Steel ammo (Wolf) for my DPMS?
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christcorp
Member
It isn't going to wear any faster than normal.
Sport45
Member
I haven't had any problems at all running Wolf and Tula through either of my AR's or a M1 Carbine. It might be dirtier than some other stuff but I don't clean often enough to tell. As far as warranty goes, most of them say no warranty if you use reloaded ammunition. That doesn't stop me either. 
Over any gun's lifetime I figure to spend much more feeding it than the gun is worth. I don't worry about ammo related warranties. If it breaks, I fix it.
Over any gun's lifetime I figure to spend much more feeding it than the gun is worth. I don't worry about ammo related warranties. If it breaks, I fix it.
Ramone
Member
Before going with steel cased ammo ($.29/round) I'd consider Federal Lake City XM855 ($.36/round)
I figure that's less than $20.00 difference per day at the range, and it's more accurate, more consistent, reloadable, and IMX significantly cleaner.
I figure that's less than $20.00 difference per day at the range, and it's more accurate, more consistent, reloadable, and IMX significantly cleaner.
W.E.G.
Member
I've had bad luck with Wolf in both of my AR-15's.
After about one magazine, it starts short-cycling until a case seizes in the chamber, and the extractor rips the rim off.
On top of that, its underpowered.
Don't use it.
One is a full-length Armalite A2 with standard rifle buffer (chamber appears to be chrome - cannot say for sure about the bore).
Other is a Chrome-lined J&T-sourced 10.5 SBR with H2 buffer (rips rims with, and without, the Gemtech HALO suppressor).
After about one magazine, each rifle starts short-cycling until a case seizes in the chamber, and the extractor rips the rim off.
Neither of my guns are problematic with quality BRASS-CASED ammunition.
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Seriously, you can try some of that stuff in your rifle if you want.
I recommend that you load three mags each with 20 rounds.
Fire the first mag quickly without pausing.
If the gun has not choked by the end of the first mag, quickly insert the second mag.
Quickly fire 10 rounds from the second mag.
Cease fire.
Wait one minute try to fire the next shot (shot #11 second mag).
If the gun has not choked yet, fire four more shots.
Cease fire.
Wait one minute, and fire the remaining rounds in the mag.
Quickly insert the final mag, and fire all 20 rounds in rapid succession.
If the gun has not choked by the end of the third mag, you may conclude that your rifle *probably* tolerates steel-case ammo.
Otherwise, remember to bring a stiff cleaning rod to the range to bang the stuck cases from the chamber, and remember the stuck cases will be HOT.
The cleaning rod will also become extremely hot after two insertions in a hot bore.
Somebody will be along shortly to remind us that steel-case .223 works fine in AR's so long as you ram a steel-wire brush in the chamber to clean out whatever residue it is that steel-case ammo leaves behind, that brass-case ammo does not leave behind.
Then somebody will remind us that steel-case .223 ammo is fine in AR's unless you make the "mistake" of shooting brass-case ammo in the gun after you shoot the steel-case ammo - as you will discover that if you thought the stuck steel-case ammo was hell, the stuck brass-case ammo is worse by orders of magnitude.
This is what steel-case ammo (lacquer AND poly) do in the two AR’s from my collection.
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After about one magazine, it starts short-cycling until a case seizes in the chamber, and the extractor rips the rim off.
On top of that, its underpowered.
Don't use it.
One is a full-length Armalite A2 with standard rifle buffer (chamber appears to be chrome - cannot say for sure about the bore).
Other is a Chrome-lined J&T-sourced 10.5 SBR with H2 buffer (rips rims with, and without, the Gemtech HALO suppressor).
After about one magazine, each rifle starts short-cycling until a case seizes in the chamber, and the extractor rips the rim off.
Neither of my guns are problematic with quality BRASS-CASED ammunition.
_______________________
Seriously, you can try some of that stuff in your rifle if you want.
I recommend that you load three mags each with 20 rounds.
Fire the first mag quickly without pausing.
If the gun has not choked by the end of the first mag, quickly insert the second mag.
Quickly fire 10 rounds from the second mag.
Cease fire.
Wait one minute try to fire the next shot (shot #11 second mag).
If the gun has not choked yet, fire four more shots.
Cease fire.
Wait one minute, and fire the remaining rounds in the mag.
Quickly insert the final mag, and fire all 20 rounds in rapid succession.
If the gun has not choked by the end of the third mag, you may conclude that your rifle *probably* tolerates steel-case ammo.
Otherwise, remember to bring a stiff cleaning rod to the range to bang the stuck cases from the chamber, and remember the stuck cases will be HOT.
The cleaning rod will also become extremely hot after two insertions in a hot bore.
Somebody will be along shortly to remind us that steel-case .223 works fine in AR's so long as you ram a steel-wire brush in the chamber to clean out whatever residue it is that steel-case ammo leaves behind, that brass-case ammo does not leave behind.
Then somebody will remind us that steel-case .223 ammo is fine in AR's unless you make the "mistake" of shooting brass-case ammo in the gun after you shoot the steel-case ammo - as you will discover that if you thought the stuck steel-case ammo was hell, the stuck brass-case ammo is worse by orders of magnitude.
This is what steel-case ammo (lacquer AND poly) do in the two AR’s from my collection.
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BEELZEBOB
Member
There are just too many cases of people having problems, in a wide variety of different rifles, for me to run that through my baby.
I paid good money for my rifle, and simply for peace of mind, I will never run it.
W PMC @ $5.55 a 20rd box, and XTAC @ @5.60 a 20rd box, the extra dollar is worth it to me.
Plus on another level, I dont want to run stuff made in Russia. Nothing wrong with it, but its the same reason I dont own an AK.
I paid good money for my rifle, and simply for peace of mind, I will never run it.
W PMC @ $5.55 a 20rd box, and XTAC @ @5.60 a 20rd box, the extra dollar is worth it to me.
Plus on another level, I dont want to run stuff made in Russia. Nothing wrong with it, but its the same reason I dont own an AK.
Jeff F
Member
If your going to shoot steel cased ammo, you are going to get a lot more carbon build up in the chamber. Just give your chamber a good cleaning more frequently and before you switch back to brass cased ammo. I shoot lots of Wolf in my Mini 14 and it has no issues with it. Only time I ever had a problem was after shooting a few hundred rounds of steel case then some LC 5.56 I had a stuck case in the chamber, extractor riped a chunk off the case. After getting the stuck case out and cleaning the chamber, no more problem.
There really isn't anything worth debating about whether you can or should use steel cased ammo. If you don't want to, don't. The fact is that some rifles run well on it and some don't. It isn't the fault of the ammo.
The pics above that depict the rim of the casing being torn, isn't caused by carbon build up or varnish. Although steel cased ammo does allow more blow by in the chamber, I've never had a stoppage caused by carbon build up in the chamber. Carbon is going to build up regardless of the ammo used and if this line of logic is followed, it would mean that the rifle would lock up sooner or later using any ammo. My AR has over 4K rounds through it at this point and hasn't been cleaned. I've fired everything from M193 to steel cased stuff to hand loads in it. There is also NO varnish build up in the chamber caused by the use of steel cased ammo. Put simply, that stuff doesn't come off. I tried.
The reason that the rims are getting torn is because steel doesn't contract at the same rate that brass does, making the timing a more important factor when shooting steel cased ammo. The rim is getting torn because the bolt is trying to extract the case before it has had a chance to contract. Put simply, you're getting too much gas and you need to retard the timing a bit and slow the bolt down.
From what I've seen, this problem is most prevalent in 16" models running carbine length gas systems. Technically, the problem is with the rifle, not the ammo. The fix is to do one of two things. The first is what most do. They just don't run steel cased ammo in their rifle, deeming the ammo crap. The second is to retard the timing a bit. The easiest way to do this is to slow the system down by using a heavier buffer. How heavy a buffer you need will depends on your rifle.
The pics above that depict the rim of the casing being torn, isn't caused by carbon build up or varnish. Although steel cased ammo does allow more blow by in the chamber, I've never had a stoppage caused by carbon build up in the chamber. Carbon is going to build up regardless of the ammo used and if this line of logic is followed, it would mean that the rifle would lock up sooner or later using any ammo. My AR has over 4K rounds through it at this point and hasn't been cleaned. I've fired everything from M193 to steel cased stuff to hand loads in it. There is also NO varnish build up in the chamber caused by the use of steel cased ammo. Put simply, that stuff doesn't come off. I tried.
The reason that the rims are getting torn is because steel doesn't contract at the same rate that brass does, making the timing a more important factor when shooting steel cased ammo. The rim is getting torn because the bolt is trying to extract the case before it has had a chance to contract. Put simply, you're getting too much gas and you need to retard the timing a bit and slow the bolt down.
From what I've seen, this problem is most prevalent in 16" models running carbine length gas systems. Technically, the problem is with the rifle, not the ammo. The fix is to do one of two things. The first is what most do. They just don't run steel cased ammo in their rifle, deeming the ammo crap. The second is to retard the timing a bit. The easiest way to do this is to slow the system down by using a heavier buffer. How heavy a buffer you need will depends on your rifle.
Hey Tony good post!! Does not matter if it is crud in the chamber causing the timing problem, buffer, POJ (piece of junk), polymier, barometric pressure or act of God; some weapons it works in but some it does not. Try it and see what you get and go from there.
christcorp
Member
Tony's so correct on the rim issue.
Beelzebob: Actually, this is a forum. Forums are where people come to many times to find answers to problems. More that than the hobbiest. As such, you will hear more negative. But there aren't too many people having problems. They are just concentrated on a forum. But most problems using steel case ammo in a gun can be shown to be the gun's problem. Not the ammo. That's not saying you should invest in fixing the gun. I have a walther PPK that will not under any circumstance shoot Corbon ammo. That doesn't mean corbon ammo sucks. Doesn't mean Walther sucks. And it's not worth me paying to fix the gun. I simply use other ammo. But the steel case ammo in question, is not a problem.
Ramone; if your numbers were anywhere near close, you'd have an argument. However; much of the steel case ammo can be had for 0.18-$0.25 per round. On the cheap side of brass ammo, I still save about $2.00 a box using the steel case. Now; for some people, that's not a big deal. Well; when you shoot 5,000 -10,000 rounds a year like I and many others do, you'll find that you're talking about a savings of $500-$1000. That's just at $2.00 a box savings. There's a lot of people who spend $8.00+ on a box of brass ammo. That means a savings of $1000 - $2000. Guess what??? With all the possible damage some people are complaining of: Do you know how many $5 extractors I can buy with $500-$1000? How many $50 bolts??? Hell; for $1000 savings, I could buy another M&P15OR EACH YEAR, or 2 M&P15-Sport EACH YEAR. But instead, I don't have problems, and can shoot twice as much as you do for the same amount of money. And mind you, I happen to be financially well off, and I still shoot the steel case for the savings. (That's part of how I became financially well off). In other words: Not bragging about my wealth, but rather that money isn't as important to me as many others. I don't look at paychecks and worry. I balance bank accounts once a month or every other month and can't possibly bounce a check. So I could easily afford all the brass ammo I wanted to. So it's not that I buy steel case because I have to watch a budget. I buy it because it performs almost as well as brass ammo, at almost half the price.
Beelzebob: Actually, this is a forum. Forums are where people come to many times to find answers to problems. More that than the hobbiest. As such, you will hear more negative. But there aren't too many people having problems. They are just concentrated on a forum. But most problems using steel case ammo in a gun can be shown to be the gun's problem. Not the ammo. That's not saying you should invest in fixing the gun. I have a walther PPK that will not under any circumstance shoot Corbon ammo. That doesn't mean corbon ammo sucks. Doesn't mean Walther sucks. And it's not worth me paying to fix the gun. I simply use other ammo. But the steel case ammo in question, is not a problem.
Ramone; if your numbers were anywhere near close, you'd have an argument. However; much of the steel case ammo can be had for 0.18-$0.25 per round. On the cheap side of brass ammo, I still save about $2.00 a box using the steel case. Now; for some people, that's not a big deal. Well; when you shoot 5,000 -10,000 rounds a year like I and many others do, you'll find that you're talking about a savings of $500-$1000. That's just at $2.00 a box savings. There's a lot of people who spend $8.00+ on a box of brass ammo. That means a savings of $1000 - $2000. Guess what??? With all the possible damage some people are complaining of: Do you know how many $5 extractors I can buy with $500-$1000? How many $50 bolts??? Hell; for $1000 savings, I could buy another M&P15OR EACH YEAR, or 2 M&P15-Sport EACH YEAR. But instead, I don't have problems, and can shoot twice as much as you do for the same amount of money. And mind you, I happen to be financially well off, and I still shoot the steel case for the savings. (That's part of how I became financially well off). In other words: Not bragging about my wealth, but rather that money isn't as important to me as many others. I don't look at paychecks and worry. I balance bank accounts once a month or every other month and can't possibly bounce a check. So I could easily afford all the brass ammo I wanted to. So it's not that I buy steel case because I have to watch a budget. I buy it because it performs almost as well as brass ammo, at almost half the price.
um.. wolf is $359 for 2000 rounds which comes out to be $0.18/round.
Anything cheaper than $0.18/round for .223/5.56?
Ramone
Member
Sorry, I was looking at 20 round boxes to come up with prices, and just looked at Target sports (my usual supplier) for the prices.
interestingly, in bulk (1000 rds) it still came to $0.36/rd, but they did offer free shipping.
Still, at 50-100 rds a week, I am happier shooting the XM855 for the rare occasions when I am plinking. I usually shoot either Black Hills 69gr SMK (blue box reman) (.70/rd) or my handloads (sub MOA from an M4gery- priceless).
different strokes and all that.
interestingly, in bulk (1000 rds) it still came to $0.36/rd, but they did offer free shipping.
Still, at 50-100 rds a week, I am happier shooting the XM855 for the rare occasions when I am plinking. I usually shoot either Black Hills 69gr SMK (blue box reman) (.70/rd) or my handloads (sub MOA from an M4gery- priceless).
different strokes and all that.
Ramone, therein lies your error in cost calculations. I too have seen 20 round boxes of steel cased ammo at ridiculous prices, but most buy it in quantities of 500 or 1000. On a rough average, you can save about $100 per thousand rounds.
For some, 50-100 rounds doesn't even come close to representing what they would burn up in a range session. Just today, I burned up 300 rounds practicing with my AR while I was waiting for the barrel on my .308 to cool between 20 round strings.
For some, 50-100 rounds doesn't even come close to representing what they would burn up in a range session. Just today, I burned up 300 rounds practicing with my AR while I was waiting for the barrel on my .308 to cool between 20 round strings.
wnycollector
Member
+1 on this. I just ordered 2K rounds of WPA ammo from aim for $359. The cheapest brass case ammo I can find is PMC bronze from CTD for $555/2K rounds. For lots of range practice (I shoot ~800 rounds/month) steel case ammo is tough to beat $$$ for $$$.
I like avoiding problems...like, beforehand.
Steel-cased=> Saiga or AK (maybe Mini-14)
Brass-cased=> ARs and everything else
If I were to insist on shooting steel-cased ammo in an AR, I'd probably buy the Hornady Practice ammo (twice as expensive). It's much cleaner burning, more accurate, loaded with lead-core bullets, and is accepted at most all shooting ranges.
M
Steel-cased=> Saiga or AK (maybe Mini-14)
Brass-cased=> ARs and everything else
If I were to insist on shooting steel-cased ammo in an AR, I'd probably buy the Hornady Practice ammo (twice as expensive). It's much cleaner burning, more accurate, loaded with lead-core bullets, and is accepted at most all shooting ranges.
M
christcorp
Member
So why yes on steel with the saiga and AK but not the AR? Do you think the metal in Russia is stronger than the steel used in ammo, and the american made weapons use steel that is cheaper than the ammo?
So people say the AR's have tighter tolerances, and therefor are more subject to damage by the steel case ammo. That's a crock, but some believe it. The tolerance wouldn't have any impact on the extractor. The only american AR's or similar .223 rifles that I "Might" avoid using the steel case ammo on, are some of those chambered for .223 and NOT 5.56. And that in itself is an issue. There are definitely some guns that the manufacturer say are chambered for 5.56, when in fact they aren't. They are chambered for .223. Those, could find the steel case ammo a little tight.
Bottom line: If your AR or similar can't shoot steel case ammo, the problem is with your weapon. That doesn't mean you should spend hundreds of dollars fixing your gun. But it's not the steel case ammo's fault, and the steel case ammo isn't going to hurt your rifle. It's just a matter of whether your rifle is good enough to shoot it. But considering that I save approximately $750 a year on ammo by shooting steel case, I'm not worried. Even if it did cause damage, which it doesn't, I've saved enough to buy more AR rifles. Let alone that I get to shoot probably twice as much as many others can afford.
The-Reaver
Member
My Colt A1 has had thousands of rounds, down the pipe. Steel, Brass, doesn't matter. I cannot recal the last malfuntion.
^^^Heretic's post
Most ranges where I shoot my ARs won't allow ammo loaded with bi-metal bullets...we have a lot of steel targets.
Coupla months ago we had a 400 acre brush fire started at our local shooting range...and nobody was even shooting steel ammo.
What anybody shoots or doesn't (otherwise) is their business. Ya don't have to DEFEND the ARs ability to shoot steel, for heaven's sake.
And the AKs and steel ammo I take to the desert.
M
Most ranges where I shoot my ARs won't allow ammo loaded with bi-metal bullets...we have a lot of steel targets.
Coupla months ago we had a 400 acre brush fire started at our local shooting range...and nobody was even shooting steel ammo.
What anybody shoots or doesn't (otherwise) is their business. Ya don't have to DEFEND the ARs ability to shoot steel, for heaven's sake.
And the AKs and steel ammo I take to the desert.
M
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W.E.G.
Member
The torn rims shown in the pics above are representative of what happens when I shoot steel-case Wolf in my 20" A2-configured Armalite as well as what happens when it is fired in the 10.5" JT upper with, and without, suppressor installed.
Its not *just* a carbine issue.
Its not *just* a carbine issue.
Red October
Member
I have a Colt and a Bushmaster AR (both 5.56) and both fire Wolf and Brown Bear (both steel cased) just fine. They also both fire Silver Bear fine (I believe someone earlier posted that this was zinc coated).
Furthermore, I have fired Wolf and Brown Bear out of a HK-91, a M1A Scout, and an FN-FAL. The only one that has a problem is the FAL, and I suspect I am having the exact issue that Tony described earlier, and I need to cut down on the gas as the FAL takes a bite out of the rim, but leaves the casing in the chamber. It's easy enough to pull out by finger afterwards, so I'm convinced it's the timing issue he described.
As many have already stated, the problem is with the rifle, not the ammo.
Due to the carbonization mentioned several times, it does require you to be a bit more dedicated on your cleaning effort, but IMHO an ok trade for acceptable (and inexpensive) ammunition, especially if you aren't planning to reload.
Furthermore, I have fired Wolf and Brown Bear out of a HK-91, a M1A Scout, and an FN-FAL. The only one that has a problem is the FAL, and I suspect I am having the exact issue that Tony described earlier, and I need to cut down on the gas as the FAL takes a bite out of the rim, but leaves the casing in the chamber. It's easy enough to pull out by finger afterwards, so I'm convinced it's the timing issue he described.
As many have already stated, the problem is with the rifle, not the ammo.
Due to the carbonization mentioned several times, it does require you to be a bit more dedicated on your cleaning effort, but IMHO an ok trade for acceptable (and inexpensive) ammunition, especially if you aren't planning to reload.
I just don't buy the "theres something wrong with the gun" argument. Armalite is pretty much the gold standard in ARs. If it won't run on some kind of ammo, I gotta say it's probably the ammo. All you have to do is look at some of this crap to see the extremely low quality. The old computer rule holds here. Garbage in, garbage out.
Personaly I have had no issues running steel cased ammo through my M&P 15. However recently a buddy of mine was shooting some steel cased through his StagArms and he had an issue with extraction. It seemed like it would grab the casing but not let it go. It did it twice an we had to preform surgry on it.
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