stryker pistols

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My Commander is pretty well retired, I am in the plastic pocket pistol population now, DAO or Glock.
My house gun is DA/SA for safety while I try to juggle gun, glasses, flashlight, and phone.
My match guns are 1911 or 2011. I have no trouble with "The Stroke." At PPC, IPSC, IDPA, USPSA, SCSA etc., I know I am going to be shooting, so it is one well practiced draw, safety, aim, fire procedure. But Chuck Taylor said to beware of The Stroke with your defense or duty weapon, it might lead you to shoot someone you didn't have to.
 
How often is a gun owner taught the basics today before even buying a gun and then continue to train regularly?

Are there examples of gun owners that leave a loaded gun unattended?

Do gun owners ever carry a gun that's not in a holster that holds the gun secure with the trigger covered?

Saying that the safety is the owner is simply ignoring reality.

Hell, I've even seen adults driving without seat belts and talking on a cell phone while driving. Some even drive faster than the speed limit.

Reality still exists regardless of how hard adults try to pretend it does not.
 
For LE use a striker fired gun with no safety isn't an issue. The guns are carried in a secure holster and if they come out they are ready to be used. I've owned and used Glock and other striker fired guns with no external safety for years and as long as they are in a holster when not actually being fired I'm fine with them.

But many striker fired guns have safeties. Ruger, Smith & Wesson, Sig, and possibly others have striker fired guns with 1911 style safeties. For what I use a gun for I prefer them. Instead of the Glock 43 consider the Sig 365 with a safety. It is smaller than the Glock, it holds 10 rounds with the mags that come with the gun and 12 round mags are available.

I often need to keep a gun in a vehicle console or night stand. I also carry when camping/hiking. I've never felt comfortable with a loaded chamber and no safety on a pistol in my sleeping bag, nightstand or console. I still have some Glock pistols. But I also have some Smith and Sig pistols with safeties for those duties.
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A lot of those manual safeties are very low laying. The SW is good but the others are skimpy. My Ruger LC9s has a safety but it is about invisible. I normally load the gun, set the safety, slide it into its pocket holster, and release the safety just as it goes in; leaving me dependent on its DAO.
 
Jim Watson said:
A lot of those manual safeties are very low laying. The SW is good but the others are skimpy. My Ruger LC9s has a safety but it is about invisible. I normally load the gun, set the safety, slide it into its pocket holster, and release the safety just as it goes in; leaving me dependent on its DAO.
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I treat my early Smiths like a 5906 or my 469 similarly; the ones with the swipe up or forward safety. My Walther PP series also. Once holstered I swipe the safety into the off position and rely on the Double Action trigger. Newer Smiths though in both hammer and striker versions have the classic swipe down for fire safeties and I leave those on safe even when it is a DA/SA hammer fired model.
 
bdickens said:
Yeah. And in the real world they are caused by inattention.
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Bending over at the waist to pick-up something on the floor and having your AIWB carried striker gun discharge due to holster deformation in the trigger area is inattention? No- it's bad design on both the holster and the gun. [and yes, this has really happened].

How about if you actually need to use you weapon in a defensive encounter, still want it available for use in case something spins back up, but don't want to have it in your hand when LE arrives (eg John Hurley in Arvada)? Given that a AD or ND as the police show-up would be a bad thing, do you have the time and fine motor skills to re-holster your Apex trigger kit striker gun safely? I would much prefer to hit the de-cock on a P239 and put it into my hoodie pocket until the situation resolves.
 
jar said:
How often is a gun owner taught the basics today before even buying a gun and then continue to train regularly?

Are there examples of gun owners that leave a loaded gun unattended?

Do gun owners ever carry a gun that's not in a holster that holds the gun secure with the trigger covered?

Saying that the safety is the owner is simply ignoring reality.
Click to expand...

None of the above are my problem.
 
.455_Hunter said:
Bending over at the waist to pick-up something on the floor and having your AIWB carried striker gun discharge due to holster deformation in the trigger area is inattention? No- it's bad design on both the holster and the gun. [and yes, this has really happened].

How about if you actually need to use you weapon in a defensive encounter, still want it available for use in case something spins back up, but don't want to have it in your hand when LE arrives (eg John Hurley in Arvada)? Given that a AD or ND as the police show-up would be a bad thing, do you have the time and fine motor skills to re-holster your Apex trigger kit striker gun safely? I would much prefer to hit the de-cock on a P239 and put it into my hoodie pocket until the situation resolves.
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You are too inattentive to safely holster your gun, yet you would have presence of mind to decock your Sig? Are you sure you’re going to remeber to do that before jamming it in your pocket?

Seems like a straw man argument.

As for AIWB with a holster than can deform, yeah that’s bad decision to use such a holster. Who’s to say that in the same situation the pressure placed on the trigger wouldn’t have been enough to work a DA trigger pull on the 239?
 
jar said:
Saying that the safety is the owner is simply ignoring reality.

Hell, I've even seen adults driving without seat belts and talking on a cell phone while driving. Some even drive faster than the speed limit.

Reality still exists regardless of how hard adults try to pretend it does not.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone is trying to deny reality. A safety on a pistol doesn't make the gun safer to use, it just changes how a properly trained person safely uses that weapon. For an untrained, or poorly trained person (which would be the majority of gun owners) a manual safety doesn't automatically make the gun more or less safe. What it does do is add one more thing that they need to remember to do, both before and after firing the weapon. I have seen many novice shooters forget to take the safety off when about to fire, as well as forget to put it back on before holstering. Both of these could cause all kinds of issues, ranging from embarrassment to death. In the end, the solution to all of these types of questions is more (and/or better) training.
 
To the OP. As has been said striker fired pistols are popular because they are relatively inexpensive & most of them have a consistent trigger pull that is easy to learn. Personally I don't want an ultralight trigger on a carry pistol but the 4.5 to 5.5 pound pull most striker fired pistols have is easy to learn. There are some striker fired pistols such as the S&W SD9VE that have heavier pulls. They are available with or without a manual safety. There is no shortage of options.

As for leaving the safety off on a carry pistol. Even if I chose to do that I would still train to disengage it. I once found the safety I thought was off on an old Ruger P-series DA/SA was on. I had just finished going up a tree with a climbing stand but still just because you left a safety off or on doesn't mean that that is the where it will stay. Things can get bumped.

If you want a pistol with a safety that is what you should get & carry. A pistol without a thumb safety does not bother me as long as it is kept in a quality holster. One does need to pay attention when putting the gun back in it's holster.
 
bearcreek said:
I don't think anyone is trying to deny reality. A safety on a pistol doesn't make the gun safer to use, it just changes how a properly trained person safely uses that weapon. For an untrained, or poorly trained person (which would be the majority of gun owners) a manual safety doesn't automatically make the gun more or less safe. What it does do is add one more thing that they need to remember to do, both before and after firing the weapon. I have seen many novice shooters forget to take the safety off when about to fire, as well as forget to put it back on before holstering. Both of these could cause all kinds of issues, ranging from embarrassment to death. In the end, the solution to all of these types of questions is more (and/or better) training.
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Yet there does not seem to be any support for requiring free training on the laws of the locale, on proper use of the individual firearm, of proper storage and maintenance of the individual firearm before sale of the firearm.

Yes, training is essential and as responsible firearm owners we need to be attempting to see that training happens.
 
jar said:
Yet there does not seem to be any support for requiring free training on the laws of the locale, on proper use of the individual firearm, of proper storage and maintenance of the individual firearm before sale of the firearm.

Yes, training is essential and as responsible firearm owners we need to be attempting to see that training happens.
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That requires individual responsibility, not government requirements. You cannot force someone to become a competent weapons user/carrier. Those who are truly interested in taking responsibility will do so. Those who aren't, will simply go through the motions to meet the minimum requirements to carry that (in their mind) magical talisman called "the gun", and then forget what they learned. I've seen it many times, over and over.
 
.455_Hunter said:
Bending over at the waist to pick-up something on the floor and having your AIWB carried striker gun discharge due to holster deformation in the trigger area is inattention? No- it's bad design on both the holster and the gun. [and yes, this has really happened].

How about if you actually need to use you weapon in a defensive encounter, still want it available for use in case something spins back up, but don't want to have it in your hand when LE arrives (eg John Hurley in Arvada)? Given that a AD or ND as the police show-up would be a bad thing, do you have the time and fine motor skills to re-holster your Apex trigger kit striker gun safely? I would much prefer to hit the de-cock on a P239 and put it into my hoodie pocket until the situation resolves.
Click to expand...

Ad Hoc Fallacy.

There is no excuse for not inspecting one's equipment for serviceability prior to use. Again, inattention.

Not to mention all the times that someone has found at the end of the day that his much vaunted manual safety had somehow gotten brushed off. Now we're in the same position as the guy who doesn't have a safety.

Mechanical devices can and do fail. They are no substitute for mindfulness.
 
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bdickens said:
Ad Hoc Fallacy.

There is no excuse for not inspecting one's equipment for serviceability prior to use. Again, inattention.

Not to mention all the times that someone has found at the end of the day that his much vaunted manual safety had somehow gotten brushed off. Now we're in the same position as the guy who doesn't have a safety.

Mechanical devices can and do fail. They are no substitute for mindfulness.
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Hum...

My discussion was not specifically about safeties, but more about the defacto nature of striker triggers. I understand comprehension can be challenging for some folks.

Anyway, take a look at the below video of this "fallacy" in action-



While you are at it, take read about John Hurley-

https://www.cpr.org/2022/06/22/olde-town-arvada-shooting-johnny-hurley/

and Richard Black-

https://www.coloradoindependent.com/2019/02/07/aurora-black-limbaugh-office-involved-shooting/

about the dangers of having gun hand during an LE response, and why it might be real important to get it concealed rapidly without worrying about babying a striker trigger.
 
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JR24 said:
You are too inattentive to safely holster your gun, yet you would have presence of mind to decock your Sig? Are you sure you’re going to remeber to do that before jamming it in your pocket?

Seems like a straw man argument.

As for AIWB with a holster than can deform, yeah that’s bad decision to use such a holster. Who’s to say that in the same situation the pressure placed on the trigger wouldn’t have been enough to work a DA trigger pull on the 239?
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See above posting for video of bend over incident.

As a mechanical engineer, I would estimate the probability of a holster induced AD/ND with a decocked P239 or other true DA gun to be at least one order of magnitude less.

If the concept of pressing a decocker seems too onerous for you, then substitute a P250, P290RS or 642 for the discussion point and provide your response.
 
You are the one with comprehension issues. You're the one who doesn't understand what the word fallacy means.

A fallacy is an error in logic. In this case you keep adding conditions to try to bolster your weak argument. If I wanted to play tit for tat with you I'm sure I could dig up some incidents of people shooting themselves with 1911s, because that happens too manual safety notwithstanding.

John Hurley and Richard black are totally irrelevant to this. Having a gun in your hand when the cops show up is totally irrelevant to reholstering.
That is a red herring.
As to reholstering, if you are doing so then the incident must be over. And if it's over, what's the hurry?
Again, inattention versus mindfulness.

You want to carry a gun with a manual safety, then by all means do so. Don't let me stop you.
But don't try to tell me that I'm an accident waiting to happen because I'm carrying a Glock.
 
bdickens said:
You are the one with comprehension issues. You're the one who doesn't understand what the word fallacy means.

A fallacy is an error in logic. In this case you keep adding conditions to try to bolster your weak argument. If I wanted to play tit for tat with you I'm sure I could dig up some incidents of people shooting themselves with 1911s, because that happens too manual safety notwithstanding.

John Hurley and Richard black are totally irrelevant to this. Having a gun in your hand when the cops show up is totally irrelevant to reholstering.
That is a red herring.
As to reholstering, if you are doing so then the incident must be over. And if it's over, what's the hurry?
Again, inattention versus mindfulness.

You want to carry a gun with a manual safety, then by all means do so. Don't let me stop you.
But don't try to tell me that I'm an accident waiting to happen because I'm carrying a Glock.
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Sigh...

The forum gets special when pet sacred cows are being violated.

In my first post in the thread, I indicated my overall preference for a carry gun with a non-energized firing system.

In a subsequent post, I indicated that I understood why a manual safety might not be desirable on a carry gun.

However, in your mind, I am advocating for 1911 carry. o_O

Then I provided an example of a holster induced AD/ND of a striker gun and two recent local incidents where armed citizens were killed by responding LE due still having a weapon in there hands. I made a conjecture that these events illustrated why you may need to conceal your weapon in a hurry, and not have time to do a focused tactical re-holstering drill, nor the dexterity to complete it safely.

But anyway, enjoy my logic fallacies... :rofl:
 
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.455_Hunter said:
about the dangers of having gun hand during an LE response, and why it might be real important to get it concealed rapidly without worrying about babying a striker trigger.
Click to expand...

If the police show up and you have a gun in your hand you drop it.

As for the guy blowing his stones off that's on the holster, not the gun and again, it's not my problem.
 
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