SWAT team kicks down wrong door again...

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You know, just once I would like to see a career LEO respond to one of these threads with, "You know, *bleep*-ups like this are making me and my co-workers look bad, not to mention making my job harder and driving a wedge between me and the citizens I'm sworn to protect. I hope those dimwits see the inside of a jail cell." Instead of the usual 'circle-the-wagons', hard-put-upon cop pathos. :rolleyes:

- Chris
 
This incident happened in Germany, and how many have happened here?

Path ~

I wasn't complaining about LEOs in general. I have had nothing but good experiences with the people in law enforcement (a few well-deserved tickets here and there, that's it).

With a few notable exceptions, the problem isn't the people wearing the uniform.

The problem is with a very, very evil and problematic policy that is becoming more and more widespread -- that of sending LEOs to knock people's doors over in the middle of the night.

My LEO friends seem to think that the severity of the problem or problems they are combating (drugs, usually) justifies this terrible policy.

I tell you, it does not. I tell you, it puts officers in danger in much the same way that gun control puts individuals in danger. On the surface, it looks safer. This house, or that raid, resulted in no officer casualties and produced X number of arrests and convictions. Great! Now tell me; what effect did that raid have on the community good will LEOs must have in order to do their jobs safely and well? Was it eroded? Were there people highly supportive of the LEOs before, who are now ambivalent or worse? What long term effect will that shift have on officer safety?

Even if this awful policy did in fact make officers safer, it does not necessarily follow that it is a good thing. From this side of the thin blue line, it is a bad thing. It puts citizens in danger. You know, the folks LEOs are sworn to protect. Surely that ought to bother the sheep-dog instincts of a good cop. And when no knocks first started becoming common, I'm sure it did. But after awhile, well, you know, the guys get hardened to the job. Get in, point the guns, yell the orders, slam people to the floor for noncompliance. Don't worry about it too much, let it all get sorted out in court. Most the time they are only knocking over bad people's doors anyway, so it's all okay.

And then my LEO friends come online, and can't figure out where the "Us vs. Them" attitude come from!

This is astonishing to me. As society's sheep-dogs, LEOs shouldn't be complacent about tearing up a sheep -- even if often it turns out there was a wolf under that sheep's clothing, it should still positively horrify them if they ever even once tear up a sheep in sheep's clothing. But somehow, the LEO culture has shifted enough that this sort of collateral damage isn't just acceptable, but defensible. Justified by the enormity of the drug problem, justified by the rising crime rate, justified by officer safety. Justified because it happened and it was a LEO that did it.

It's too bad. All the way around, it is too bad.

pax

No matter how disastrously some policy has turned out, anyone who criticizes it can expect to hear: "But what would you replace it with?" When you put out a fire, what do you replace it with? – Thomas Sowell
 
A mile in my shoes is all I ask before you pass judgment upon my brothers and sisters and I.
What a load! Police have no business doing things like this, period. If you have a valid warrant, then you make sure you have at least one ordinary squad car outside in full view, lights flashing, so the occupants of the home can look out the window and see that it is not a criminal raid. Next, unless you saw a desperate and armed felon run into that building, you walk up to the door in ordinary civilian police uniform, knock, and when the door is answered, you present the warrant, which better well detail the exact items to be searched for, or person to be arrested.

I would rather 100 guilty men go free than one innocent citizen be shot to death by cops. I am not afraid of bad buys, because I can handle bad guys so long as I live in a free country. I cannot handle a police state, however, nearly as easily. We have about 100 times more cops than we currently need in this country.

P.S. For a really relevant fictional parallel of what's happening in America regarding our transformation into a police state, and the proper reaction of the people thereto, read Chapter VIII The Scouring of the Shire, in J.R.R. Tolkien's Return of the King, which is book III of The Lord of the Rings. Very meaningful for our times.
 
El Tejon -

depends on whose order we're talking about...

German machinery usually works exactly the way it is supposed to, while German gov't agencies sometimes... um, have rather creative interpretations of the law.

Germany has a huge bureaucracy on the state and federal level that lends itself to misuse.


Regards,

Trooper
 
'nam flash back

Weimadog asked ................
Kentucky Rifle, could you please explain what this means?
quote:
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as the PTSD made me hear the rocks in cans and hear the piercing scream--"They're in the wires"! "I would be back". I would also see what I just described. The remaining people of the SWAT Team would kill me.
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I can't make any sense of it.

Post Tramatic Stress Disorder made him think he was back in vietnam.
and the enemy had came into the perimater and he believes he is back in 'nam but the remaining swat members would shoot him before he could reload or flashback to present day.
 
God only knows how many other Search Warrants were correctly and successfully served on that day, with out incident or injury.
I am slowly but surely getting fed up with all the anti-authoritarians and anti-cops types here.
A mile in my shoes is all I ask before you pass judgment upon my brother and sisters and I.

Having spent twenty years as a naval officer and aviator, plus seventeen plus years as a county law enforcement officer, I feel qualified to interject here.

The reason I bring up the naval officer career is because it taught me an appreciation for working in a zero tolerance for error environment. I knew a number of fine naval officers who made one mistake, and as a result their careers were ruined, further promotions were denied, and they were forced out of the service. That doesn't seem to be the norm when police officers make a terrible mistake and an innocent person is killed. One example is the Ismael Mena killing by Denver police officers. As far as I know, Officer Bini is still working for the Denver Police Department. The chief of police, who was fired, was permitted to continue working as a captain so he could maximize his retirement benefits. Mena's family had $400,000 thrown at them to make them go away.

You know, just once I would like to see a career LEO respond to one of these threads with, "You know, *bleep*-ups like this are making me and my co-workers look bad, not to mention making my job harder and driving a wedge between me and the citizens I'm sworn to protect. I hope those dimwits see the inside of a jail cell." Instead of the usual 'circle-the-wagons', hard-put-upon cop pathos.

Done!

Pilgrim
 
To me, the most frightening part of this thread (and many others) is some LEO's attitude that they are above the law they are sworn to uphold. When they kick in the wrong door or shoot an unarmed suspect, they believe they are not responsible for thier actions. Also,some LEO's have lost touch with the citizens they have sworn to protect and view anyone who's not a cop as "The Enemy." Weasel, I hope you are never pulled out of your car on a dark street by a cop with dead eyes and wearing sap gloves. Then you'll get to walk a mile in a citizens shoes.
 
PAX,

I was in no way referring to any specific post(s). I just get a little amazed at some of the vitriol aimed at LEO's sometimes.(Not by you!) The policy may be problematic when it comes to no-knocks but we address it and we elect people who address it.

There are some really great folks on this board who are LEO's and I have family and friends who are as well. I just get discouraged when there seems to be deep animosity towards LEO's displayed here. I can see it toward an individual who has wronged you but not against a whole group of people. My intent was only to point out that concern.

Here at THR the only US is the side of the good guys. The only THEM is the
bad guys.
 
The bill in congress to allow Police nation wide CCW while denying it to me was the last piece in the puzzle.

The lines have been drawn. Everyone had better choose a side before the bullets start to fly. Its just a matter of time now.
 
You think the cops here are defensive? Post this thread on the CopTalk forum over at www.glockTalk.com and watch out for the fireatorm of outrage that a CIVILIAN would have the audacity to criticize one of our "boys in blue."

They'll all sing the melody "If CIVILIANS wouldn't commit crimes, these errors wouldn't happen. 'Good faith' excuses all police errors and omissions. We have no liability."
 
F4GIB you beat me to it.If you want to see the us vs them in all it's glory go to glock talk /cop talk.
 
First off, let me say that I do appreciate what our LEO do for us. However, I don't condone any types of errors such as that which was mentioned above. You guys are paid to do a job and to do it correctly. If you screw the pooch, then prepare to pay the piper. Remember that you serve the public trust and not the other way around. If you don'y like it, then get the hell out of the kitchen. Thank you for your attention.
 
Well in general I dont have much use for them after they stuck a 12 ga gun in my wifes face for driving a green car and got the drop on the daugher in the baby seat with another 12 bore. My wife still calls them pigs.
 
Why is it that LEOs are NEVER allowed to make any mistakes? Seriously, are any of you non LEOs out there totally 100% mistake free on your jobs...you never do anything incorrectly... Fed Ex drivers that never deliver a package to the wrong house...electricians that never wire anything wrong.

Cops are people just like everyone else. We make mistakes just like everyone else. It is not bc we are power hungry JBTs or bc we want to prone out your family at gunpoint, it is bc we believe that there is an imminent threat to our safety and we do not want to die. Its just that simple. I don't want to die on the job and if that means that I offend someone by holding them at gunpoint, then so be it. I would rather they be offended than to have my family get a visit from the Chaplin.

Anyone that thinks LEOs are above the law needs to look around. LEOs are held to a much higher standard than other citizens. How many other jobs are there where you can get criminally charged for doing your job? We can and do get prosecuted and incarcerated for doing what we are charged to do... Does that happen to you? We get sued civilly for everything we have bc some crack dealer says we had his cuffs to tight and now he will never be able to live his dream of being a brain surgeon...

It is becoming more and more understandable for LEOs to be angry at the world they work in. They are cursed by the people they arrest...and then cursed by the people they protect. They are called "Pigs" by criminals and "Pigs" by non criminals...and people wonder why they only associate with other LEOs.

The tone of this thread is just sad. Cop bashing like that is pathetic.

A little info for those that think cops are above the law: http://www.leldf.org/
 
I was going to comment on what seems to be a "Cop Hater" mentality among a large percentage of THR members, and how as a retired LEO I found that highly objectionable. Then I got to thinking back over my LE years, and I realized that the resentment seems to be more strongly directed at SWAT and their tactics than at LEOsw in general, and guess what? I have to agree with them, Black fatigues, jump boots, shaved heads, and ski masks breaking down doors in the middle of ther night only to discover they have raided the wrong residence is not good Police procedure.

While I would like to think I would remain calm and obey the orders of a masked, machine gun waving individual proclaiming he was the POLICE, If I was awakened from a peaceful sleep this way I don't know that I wouldn't come up firing, with predictably disastrous results.

I know there are times when a no knock warrant is the only answer, but those times should be few and far between.
 
FedDC,

Seriously, are any of you non LEOs out there totally 100% mistake free on your jobs...

If my job involved sticking submachineguns in people's faces, I'd probably strive a little harder in that direction.

When it comes to that aspect of the job, there IS no "Whoops! Sorry!" If you can't deal with that, you need to go get another line of work. This is one of your employers speaking: Zero Screwups Are Allowed In The Serving Of No Knock Warrants. Every time there's a wrong address, I want to see somebody fired. Every time an innocent gets shot, I want to see it charged as the criminal negligence it is.

They are Few and FAR between.

There's more than one a week performed on the wrong address in this fair land of ours. Only the ones where someone gets killed make national news, but it seems there's a one or two of those every year, too.



Oh, and, hey, go read Pilgrim's post a few times. ;)
 
Someone posted this earlier "There are some really great folks on this board who are LEO's and I have family and friends who are as well." That is correct but, alas, it is not the "rest of the story."

In my 30 years of law practice including time as a prosecutor, police civil service board member, and more time as a firefighter/paramedic, I've been around cops a lot. Most of them exhibit a Dr. Jeckle/Mr. Hyde syndrome. Off the job and even on the job with people they know, they are fine fellows. But as soon as the cruiser door slams shut many undergo a remarkable personality change. Your nice neighbor disappears and "Mr. Bad Ass in mirrored sunglasses" appears with all the character defects that the image calls up.

Amazingly, the officer doesn't even know it's happening (and will deny it vigorously). I suspect they could pass a polygraph denying an incident even though the entire thing was on videotape occuring in exactly the opposite fashion. For those moments "Mr. Bad Ass" is in charge psychologically and physically.
 
This is precisely why the Founding Fathers feared large standing armies. When government has a regular large force of paid armed employees (call them soldiers, if you like), tyranny is always the result, to one degree or another. When everyone's right to keep and bear arms was recognized, this tyranny effect was muted significantly, but as the right to keep and bear arms came to be increasingly infringed, the palpable character of tyranny increased with the increasing disparity regarding this right as between regular folks and government agents (state or federal). The tyranny effect was also muted when the federal government's armed agents were not permitted to interact with civilians in an official capacity. The FBI changed that in the 1940s. The tyranny effect was also muted by the fact that local law enforcement at one time consisted of an elected sheriff, and a small force of deputies that were your neighbors and friends. If more firepower was needed, they called on known reliable regular folks to bring their weapons and lend a hand. There was no large patrolling standing armed force of uniformed government agents everywhere you looked. Now there is. We don't refer to all the cops floating around as a standing army, but that is essentially what they are, and the Founders feared precisely that for precisely the reasons we are discussing on this thread. Human nature - and the nature of government - being what it is, this situation tends quickly to degenerate into tyranny. This is especially so when there exists a government-enforced disparity in arms between armed government agents and the rest of us "lowly" folks who can't be trusted by government with "assault weapons" and high cap magazines.
 
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FedDC

The Wimmin are trying to teach you something you need to know.

Tamara hit the nail with "99% ain't acceptable in some things."
Pax is absolutely right with being appalled by the lack of remorse after an "OOPS."

Seriously, if you believe good intentions are all that's required to get by, then you need to re-examine your premises. :scrutiny:

TC
TFL Survivor
 
P.S. For a really relevant fictional parallel of what's happening in America regarding our transformation into a police state, and the proper reaction of the people thereto, read Chapter VIII The Scouring of the Shire, in J.R.R. Tolkien's Return of the King, which is book III of The Lord of the Rings. Very meaningful for our times.
 
Read: No More Wacos: What's Wrong With Federal Law Enforcement and How to Fix by David B. Kopel, Paul H. Blackman

and no, this is not a "tin foil hat" book
 
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