5.56 Home Defense Ammo
- Thread starter CGRifleman
- Start date
- Status
GoTigers,
Roll Tide. Yes, the US military now only issues M193 for training. This is due to a lack of penetration of hard barriers at distance.
If you're going to use a data point, it's a good idea to understand it, first.
John
Roll Tide. Yes, the US military now only issues M193 for training. This is due to a lack of penetration of hard barriers at distance.
If you're going to use a data point, it's a good idea to understand it, first.
John
Buzznrose
Member
2 Akitas! Thinking that's a dang good layer...
C-grunt
Member
Look just behind his thumb. The rifle has a rear sight like an AK.
Last edited by a moderator:
C-grunt
Member
I have seen that, especially with a head shot. But I use to shoot people for a living with the cartridge.
You do know that a good 223 load doesn't just poke 22 caliber holes right?
I understand it completely. M193 is a terrible self defense choice compared to modern 223/556 cartridges. I really don't get your point. My point was to point out that m193 is a poor choice. That is what I said in my earlier post and the quote and link was just info for others make up their own mind.
gotigers said:
My point was refuting a false statement. The US military abandoned the M193 because it was a poor penetrator of hard barriers at distance, not (as you insinuate in the post in question, and state outright elsewhere) because it doesn't perform well on tissue. Yes, there are other rounds I might choose first, but since I am not trying to penetrate a steel helmet at 800 meters inside my apartment, I know the M193 is still a fine choice.
John
Using M193 only in training, isn't a rousing endorsement. Does .mil use M193 outside of training?
M193 has unpredictable yaw characteristics and a long cavity neck.
hit this link and look for "Why not M193/M855?"
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.223
Most experts disagree. However, M193 is better than an empty mag and it is good for practice.
Edit: It is better than an empty mag. No hard feelings. I am moving on, away from the .....measuring contest.
M193 has unpredictable yaw characteristics and a long cavity neck.
hit this link and look for "Why not M193/M855?"
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.223
Most experts disagree. However, M193 is better than an empty mag and it is good for practice.
Edit: It is better than an empty mag. No hard feelings. I am moving on, away from the .....measuring contest.
Last edited:
As I have said twice so far, the US adopted the M855 because it penetrates barriers (specifically, steel helmets) better. For military work, more penetration is usually good. You can try to make the history of the M855 about something other than the developments surrounding the M16A2, but you'll be inventing history.
I hate having to spell out the obvious, but Joe Homeowner usually is not looking for enhanced barrier penetration at long ranges when he selects home defense ammunition.
"Most experts disagree."
Really? All the experts agree birdshot is a terrible choice for home defense. I challenge you to list just several well-respected firearms experts who have said M193 isn't perfectly adequate for close-range SD/HD. If "most" experts agree, this should only take you a few minutes.
John
I hate having to spell out the obvious, but Joe Homeowner usually is not looking for enhanced barrier penetration at long ranges when he selects home defense ammunition.
"Most experts disagree."
Really? All the experts agree birdshot is a terrible choice for home defense. I challenge you to list just several well-respected firearms experts who have said M193 isn't perfectly adequate for close-range SD/HD. If "most" experts agree, this should only take you a few minutes.
John
Deer_Freak
Member.
All the comparisons have been 5.56 vs buckshot. Not everyone loads their shotgun with buckshot. People have actually used a shotgun for hunting and a few have used it in combat. A single 1 oz slug is enough to stop any attacker no matter what drugs he has taken. In CQC situations buckshot is going to make a pattern about the size of the palm of your hand. You have to aim buckshot just as precisely as a slug. A slug in CQC situations has about as much energy as a 30-06.
You can hem and haw all you want but no 5.56 x 45 load even comes close to the slug as a man stopper.
Last but not least one must prove their words are not a pile of bull manure.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_slugs.htm
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/Outdoors/resource/remington_charts/slubkbal.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1Vi53WolsU
You can hem and haw all you want but no 5.56 x 45 load even comes close to the slug as a man stopper.
Last but not least one must prove their words are not a pile of bull manure.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_slugs.htm
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/Outdoors/resource/remington_charts/slubkbal.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1Vi53WolsU
I much prefer a full-power Foster slug to buckshot, though of course good .223 is more than sufficient for home defense.
Your last sentence isn't very understandable. "Their" who? The writers and reviewers you mention, or someone opining in this thread?
John
Your last sentence isn't very understandable. "Their" who? The writers and reviewers you mention, or someone opining in this thread?
John
mastiffhound
Member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2011
- Messages
- 420
I won't argue that 00 buck is a bad choice, but I won't say M193 is either. I use fragmenting 55gr Noslers, I'm not perfect and I know I could miss.
Here is a much shorter video on M193, Watch it and then tell me it won't do the job:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOYPxiRldaE.
Here is 12 gauge 3" mag 00 buck:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOYPxiRldaEwww.youtube.com/watch?v=LNBFS3HWoIU.
After watching both, I pick M193. Pause the M193 at 18 seconds and the 00 buck at 30. Why M193? I can get a follow-up much quicker in case I miss. At room distances(15 feet or so) 00 doesn't spread much, yes you can miss. It's not like in the movies when the good guy shoots a shotgun at 20 feet and mows down all the bad buys in a 20 foot square area. Watch both and tell me what you would pick.
Here is a much shorter video on M193, Watch it and then tell me it won't do the job:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOYPxiRldaE.
Here is 12 gauge 3" mag 00 buck:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOYPxiRldaEwww.youtube.com/watch?v=LNBFS3HWoIU.
After watching both, I pick M193. Pause the M193 at 18 seconds and the 00 buck at 30. Why M193? I can get a follow-up much quicker in case I miss. At room distances(15 feet or so) 00 doesn't spread much, yes you can miss. It's not like in the movies when the good guy shoots a shotgun at 20 feet and mows down all the bad buys in a 20 foot square area. Watch both and tell me what you would pick.
HorseSoldier
Member
Approximately +1 million or so to JShirley's expressed sentiments. M193 has killed mountains of people through the years. For an engagement at home defense ranges, I'd have zero reservations about going into it with an AR loaded with 193.
Quite frankly, for 5.56mm at legally defensible home defense ranges, these bullet selection threads usually tend to be just so much pointless navel gazing. At that range the 5.56mm weapons are proven fight stoppers, pretty much regardless of what you feed them. The bigger failure points in the engagement criteria and the human elements -- both in terms of having the mindset to really pull the trigger on another human being and in terms of being able to mentally get back ahead of the power curve on what may be incredibly reactive scenarios initially (i.e. wake from a sound sleep at 3 AM to intruders in the house, etc).
Quite frankly, for 5.56mm at legally defensible home defense ranges, these bullet selection threads usually tend to be just so much pointless navel gazing. At that range the 5.56mm weapons are proven fight stoppers, pretty much regardless of what you feed them. The bigger failure points in the engagement criteria and the human elements -- both in terms of having the mindset to really pull the trigger on another human being and in terms of being able to mentally get back ahead of the power curve on what may be incredibly reactive scenarios initially (i.e. wake from a sound sleep at 3 AM to intruders in the house, etc).
303 hunter
Member
I use Nosler 55 gr ballistic tips. Explosive expansion, minimal penetration.
Well, since you guys like Brass Fetchers' videos and the AR15, I'll just leave this little gem right here.
Enjoy....
P.S. Feel free to grab a cold one and crank it to 11
http://youtu.be/dFucrB-Vpj8
Enjoy....
P.S. Feel free to grab a cold one and crank it to 11
http://youtu.be/dFucrB-Vpj8
Even a 12 gauge slug is not a guaranteed stop. (neither is 5.56 or even .308 of course)
The issue with a 12 gauge slug for HD, for many people, is excessive penetration through multiple walls/rooms. It also 'suffers' from the same negatives as 12 gauge buckshot, that being capacity and recoil, primarily, compared to a carbine.
Your (wrong) opinion was this:
This is wrong. It's not something where our opinions can vary. What you said there is simply wrong.
Nope.
Brand specific? What are you talking about?
There is nothing brand specific about specifying a heavy OTM bullet. It doesn't even have to be 75gr, that is just the most common. Lots of 69-77gr OTM/BTHP bullets to choose from out there, made by tons of manufacturers.
That is what I believe to be the most effective choice available for HD purposes, and is exactly the same as specifying 00 buck for the shotgun.
Apples to apples comparison, that's all it is.
Also, as discussed above, you can get solid performance from many other cartridges. I know plenty of people who put your standard run of the mill M193 or M855 into their defensive carbines. At close range out of a 16" or longer barrel, it should be pretty darn good.
I have never heard of or seen pieces fly off a human body after being hit with a .223, but have seen several autopsy photos and several eyewitness accounts of that happening with the 12 Gauge Shotgun.
allaroundhunter
Member
No, no it is not "just as effective". Could it work? Sure. But comparing 25 rounds of .22 LR to 30 rounds of .223/5.56 is either stubborn, foolish, or ignorant of factual evidence.
allaroundhunter
Member
You said it is "just as effective" which is flat wrong. You know what else kills? Water. Is it just as good, too?
LeonCarr
Member
Nathan,
If you read the previous posts several people have made it known that they don't know the difference between opinion and fact.
I for one will not stand in front of a 10/22 loaded with 25 CCI Stingers. That is a fact.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
If you read the previous posts several people have made it known that they don't know the difference between opinion and fact.
I for one will not stand in front of a 10/22 loaded with 25 CCI Stingers. That is a fact
.Just my .02,
LeonCarr
allaroundhunter
Member
Maybe some people need to understand what "just as effective" means... Or maybe just completely read and comprehend a post so as to understand what it actually says.
I never said that I wouldn't stand in front of it, or even that I wouldn't use it.
I never said that I wouldn't stand in front of it, or even that I wouldn't use it.
- Status
