Steel ammo (Wolf) for my DPMS?
- Thread starter David007
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http://www.youtube.com/user/Sturmgewehre#p/u/49/VR3fi1wCSmM
The Truth About Wolf Ammo
Sturmgewehre (YouTube)
This guy has a really good channel and does a good job explaining the myths about Wolf ammo. I don't know if the link will work but it's an easy search if not.
I have 3 AR's (BCM build, S&W M&P and a Bushmaster). Steel cased ammo works in all of them. I don't shoot a lot of Wolf but I have used some with no issues. I have shot a lot of Brown Bear and Silver Bear and have not had a single problem. Tula is underpowered and the least accurate ammo that I've shot.
Bear in mind that most if not all of the steel cased ammo is going to be .223 not 5.56mm. .223 is less powerful than the 5.56 rnd and the Russian steel cased .223 is generally even more underpowered than normal. Add in some inconsistent loading depending on where and when it was produced and your rifle may not function well with the steel cased stuff.
I haven't had any problems with steel cased ammo and will continue to use it. It's training ammo and I wouldn't use it for anything important or for anything other than casual plinking but as it's sometimes 2-3 times cheaper than quality brass cased ammo it's definately more affordable and allows more practice time.
The Truth About Wolf Ammo
Sturmgewehre (YouTube)
This guy has a really good channel and does a good job explaining the myths about Wolf ammo. I don't know if the link will work but it's an easy search if not.
I have 3 AR's (BCM build, S&W M&P and a Bushmaster). Steel cased ammo works in all of them. I don't shoot a lot of Wolf but I have used some with no issues. I have shot a lot of Brown Bear and Silver Bear and have not had a single problem. Tula is underpowered and the least accurate ammo that I've shot.
Bear in mind that most if not all of the steel cased ammo is going to be .223 not 5.56mm. .223 is less powerful than the 5.56 rnd and the Russian steel cased .223 is generally even more underpowered than normal. Add in some inconsistent loading depending on where and when it was produced and your rifle may not function well with the steel cased stuff.
I haven't had any problems with steel cased ammo and will continue to use it. It's training ammo and I wouldn't use it for anything important or for anything other than casual plinking but as it's sometimes 2-3 times cheaper than quality brass cased ammo it's definately more affordable and allows more practice time.
BEELZEBOB
Member
I just dont see how under powered and less accurate ammo is going to help me be a better shooter.
When I go to the range, about 3 times a month, I shoot 150-200 rounds.
So $150 for 500 brass FMJ doesnt seem too bad.
I have seen plenty of wolf/bear/steel cased ammo fired, feed, and extracted just fine.
I just wont shoot it through my barrel.
Yea, I may be an ammo snob. But I have no problem with that, and either does my gun.
When I go to the range, about 3 times a month, I shoot 150-200 rounds.
So $150 for 500 brass FMJ doesnt seem too bad.
I have seen plenty of wolf/bear/steel cased ammo fired, feed, and extracted just fine.
I just wont shoot it through my barrel.
Yea, I may be an ammo snob. But I have no problem with that, and either does my gun.
christcorp
Member
Steel case is terrible for Teaching ME how to clear jams. WHY? Because it NEVER JAMS! Opinions are one thing.... WRONG information is something else.
if you "Nice" AR has a problem shooting steel case ammo, it's NOT the ammo's fault. It's your "Nice Rifle's" fault. Sorry; that's the truth. At 100 yards with iron sights or a non-mag red-dot (Basically the same thing), and not using a vice or bench rest, just leaning across a table, I can put an entire 30 round magazine of steel case russian ammo in a 4"x4" square. Considering my AR's and AK's (.223/5.56) were designed to shoot people, and not as a 300 yard marksmanship rifle, I'd say that that is pretty decent accuracy.
Opinions are great. If you don't like/want to use steel case ammo in your precious AR, no one is saying you should or must. I'll never say that anyone should. I only respond to comments that are either straight out wrong, or filled with emotion that has no facts. The overwhelming majority of individuals shooting steel case ammo in an AR, AK, Mini, etc... don't have any problems. Most of the people who have problems usually do so because they don't clean their rifle well enough, or their rifle isn't as "Nice" of an AR as they think it is.
If this is true, I would suggest that you inform all of the guys with the .22 conversions for their ARs that they're wasting their time practicing with them. Or anyone that practices with .22, for that matter. The reality is that the steel cased stuff is a bit underpowered. Some of it more so than others, but not so much so that it renders practice with it a waste of time.
I'm a reloader and I've never mic'd the stuff. All I know about it is that it chambers, goes bang and ejects. It also shoots well enough that I can hit clay pigeons at 100 yards with it all of the time from a steady rest, so the ammo is certainly up to the task.
Apparently, no one cares to address the fact that ranges FORBID the stuff because it can cause fires, and in many places, local ranges are the ONLY place you are allowed to shoot.
Hey Tony, have you ever tried pulling bullets from Wolf 223 ammo and loading heavier ones? I have successfully pulled 62gr bullets and reloaded with XX-XXgr bullets. (Insert disclaimer here). That will tell you just how underpowered Wolf 223 is and can certainly lead to misfeeds. I doubt Wolf 223 even meets minimum SAAMI, BTW.
Take a breath y'all.
M
Hey Tony, have you ever tried pulling bullets from Wolf 223 ammo and loading heavier ones? I have successfully pulled 62gr bullets and reloaded with XX-XXgr bullets. (Insert disclaimer here). That will tell you just how underpowered Wolf 223 is and can certainly lead to misfeeds. I doubt Wolf 223 even meets minimum SAAMI, BTW.
Take a breath y'all.
M
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...because you can buy at least 50% more for the same price, and therefore shoot 50% more. So you can go to the range 3 times a month, and shoot 300 rounds instead of 150-200. Practice makes perfect, as they say.
Sure, if you are striving for pin point accuracy at long range, there's better choices than cheap russian steel (and PMC Bronze, XM193, AE, Winchester White Box and all the rest of the run of the mill cheap brass ammo, come to that) - but for short range high volume drill, cheap steel is just fine. Heck, I can even consistently hit 8" plates at 250 yards with Brown Bear....
None of the ranges round me forbid it. Never seen a fire started. That said, I do know the bimetal jacket can cause sparks, but until I see one I'm on the fence as to how much validity that argument has....especially when you compare to M855 steel penetrator ammo, which probably has as much or more chance of starting a fire.
My "nice AR" doesn't have a problem digesting the stuff.
Shooting 10 round groups:
Cheap Remington,2.5 moa
Expensive Federal2.0 moa
Winchester WB 2.5moa
Tulammo4.5 moa( being generous here, always one or two flyers)
Really cheap no brand russian 9 moa
Will confess I've not tried wolf or brown bear.
Oh,and by the way, my AR is really nice, and you could eat off my bolt.
Shooting 10 round groups:
Cheap Remington,2.5 moa
Expensive Federal2.0 moa
Winchester WB 2.5moa
Tulammo4.5 moa( being generous here, always one or two flyers)
Really cheap no brand russian 9 moa
Will confess I've not tried wolf or brown bear.
Oh,and by the way, my AR is really nice, and you could eat off my bolt.
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Well, I guess that makes it so...
See post #45
M
...but you said nobody was shooting steel ammo. Point being, shooting hot metal bullets in general can kick fires off; steel or copper jacketed.
We are in severe drought conditions here. Lead bullets at steel targets, STILL caused a fire. Steel on steel would increase that likelyhood. Most all indoor and outdoor ranges here in the southwest outlaw bi-metal bullets. They inspect all range ammo and test it with a magnet if it is suspect.
M
I've never tried pulling bullets out of Wolf cases just to reload them. I'd just load up some of my own before I went through the trouble of doing that. Besides, I don't shoot much Wolf. I usually shoot Bear ammo, when I'm shooting steel cased.
As for the steel on steel, in most cases, it isn't steel on steel. It's mild steel on chrome. Besides, even if you burn up a barrel every 5000 rounds, you've still saved enough to replace your existing barrel with a Noveske or Krieger.
The fact is that barrels will wear regardless of what ammunition you shoot. Most of the wear is in the throat area anyway and this is going to happen whether you're shooting steel or some other material down your bore.
As for the steel on steel, in most cases, it isn't steel on steel. It's mild steel on chrome. Besides, even if you burn up a barrel every 5000 rounds, you've still saved enough to replace your existing barrel with a Noveske or Krieger.
The fact is that barrels will wear regardless of what ammunition you shoot. Most of the wear is in the throat area anyway and this is going to happen whether you're shooting steel or some other material down your bore.
It is pretty accurate out of my rifles. I sort of got away from the whole precision AR thing and my rifles are more geared toward general shooting these days. I have a 1-3X scope on one and a 1.5X ACOG on the other and I can definitely hold minute of clay pigeon at 100 yards with the 62gr Silver Bear HPs. That just happened to be what was available when I was buying. I see now that cheaperthandirt doesn't have them any longer.
When I run out of this 5 gallon bucket of brass that I loaded, I'll probably just grab whatever is available in Silver Bear. Either the 55gr or the 62gr.
I usually shoot the Silver stuff because it's what I think looks prettier. I never had any problems with the Brown bear stuff either. Just be aware that the Silver Bears zinc coating can and will corrode if left to the elements. I usually blow through them 500 rounds at a time so I just leave the boxes sealed until I'm ready to shoot them. If you just open them up and store them in a box for any length of time, then may corrode on you.
When I run out of this 5 gallon bucket of brass that I loaded, I'll probably just grab whatever is available in Silver Bear. Either the 55gr or the 62gr.
I usually shoot the Silver stuff because it's what I think looks prettier. I never had any problems with the Brown bear stuff either. Just be aware that the Silver Bears zinc coating can and will corrode if left to the elements. I usually blow through them 500 rounds at a time so I just leave the boxes sealed until I'm ready to shoot them. If you just open them up and store them in a box for any length of time, then may corrode on you.
My AR15 is a Bushmaster 20" barrel (1:9 twist, if you care).
Wolf will generally run, but there will be a stuck case from time to time. I think at one point I went about 200 rounds without a problem. Usually a case of Wolf gets stuck every 40-60 rounds.
Wolf Ammo sounds different, and the recoil is lighter. I've read where people have chrono'd the stuff and report that it is much slower ~2600 fps. I see no problem in that for training short range, or shooting an AQT. It will keep 3" groups at 100 yards for me.
Brown Bear / Silver Bear / Monarch ammo is much better - holding under 2.5" groups for me at 100. Sometimes under 2". Since in my area, it is the cheapest stuff going (under $5 per box of 20), this is what I use most. I think I've only ever had one case of Monarch stuck, and that is in well over 2000 rounds shot. I've had more brass get stuck than steel-cased Monarch.
If it were all about accuracy and reliability, I'd shoot nothing other than Privi 75-gr match ammo. That stuff stays under 1" for me at 100 yards, and has never malfunctioned. Problem is, it is over twice as expensive as the Monarch.
For those saying that the problem is in the rifle if the steel cased stuff doesn't feed - you are right. My rifle has too tight of tolerances for Wolf. But then, it will print sub-MOA groups at 100 yards with match ammo.
Also, the steel used in steel cases is softer than brass - hence the pictures of torn rims. This cannot possibly be "harder" on extractors or any other parts than brass counterparts.
Many of those whining about malfunctions with steel are doing just that. They want their gun to run 100% flawlessly (which no gun does). Get real. This is life. Life is not 100% perfect. Carry a cleaning rod with you, and other basic tools to the range. Enjoy the fact that you can shoot twice as much for the same price.
Wolf will generally run, but there will be a stuck case from time to time. I think at one point I went about 200 rounds without a problem. Usually a case of Wolf gets stuck every 40-60 rounds.
Wolf Ammo sounds different, and the recoil is lighter. I've read where people have chrono'd the stuff and report that it is much slower ~2600 fps. I see no problem in that for training short range, or shooting an AQT. It will keep 3" groups at 100 yards for me.
Brown Bear / Silver Bear / Monarch ammo is much better - holding under 2.5" groups for me at 100. Sometimes under 2". Since in my area, it is the cheapest stuff going (under $5 per box of 20), this is what I use most. I think I've only ever had one case of Monarch stuck, and that is in well over 2000 rounds shot. I've had more brass get stuck than steel-cased Monarch.
If it were all about accuracy and reliability, I'd shoot nothing other than Privi 75-gr match ammo. That stuff stays under 1" for me at 100 yards, and has never malfunctioned. Problem is, it is over twice as expensive as the Monarch.
For those saying that the problem is in the rifle if the steel cased stuff doesn't feed - you are right. My rifle has too tight of tolerances for Wolf. But then, it will print sub-MOA groups at 100 yards with match ammo.
Also, the steel used in steel cases is softer than brass - hence the pictures of torn rims. This cannot possibly be "harder" on extractors or any other parts than brass counterparts.
Many of those whining about malfunctions with steel are doing just that. They want their gun to run 100% flawlessly (which no gun does). Get real. This is life. Life is not 100% perfect. Carry a cleaning rod with you, and other basic tools to the range. Enjoy the fact that you can shoot twice as much for the same price.
It took me two years and a couple thousand dollars to build my AR, but if you're going to do something, you might as well do it right. Blueprint specs,and the highest quality parts available, hand fitted by a pro(not me).
With decent ammo, it prints really nice groups. One of these days, I plan to get some Black Hills or Hornady match and find out what it's really capable of.
If a rifle won't handle cheap ammo because tolerances are correct, it find it hard to fault the gun when the ammo is obviously out of spec.
I have posted a pic of my AR in the best gun pics thread.
With decent ammo, it prints really nice groups. One of these days, I plan to get some Black Hills or Hornady match and find out what it's really capable of.
If a rifle won't handle cheap ammo because tolerances are correct, it find it hard to fault the gun when the ammo is obviously out of spec.
I have posted a pic of my AR in the best gun pics thread.
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Chris Rhines
Member
In my experience, a properly built AR will run just fine with steel-cased ammo. The accuracy may suck, and the gun may get really dirty, but the gun should function just as well as it does with brass-cased ammo.
Your DPMS, I'm sorry to say, is probably not a properly built rifle. It may run well with steel-cased ammo, or it may not. You won't hurt anything by buying a few hundred rounds and trying it out...
-C
Your DPMS, I'm sorry to say, is probably not a properly built rifle. It may run well with steel-cased ammo, or it may not. You won't hurt anything by buying a few hundred rounds and trying it out...
-C
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