave my .38 locked up.

 

[Timradcliffe345]

I believe that if you were to check stats far more people suffer gun shot wounds from accidental causes in the home than from intruders.

If you have training, plenty of practice and educate your household members on the proper use, storage and safety of firearms then you dont have to be part of those statistics. Be smart about it. And dont become a victim.

 

[lencac]

lencac, Sarah Brady give you those statistics?

No, Sarah Brady did not give me that stat. Being your retired with all that free time why don't you show me you are a better researcher than you type and speak the English language and tell me that my guess at that stat "ain't " wrong. Do you have green teef too.

Am I paranoid?

Obviously YES

Is it going to jump out of my pocket and shoot me?

No, but it may fall out of your pocket and kill someone else. Intellegent people who are serious about having a concealed/carry handgun don't have them "in their pocket". You are a hazard!
Once you get done TRYING to prove your machoman you may find your brain in your other pocket and put it back between your ears and USE IT!!!!

 

[TexasRifleman]

Being your retired with all that free time why don't you show me you are a better researcher than you type and speak the English language and tell me that my guess at that stat "ain't " wrong

You mean lies, damn lies and statistics?

Your whole basis of how the world works is because of a guess at some statistics?

Intellegent people who are serious about having a concealed/carry handgun don't have them "in their pocket". You are a hazard!

What in the world are you talking about? I carry a Kel Tec in my pocket damn near all the time. It's a perfectly reasonable method of concealed carry. The Desantis Nemesis holster works well enough for that. Many many people pocket carry and it works very well.

No, but it may fall out of your pocket and kill someone else.

What planet are you on?

 

[blackhawk2000]

I love it. There's no room to manuever a rifle, but there's plenty of room to swing a bat. SG's don't need to be aimed. Pistols are easier to retain in the event of a gun grab. SG ammo penatrates less than .223. Blah blah blah.


You don't know, what you don't know is a very good theme for this thread.

 

[Timradcliffe345]

I think Ive heard and seen it all in this thread. The consensus seems to be that SS109 is just as good as defeating soft armor as regular M193 is. Since 5.56 AP is impossible to come by Im not sure what Ill tell my friend. Perhaps he should go the 308 or 30.06 route. I know 30.06 AP is still available, not so sure about 308 AP. What defeats hard armor, and comes in a compact enough package for HD?

 

[TexasRifleman]

I know 30.06 AP is still available, not so sure about 308 AP. What defeats hard armor, and comes in a compact enough package for HD?

Depends on the state now, most states have laws surrounding AP ammo but they are kinda off the wall.

Texas for example limits AP ammo, but Texas law defines AP as being able to be fired from a handgun, so that's kinda wacky.

For hard armor you will need real deal AP, some surplus '06 might work but the legalities begin to get fuzzy.

'06 AP is about all I see being sold anymore.

 

[Wes Janson]

Any long gun is a poor first choice for ordinary home defense.

Long guns require both hands.

Long guns require much more space in which to maneuver.

You're in the hallway with your rifle facing north. The threat suddenly appears two paces behind you from the south.

You're dead.

Why is the threat suddenly appearing from the direction I just came from? Is one of my family members an enemy plant? Taken to the logical end, we should be worried about burglers dropping in through the ceiling, blasting through walls, and tunneling up through the floor? Screw that-99.9% of possible threats are going to be someone coming through a window or a door. And half a dozen rounds of 5.56 out of a 16" barrel at 10 feet are going to solve 99.9% of problems one will encounter. If by some chance you get unlucky, and wind up victim to that 0.1% graboid attack through the floor, then you have my sincere sympathy, and I promise to avenge you with dynamite-loaded RC cars.

 

[BOONER]

Any long gun is a poor first choice for ordinary home defense.

Long guns require both hands.

Long guns require much more space in which to maneuver.

You're in the hallway with your rifle facing north. The threat suddenly appears two paces behind you from the south.

You're dead.

Amature hour strikes again

maybe your advice should stay in your house.
cause you are Dead wrong .
the lack of which you handle the situation will get you dead not choice of weapon.

if you by your own admission, allow yourself to walk past and unsecured unchecked room.... then thats your fault..

and to compare tunnel rats and homeowners 40 years apart and the amount of current up to date training that is out there that sets these apart.

:banghead:killed

 

[BOONER]

and the true load you would want would cvary as well but the real load since those of you here keep talking about 262 ammo is this one

Mk 262 Mod 1, not the 262 Mod 0 the big differance is th e mod 1 has a canalure to prevent set back in combat hards use guns and it is actually losuy against intermediate barriers.

 

[taliv]

I have to admitt that IF someone were to breakin I would have to beat them to death with the baseball bat next to my bed cause as a rule I don't keep any loaded firearms in the home. I believe that if you were to check stats far more people suffer gun shot wounds from accidental causes in the home than from intruders. This is just my rule. The best home defense is prevention in the form of being stealthy and being smart in these types of matters.

might i suggest keeping a kevlar blanket handy, so that if someone with a gun does invade your home, you can throw that over them and then beat them with your bat at your leisure, since they won't be able to shoot you through the blanket.

someone in the National Guard Special Forces gave me that tip

 

[Timradcliffe345]

might i suggest keeping a kevlar blanket handy, so that if someone with a gun does invade your home, you can throw that over them and then beat them with your bat at your leisure, since they won't be able to shoot you through the blanket.

Seems like a great way of getting killed...

 

[W.E.G.]

If you guys can't figure out how you might not have 100% control over the
direction of approach of a threat, I'm not going to argue about it with you here.

Besides, why would you professionals want to ARGUE on the internet with an "amateur???"
I'm not worthy.

Page three of a thread on a firearms web site is always a dangerous place to be.
Some things never change - even on The High Road.

 

[lencac]

Texas, Here's a true srory. Guy goes to the restroom at a poolhall I was in. He has a 25 auto in his pants pocket. He drops his drawers in the stall, the gun falls out, hits the tile, goes off and shoots himself in the hand. I live on planet earth. Don't try to tell me that a handgun in the pocket can't be accidently dropped. Hell, they still blow-up space shuttles. That's cause - - - - happens. So don't tell me that a loose pistol in the pocket can't have a problem. You know who carries guns in their pockets .... gangbangers ... that's who ... you know tough guys, machomen, studs, cool dudes, badasses. Are you a badass? So I ask you then Mr. Texas what planet do you live on?
By the way my real home defense has fur, four paws, weighs 110lbs. and has really big teef

 

[TexasRifleman]

Texas, Here's a true srory. Guy goes to the restroom at a poolhall I was in.

Life lesson for you, free of charge:

"Anecdote" does not equal "Data"

You'll probably have to find someone to explain to you what that means, but I suspect you have plenty of time.

You just called me and many other members of this forum "gangbangers" because we properly, and appropriately, choose to carry our legal firearms concealed in a pocket.

 

[BOONER]

If you guys can't figure out how you might not have 100% control over the
direction of approach of a threat, I'm not going to argue about it with you here.

Besides, why would you professionals want to ARGUE on the internet with an "amateur???"
I'm not worthy.

Page three of a thread on a firearms web site is always a dangerous place to be.
Some things never change - even on The High Road.

Not arguing, just talking about how, you think that.. thats all. we are talking about home defense and a longun with proper training isnt at anymore of a disatvantge.

in your home maybe it is to you....... in mine it isnt and to several others here it isnt either.

 

[stormyone]

Life lesson for you, free of charge:

"Anecdote" does not equal "Data"

You'll probably have to find someone to explain to you what that means, but I suspect you have plenty of time.

Ouch! Thats going to leave a mark!

 

[MechAg94]

I don't have long hall ways in my house. Just 3 bedrooms off the living room center. If I started walking through the house, it wouldn't be that hard for someone to get behind me if they were quiet/hidden. A pistol and a knife are what I would choose for moving around. The other advantage of a rifle is it can be a club also (depending on the rifle).

On the original question: I would recommend Hornady TAP or other self defense/soft point ammo also. M193 if he really must have the armor piercing capability. I was thinking that testing has shown that buckshot penetrated least, but that .223 actually did better than a lot of pistol ammo. I think it deflected a lot more at least.

How would shotgun slugs work against body armor?

 

[MechAg94]

I think some of you are being a bit hard on MCgunner. Almost to the point of being "aiming snobs".

Pointing with a shotgun properly is still aiming, you just don't have front and rear sights to line up. You are right in that you still have to aim, but pointing with a shotgun is essentially the same thing at close range. You just have to teach and practice it like any other aiming.

Honestly, if someone is standing across the room from you with a gun or knife, how many of you are going to line up the front and rear sights before shooting? How many of you will simply line up the gun, look down the barrel and shoot? Or simply point from the hip and shoot?

I have seen a number of instructors and tactics people who say the best stance for close in defense shooting is the pistol at your hip (not stuck out in front of you) with you other arm in a guard position, but clear of the gun. It is possible to practice firing from the hip or by simply pointing the gun. You can actually be fairly accurate at across the room distances. I have done it some at the range. A shot gun or a levergun (as I have depended on for HD at times) would point better than a handgun. I guess it really depends on the situation.

Regardless of your opinions on the subject, you still need to practice at your chosen tactics/stance so you know you can execute them if needed. It sounds to me like MCgunner has done so. Remember, we are talking between gun owners and shooters here. We aren't talking about instructing non-shooters in self defense. That is a whole nother deal to me.

 

[KC&97TA]

I have 2 mags of 25 rounds, in the house and 'several' in the garage loaded at the ready of this horrible green tip M885 SS109... tungsten core penetrator, able to breach level 3 body armor, couldn't stop a field mouse I'm told by some, can shoot through 4" of armored personel carriers I'm told by others.

Why? I've put it to use on Tango's big, small, wearing body armor or not even wearing shirts, I've shot it through car doors, front doors, I've shot it at point blank and at 750m, the stuff works and it works great. It has it's short falls, pcp junkies may require a few more shots than teenage cat burglars, it won't knock a man off his feet like Grandpa said the M1 Grand would in Korea. I'm sure there are more than a few souls with Allah, that will speak about it's effectiveness.