Suppose a nuclear device is detontated in Manhattan...

[R.H. Lee]

quote:
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In one case a parent allows their child to die. In another a parent sends their child to die and kill as many other men, women and children as they can. Yes, there is a significant difference in my book.
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It's only different by degree. What I see here is Moslem parents sacrificing their child for a precieved "greater good"... and the Cristians doing the same. Maybe it's just a difference of perception...


Your conclusion makes no sense. The intent of each parent is different-totally opposite. The Christian parent EXPECTS God to heal thier child, keep their child alive, the psychotic Moslem parent sends their child to a violent death.

 

[Strings]

Your conclusion makes no sense. The intent of each parent is different-totally opposite. The Christian parent EXPECTS God to heal thier child, keep their child alive, the psychotic Moslem parent sends their child to a violent death.

The "psychotic Moslem parent sends their child to a violent death as a martyr." Remember: these people have been taught for ages that such actionas are apropriate, and result in instant entry to paradise...

I'm NOT trying to defend it, folks: understand that right up front. However, there's a world of difference between the majority of Moslems, and the radicals.

 

[Paco]

RileyMc,

Did you read the rest of my post? Or just comment on the one line that gets your hackles raised? No one is saying that there is a corrolation between RADICAL Islam and MAINSTREAM Christianity, but as one of my THR brethren so aptly said: a nut job, is a nut job, is a nut job.

And yes Jim Jones was a Christian Radical NutJob. Many did drink the kool-aid on their own and many were forced at gun-point; some tried to escape and many were gunned down. He also, I believe, shot and killed a visiting senator and his staff. That, brothers and sisters, sounds alot like terrorism. The OKlahoma boys were Christian Radicals that were terrorists. Period.

Heck, even the Furher tried to back his belief in Christianity, as well as the Aryan Brotherhood, and the KKK. ALL Christian radicals that have killed quite a few people.

-Here's the crazy thing: they were no more 'Christian' than the 'islam' terrorist is a true Muslim. It's a vehical for them.

-Lessons learned today:
-With the Exception of Buddism, ALL the major religions of the world have used their religion to war on others and ALL have had their nutjobs.

-The average day muslim is just a normal person, not an animal, just like the average day christian, or wiccan, or anybody else trying to get by in this world.

-You're not gonna agree with all things in Islam and They're not gonna agree with all the things in Christianity. BOTH writings have some questionable things in them. And for those that wish to jump the gun, the old testament IS a part of Chrstianity, and that puppy's loaded with "interesting" rhetoric.

-Kill/capture any and all terrorists regardless of sex,race,religion etc.

-when attempting to capture, they resist: kill them.

-IF captured successfully go through DUE PROCESS, not because they are AMericans but because WE are Americans

-Lastly, believe it or not, war has rules:just ask a veteran. There are things that can be done on the battlefield that are righteous and others that are down right despicable. It's not a 'no-hold-barred' kind of affair.

BTW, I'm a practicing Christian. (One of the reasons I try to keep cool is 'cause I know the history of my own religion, and I try to follow its best and most tolerant parts.)

...With liberty and JUSTICE FOR ALL,
-paco

 

[R.H. Lee]

Heck, even the Furher tried to back his belief in Christianity

An often made claim, but false.

Here are Nazi quotes on that subject:

"Christianity, sprung from Jewish roots and comprehensible only as a growth on this soil, represents the counter-movement to any morality of breeding, of race, of privilege. It is the anti-Aryan religion par excellence"
-Nietzsche


"Verily a man cannot serve two masters. And I consider the foundation or destruction of a religion far greater than the foundation or destruction of a state" -Adolf Hitler, 'Mein Kampf' (1927)


Look, Christianity certainly does not need defense from me. Christianity has been under attack for 2000 years. Either you're a believer or you're not. It is a program of "attraction" rather than "promotion" IMHO.

My point is that there is a world of difference between the objectives of Christianity and those of Islam. Christianity values human life, Islam apparently, does not. Rather Islam teaches that non-believers (infidels) must either 'submit' or be killed. There is no such Christian doctrine. The New Testament says (paraphrasing) "carry the Word to all people. If the people in a town will have nothing to do with you, shake the dust of that town from your feet and go elsewhere" Quite a bit different than "submit or die"

 

[Paco]

RileyMc,

Riley, I hear what your say man, but it's the radicals that are the crazys not the normal everyday muslim that I see and work with. We have hundreds of thousands of them in the city and we live in COMPLETE harmony with them.

-If you press me, only if pressed, and ONLY to see the literal view of things(which BTW, I think is dangerous with any holy script), then yes, the NEW Testament ONLY is truely more benign that some phrases in the Koran that are questionable either towards other religions or women etc. BUT if you consider the Old testament which is the foundation of and precursor to the New testament, then I'd say that the old testament BEATS what I know of the Koran when it comes to having some pretty crazy things about stoning folks, and women's rights, and the chosen people etc.etc. Both the Old and New testament are part of Christianity.

-But ya' know, it doesn't matter. Like I said in my last post (and please re-read it: I thought it was a solid post, if I may say so ), these cats are no more a good representation of the mainstream Islam than little Jimmy Jones is of Christianity or the Popes who ordered the Crusades or the Salem Witch Trials or the Inquisition both in England and Spain.

-I'm assuming lots though to think that you are a Christian, and frankly, it shouldn't matter. That's the beauty of this country: we have a good enough system of law that floats its own ethics and morality based on reason. That is enough and we should stick by it.

There's no room for personal beliefs or convictions in this war 'cause then we'll never, not in a thousand years, agree. Let's stick with being and acting like Americans and follow the laws, codes and doctrine that our good countrymen have laid down and we have agreed on for the most part.

-paco

 

[R.H. Lee]

There's no room for personal beliefs or convictions in this war 'cause the we'll never, not in a thousand years, agree. Let's stick with being and acting like Americans and follow the laws, codes and doctrine that our good countrymen have laid down and we have agreed on for the most part

Gotta take issue with this. First "personal beliefs and convictions" have EVERYTHING to do with this conflict. It is about freedom vs. tyranny. The U.S. did not attack the Islamic world, they attacked and are continuing to attack the entire civilized western world.

Second, to handle this threat pursuant to "laws and code" is IMHO a HUGE mistake. This is not an enemy who respects "laws and code". The criminal justice system is not the correct forum to deal with them. This is a WAR with an enemy unlike any we have seen before, they are extremely dangerous, and they intend to kill us. It is our job to prevent that.

Not all Moslems are terrorists, true. However all terrorists are Moslems (and I know you're gonna mention McVeigh, so let me say it first)

Our purpose, like the Israelis, is not to "agree" with the Islamic world, only to peacefully co-exist. Unfortunately, radical Islam will not tolerate co-existence.

 

[Heraclitus]

Here are Nazi quotes on that subject: "Christianity, sprung from Jewish roots and comprehensible only as a growth on this soil, represents the counter-movement to any morality of breeding, of race, of privilege. It is the anti-Aryan religion par excellence" -Nietzsche

I'm not certain Nietzsche ever actually employed the word "Aryan" in his writings. This much is certain:

Although half German himself, he was vehemently anti-German; or, to be more precise, anti-German-culture.

He was never a Nazi, although his sister, Elizabeth, was a stanch nationalist and pan-Germanic demagogue who often doctored up her brother's writings postumously.

He was not anti-Jew. In fact, he reveled in the notion that the Jews were ingenious for dominating world religion through their cultural influences.

Those who knew him personally also knew that while his writings were one thing, he himself was another. By their own testimony, they had never known a more gentle man.

His "issue" with Christianity was more an issue with his personal shortcomings and failed relationships.

He died in a "funny farm".

 

[Paco]

Riley:
Not all Moslems are terrorists, true. However all terrorists are Moslems (and I know you're gonna mention McVeigh, so let me say it first)

-Then why say it if you know it isn't true. You know that terrorism is a way to push an agrenda so anyone can partake of it.

Riley:
The U.S. did not attack the Islamic world, they attacked and are continuing to attack the entire civilized western world.

-They believe we are and have been attacking their world for quite awhile and with some just cause. And as I said a giazillion times before, they aren't really trying to wage war with all the western world. They say that sure, but lots of whack-jobs have said that before, or attempted it, or felt entitled to the world because of ____________(fill blank with some doctrine).
Christians are equally told to spread the Word to every corner of the world and some of the fundamentalist Christians feel that the the kindgom of God won't come about until ALL living people are Christian. Sounds like the same BS to me.

Riley:
Second, to handle this threat pursuant to "laws and code" is IMHO a HUGE mistake. This is not an enemy who respects "laws and code".

Our military has courts, laws, lawyers, investigators etc. just to enforce law and punish the criminal in peace OR wartime. Ya' can't tell me law doesn't fly in the face of war. And ofcourse a criminal doesn't respect laws and codes, that's why they are criminals! The average muslim does have and respect a definitive law and code.

For the twentieth time, we enforce law, even in war, because we believe in due process: That's why we don't or shouldn't shoot or torture prisoners of war, even if they are doing it to our folks, that why we don't send our kids to war, even if they are doing it etc, etc.

Riley:
Our purpose, like the Israelis, is not to "agree" with the Islamic world, only to peacefully co-exist

-Bingo! Right on the Money!

Lawfully yours,
Paco

 

[R.H. Lee]

Well, Paco, we'll have to agree to disagree. Your continuing argument that moral equivalence exists between Islam and Christianity refutes your claim to being a Christian, IMHO.

FWIW, my opinion is that the islamofascistjihadists will continue to exploit our civilized notion of law, fairness and tolerance. They will one day be successful in a devastating attack on this country. Many of our citizens will die violent deaths, many more will be grotesquely injured and maimed. We have to be successful in stopping them EVERY time, they only have to succeed once.

I happen to live in a rural county of less than 300,000. The only "high value" target here is a nuclear power plant. My chances of being killed or injured in a terrorist attack are low. Not so for those of you in big cities. Watch your six.


edited for speeling

 

[Paco]

PM coming your way RileyMc

-paco

 

[R.H. Lee]

Acknowledged. Response PM sent.

 

[longeyes]

Don't mind us. We like to watch.

 

[fix]

pax should be along any minute now...right?

 

[Paco]

(Coming out from a windowless room...)

-Wow, that was messy...
-How do I wash all this blood off my hands???


Sorry to disappoint Everyone:

RileyMc and I are friends now, and even holding hands!

-All this anger Riley had towards me was actually pent up frustrated love for me, which, ofcourse, I can't recipricate. Sorry Riley!



-Well, It was a civil PM exchange that panned out to live and let live, or rather live and let die, however you wish to look at it. I can only hope someone else will pick up the torch and keep beating this good dead horse some more!

 

[R.H. Lee]

Can we get back on track? Here is what has happened so far:

October 27, 2004
"A nuclear device of unknown power was detonated today in NYC by unknown persons. Visual inspection of the area is impossible due to the large dust and debris cloud. However, satellite imagery indicates that at lease 14 square blocks of lower Manhattan have been levelled. Early estimates are 500,000 dead-instantly vaporized-and another 750,000 to 1,250,000 buried underneath rubble-their condition is unknown."
More at 11:00.

November 1, 2004

"Last weeks nuclear explosion in lower Manhattan continues to push refugees out of the area. Millions have arrived in Connecticut and New Jersey where tent cities have been set up to provide for basic care. Many
are suffering radiation sickness. The radioactive cloud continues southward, along the Atlantic seaboard. Rescue workers are still unable to enter ground zero. Banking activity has resumed in the rest of the nation, although NYSE activity has been suspended indefinetly.

The status of next weeks Presidential election is as yet unknown. Democratic Presidential hopeful John Kerry is demanding that the election go forward, provided that the electoral votes from the affected states be awarded to him based on recent polling. He claims his constituency would otherwise not be represented.

Meanwhile satellite imagery shows a massive movement of troops across Red China."

"In other news from the Middle East, explosions rocked Tel Aviv today. It is believed that hijacked aircraft from Syria and Iran crashed into the downtown area. Egypt has denied involvement.

Also, this just breaking....

There are early reports of heavy fighting outside the capital city of Riyad, Saudi Arabia. Although communication with the city has been cut off, there is speculation that the Royal Family may be under attack by radical Islamic factions within the capital.

More as news becomes available."
"We have more on that story out of Saudi Arabia. Insurgent Sheik al Nassim el Fatwa has declared himself the ruler of Saudi Arabia, after announcing the execution of the Royal Family. The Sheik has called for the gathering of all faithful Muslims at Mecca, and has ordered the exportation of oil to the western world stopped.

Earlier this year President Bush withdrew all U.S. troops from Iraq, and released all strategic oil reserves in an election year effort to reduce divisiveness and lower the price of gasoline."

"After an emergency meeting of Israel's Knesset, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon vowed a nuclear response to yesterday's attacks on Tel Aviv.
Mr Sharon said that unspecified targets in Iran and Syria would be hit unless 'those responsible were produced within 72 hours'.

And in Red China, satellite imagery shows increasing activity in and around suspected ICBM launching sites. Chinese Premier Xhao Huang Ping denies the reports, and accuses the west of an 'aggressive imperialist posture'"

November 2, 2004

"North Korean President Yong Ping Pong today denied reports of his country's troops massing on the border to the south. 30,000 U.S. troops along the demilitarized zone have been placed on high alert.

Meanwhile, there are sketchy reports of incursions into the U.S., along the Arizona and Texas borders, of persons unknown. Eyewitnesses say several roving bands dressed in uniforms of the Mexican military, and armed with fully automatic weapons, have attacked remote ranches in the United States."

Our enemies are gathering, we have no oil reserves, world production of oil is in the hands of radical Islamists, Israel is about to go nuclear.........

What would you, as POTUS, do next?

 

[Paco]

I'd bomb every dam Muslim I could find!

-Sorry, I just couldn't.... must.... con..troll....RESIST!

Peace,
POTUS

 

[telomerase]

Only one choice

What would you, as POTUS, do next?

Obviously, pass stricter gun control laws and disarm the airline pilots... but then, that's what all POTUS do regardless of circumstances.

 

[R.H. Lee]

As POTUS, I would initiate "OPERATION IMPERIALIST AGGRESSION"

Almost simultaneously, the following would happen:
Using conventional airstrikes/cruise missles:

1) Reclaim Saudi Arabia and the oil. Follow up airstrikes with ground forces, armored, and infantry. Claim the oil reserves and sales proceeds as reparations for NYC. Charge France and Germany 3 times the going rate until they turn from their socialist ways.

2) Locate the President of North Korea. Level that building. Have our troops along the DMZ stand down/take cover while the North Korean troops are eliminated from the air.

3) Bomb the living bejabbers out of all silos, ICBM launch sites in China. Have WalMart reward China with a contract doubling orders into the foreseeable future.

I haven't decided what to do about Israel going nuclear. Should we help them/stop them/carry the water?

Have I missed anything?

 

[Paco]

Riley,

After reading that, I'm thanking God every second for not letting you be the POTUS.

-If it was a joke then that made for funny reading!

-If not, don't struggle when the nice men in white coats are trying to help you into your very own "Special-Person" jacket.

 

[R.H. Lee]

And I was just about to ask for your vote.

Ok, strategically, what's wrong with my solution?

 

[Paco]

Hmmm... where do I even begin...

 

[R.H. Lee]

I haven't gone nuclear. I haven't targeted civilians or non-combatants. I have eliminated 3 major threats to our existence. I have increased the standard of living in the U.S. manyfold with cheap oil.....

What's the problem?

 

[Michigander]

If I were the POTUS under those circumstanses?

I would retire and go golfing Probably get my score down without all that crazy stuff on my shoulders.

And not to get back off track, but there was a bit about the "Old Testament" and Christianity. The "Old Testament," a lot of it any ways, is part of Judaism, Christianity and Islam:

Muslims believe in the books of the previous prophets including the "Torah" which was sent to Moses, the "Zaboor" (Psalms) which were given to David, the "Injeel" (Gospel) which was given to Jesus, and the Qur'an which was given to Muhammad

 

[Paco]

Riley,

My brother, how are ya'? I must admit that given the criteria of just satisfying American interests without any regard to anyone else, you've done beautifully.

on point 1):
Just in case you didn't know, Saudi Arabia is not one of our states. It's what's known as a country. When an army goes into a country without being invited, then it's called an invasion. 'Army' also denotes any ordinance of ours that crosses their borders. Ya' just can't take THEIR oil, and hold the people of Saudi Arabia responsible just because 16 of the fellas that whacked us in 9/11 were Saudis. That's like going after the states that the Oklahoma city bombers were from and holding them responsible.

You dolling out oil to whom ever you want is exactly what Saddam had in mind when he went for the oil fields. You'd be no better than him.

on point 2):
They've yet to warrent an assasantion attempt on their leader, which wouldn't be smart anyways seeing that they might already have the capability to launch on our west coast. We aren't the police of the world and we can't go on suppositions of every possible fella out there who MIGHT harm us. Don't poke the hornets' nest. Try a little diplomacy first.

on point 3):
See 1) about the whole it's-bad-to-bomb-thing. For better or worse, China has favored nation status with us. Wouldn't be good to bomb our 'friends'. Besides who in the heck are we to go and try to disarm the whole world or at least anyone that isn't our little puppy dog, of their nuclear weapons. We opened the pandoras box, and now we've got to live with the fact that other folks are gonna get that bomb.

-Walmart, and all over-sees work is the reason why this country is economically weak: and YOU want to reward them with an even bigger contract and take even MORE jobs away from Americans...

-also, great way to really piss off the rest of the world...

I think that'll do for now...

 

[R.H. Lee]

Paco, I think you're hung up in legal and 'ethical' dilemmas. I said 'strategically'.

Besides, remember we just lost NYC and a couple million of our citizens to a terrorist nuke. The world's gonna cut us some slack. Now is the time.