cameroneod
Member
This argument is rediculous. I have a really stressfull job. If I walk in one day and shoot everyone, no one is going to say, "Well he did a really good job most of the time. Let's let this one slide." :banghead:
SWAT team kicks down wrong door again...
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This argument is rediculous. I have a really stressfull job. If I walk in one day and shoot everyone, no one is going to say, "Well he did a really good job most of the time. Let's let this one slide." :banghead:
12-34hom
Member
Reality check
The misnomer that surrounds police & the work they perform, is that it's all going to go according to plan.
That's like saying every Doctor is a Marcus Welby or Lawyer a Perry Mason.
It just ain't so.
Through proper training, intel, and other basic police procedures most errors can be circumvented. But not all.
The Women & Men that make up the ranks of police are not infallible, and to expect that level of performance is foolish. The amount of stress associated with police work shows up in the amount suicide, divorces, substance abuse, apathy & other job related stress factors.
The society that we interact in has a telling effect, Look at the video games some of your children play and how they glorify violence, the role models people look up to, the amount of controlled substances imported and injested by Americans so forth and so on.
Needless to say, it's not a job for everyone, but to some it's a calling.
They provide a service, not perfect by any means, but the vast majority are doing there level best. Not good enough you say.. then step up & into the front lines.
12-34hom.
The misnomer that surrounds police & the work they perform, is that it's all going to go according to plan.
That's like saying every Doctor is a Marcus Welby or Lawyer a Perry Mason.
It just ain't so.
Through proper training, intel, and other basic police procedures most errors can be circumvented. But not all.
The Women & Men that make up the ranks of police are not infallible, and to expect that level of performance is foolish. The amount of stress associated with police work shows up in the amount suicide, divorces, substance abuse, apathy & other job related stress factors.
The society that we interact in has a telling effect, Look at the video games some of your children play and how they glorify violence, the role models people look up to, the amount of controlled substances imported and injested by Americans so forth and so on.
Needless to say, it's not a job for everyone, but to some it's a calling.
They provide a service, not perfect by any means, but the vast majority are doing there level best. Not good enough you say.. then step up & into the front lines.
12-34hom.
cameroneod
Member
The service doesnt have to be perfect. But at the very least I would expect a heavily armed SWAT team to show up at the right house.
fix
Member
The state of denial that many are in here is alarming to me.
QuarterBoreGunner
Member
Can you elaborate on that?
cameroneod
Member
Granted Im probably a bit critical. If I make ONE mistake, I'm dead. There is no "almost perfect." I'd expect that a SWAT team would be capable of the same amount of precision.
QBG, I think this is what is meant by "the state of denial that many are in here is alarming to me."
We have this same trite BS about cops being overstressed and "not perfect" when all that is needed is some restraint and facts-checking 9and double checking) before bursting in to serve a warrant. If it were some kind of life or death situation, we could likely understand the stress of the moment and a mistake, but serving a warrant isn't such a scenario.
fix
Member
I'd refer you to my comments in this thread.
That said, allow me to address a few points.
Can't blame the cops for that. I'd support that bill in a heartbeat. I want it for everyone. I'm not willing to say that cops can't have it just because I might be excluded. Give it to them, then we'll work on the rest of us.
Can't blame the cops for this either. I want those same things for my own defense, so why on earth would I believe that cops shouldn't have them for their own defense...and furthermore my defense as well. I don't want the cops to be outgunned anymore than I want to be outgunned.
First of all, LEOs should be held to higher standards, but in many well documented cases they are not. Second, there is no way a cop is going to be criminally charged for "doing their job." To suggest otherwise implies that cops are above the law. I will not even allow "in the course of their duties" as a substitute. I can't imagine that any department policy mandates criminal activity.
anti-authoritarians? You mean free men who are genuinely upset over the trampling of other's rights?
anti-cop? That dog wont hunt. Cops screaming "anti-cop" or "cop basher" anytime someone dares question a police action is starting to really annoy me. The constant use of it is doing more harm to your cause than good...particularly with me. Feel free to tell me all about the pain and misery that you endure every single day to make the streets safe for ungrateful schmucks like me...the chronic cop basher.
The Real Hawkeye
member
Yeah, but the problem is not the mistakes, it's thinking that it's ok to do "no knock," middle of the night, raids in private residences in the United States of America. This should NEVER happen here. How perfectly you perform them means nothing to me. In America, it should be assumed that EVERY TIME this happens, people are going to be killed.
You will come back and say, "Well, then the bad guys will get away." Fine. Like I said, I'd rather that 100 bad guys get away, than have this nation transformed into a tyrannical nightmare. I can deal with the bad guys. It's not nearly so easy dealing with a police state tyranny.
Samurai Penguin
Member
I'll sound off on the "UPS driver delivering to the wrong house" bit...
There are mistakes...and then there are MISTAKES.
I am a truck driver. I deliver to grocery and convenience stores. Just today, I must have left my brain in the house, because for the first time, I had to go back to a previous delivery to bring them a whole pallet of stuff that I just plain missed. WHOOPS. Big screw-up...but still, just a "mistake."
Now, if, during the course of my day, I took a turn too wide and ended up smashing a family into street pizza...that would be a MISTAKE. And I would expect to have my butt hung out to dry for it. Even if the courts let me drive again, I don't know that I'd want to.
When a cop's "mistake" destroys innocent lives and property, and they're back on the job in a week, apparently unconcerned about it...well, that may be part of this Us-vs.-Them thing. Copy?
There are mistakes...and then there are MISTAKES.
I am a truck driver. I deliver to grocery and convenience stores. Just today, I must have left my brain in the house, because for the first time, I had to go back to a previous delivery to bring them a whole pallet of stuff that I just plain missed. WHOOPS. Big screw-up...but still, just a "mistake."
Now, if, during the course of my day, I took a turn too wide and ended up smashing a family into street pizza...that would be a MISTAKE. And I would expect to have my butt hung out to dry for it. Even if the courts let me drive again, I don't know that I'd want to.
When a cop's "mistake" destroys innocent lives and property, and they're back on the job in a week, apparently unconcerned about it...well, that may be part of this Us-vs.-Them thing. Copy?
LEOs & Military: Perspective on and Tolerance for Error
When I read about such no-knock screw ups, I want to rage and start chewing the carpet & can barely fathom that such error is regarded so casually by some in the law enforcement community.
I have several cop buddies with whom I went to school or met later. After college, they went on to become LEOs; I went into the Army. The difference in perspective regarding tolerance of error and responsibility for one's actions (whether or not one is complying with "orders") is a mile wide.
In the Army (especially in my unit), tolerance for "life changing/ending" error was not an issue. There was no tolerance for it. None. Errors committed during training, under "safe" conditions that showed up dangerous error in performance were ruthlessly dealt with. The term was "wall-to-wall counseling." It was unpleasant to experience, watch, and administer (I played every role by the end of my enlistment: counselled, counselor, and eyewitness). It is unpleasant to anyone not a sociopath and it bordered on the sadistic. But, if you had to administer, you had to muster up your outrage at what MIGHT have occured as well as your regard for that soldier in particular and those others under your command. And then you freakin' made d*mn sure that that boy understood that we had no tolerance for error. Not doing so would be a disservice to him, your other subordinates, and to your duty.
Errors that did result in harm generally earned a response under the UCMJ.
From speaking with veterans from other services, they, too, had little tolerance for error. I am reminded of a navy veteran that was punished under the UCMJ for not turning a valve at the proper time during a drill on the nuke sub he served on. No one was killed or injured or even put into serious danger, but they surely wanted to impress upon him the gravity of his error. I think the fact that none of our nuke carriers have gone up in a mushroom cloud and that we've lost what, one?, nuke sub testify that we can train 18 year old high-school grads to a tremendously high standard of performance.
Note that the intentions of the serviceman do not bear on the consequences of error. Screwing up "in good faith" just plain does not cut it.
I will grant that such a level of performance and the attending consequences for error is terrifically stressful, which is probably a reason so many enlistees do not re-enlist.
In the case of knocking down the wrong door, such errors ought to be career ending. Material damages ought to come out of pay checks as well as the city coffers. Errors that result in assault, battery, injury, or death ought to be prosecuted as if performed by any other citizen. Tough standards, no doubt. If you don't like it, don't volunteer for the job. Plenty of other jobs out there with greater tolerance for error.
I think the scariest difference in perspective, however, is in the responsibility one bears for executing illegal orders. I was taught that I was responsible for the legality of any order I executed. Some of my LEO buddies think that if they were ordered to do it, they bear no responsibility for the order's legality. I'm not quite sure if that is historical amnesia or merely self-serving rationalization.
They are still my buddies. I will admit, however, that I find it somewhat uncomfortable to be around them at times. Having the kind of authority they have and not being held accountable or to the same standards of performance I was is kinda disconcerting.
That is surely not how I was trained and is, I think, a reason why you get the outrage seen in these type threads, because if WE had pulled such a stunt, it would not have been so casually dismissed.
A great deal of the responsibility for the current state of affairs is the leadership failure of so many leaders in the LEO community to expect high levels of performance and back it up with teeth.
When I read about such no-knock screw ups, I want to rage and start chewing the carpet & can barely fathom that such error is regarded so casually by some in the law enforcement community.
I have several cop buddies with whom I went to school or met later. After college, they went on to become LEOs; I went into the Army. The difference in perspective regarding tolerance of error and responsibility for one's actions (whether or not one is complying with "orders") is a mile wide.
In the Army (especially in my unit), tolerance for "life changing/ending" error was not an issue. There was no tolerance for it. None. Errors committed during training, under "safe" conditions that showed up dangerous error in performance were ruthlessly dealt with. The term was "wall-to-wall counseling." It was unpleasant to experience, watch, and administer (I played every role by the end of my enlistment: counselled, counselor, and eyewitness). It is unpleasant to anyone not a sociopath and it bordered on the sadistic. But, if you had to administer, you had to muster up your outrage at what MIGHT have occured as well as your regard for that soldier in particular and those others under your command. And then you freakin' made d*mn sure that that boy understood that we had no tolerance for error. Not doing so would be a disservice to him, your other subordinates, and to your duty.
Errors that did result in harm generally earned a response under the UCMJ.
From speaking with veterans from other services, they, too, had little tolerance for error. I am reminded of a navy veteran that was punished under the UCMJ for not turning a valve at the proper time during a drill on the nuke sub he served on. No one was killed or injured or even put into serious danger, but they surely wanted to impress upon him the gravity of his error. I think the fact that none of our nuke carriers have gone up in a mushroom cloud and that we've lost what, one?, nuke sub testify that we can train 18 year old high-school grads to a tremendously high standard of performance.
Note that the intentions of the serviceman do not bear on the consequences of error. Screwing up "in good faith" just plain does not cut it.
I will grant that such a level of performance and the attending consequences for error is terrifically stressful, which is probably a reason so many enlistees do not re-enlist.
In the case of knocking down the wrong door, such errors ought to be career ending. Material damages ought to come out of pay checks as well as the city coffers. Errors that result in assault, battery, injury, or death ought to be prosecuted as if performed by any other citizen. Tough standards, no doubt. If you don't like it, don't volunteer for the job. Plenty of other jobs out there with greater tolerance for error.
I think the scariest difference in perspective, however, is in the responsibility one bears for executing illegal orders. I was taught that I was responsible for the legality of any order I executed. Some of my LEO buddies think that if they were ordered to do it, they bear no responsibility for the order's legality. I'm not quite sure if that is historical amnesia or merely self-serving rationalization.
They are still my buddies. I will admit, however, that I find it somewhat uncomfortable to be around them at times. Having the kind of authority they have and not being held accountable or to the same standards of performance I was is kinda disconcerting.
That is surely not how I was trained and is, I think, a reason why you get the outrage seen in these type threads, because if WE had pulled such a stunt, it would not have been so casually dismissed.
A great deal of the responsibility for the current state of affairs is the leadership failure of so many leaders in the LEO community to expect high levels of performance and back it up with teeth.
Addendum
I wanted to add that my tolerance for error increases when the time/distance in which a decision must be made is less/small.
Busting down the wrong door when serving a no-knock warrant: INTOLERABLE. Do your freakin' homework & get the right house.
Making the wrong decision in a shoot/no shoot situation with only fractions of a second to make said decision: much more tolerable. It still might be wise to give 'em the boot, though. Who wants to be backed up by someone who's a proven screw-up?
I wanted to add that my tolerance for error increases when the time/distance in which a decision must be made is less/small.
Busting down the wrong door when serving a no-knock warrant: INTOLERABLE. Do your freakin' homework & get the right house.
Making the wrong decision in a shoot/no shoot situation with only fractions of a second to make said decision: much more tolerable. It still might be wise to give 'em the boot, though. Who wants to be backed up by someone who's a proven screw-up?
Accountable: Try this-
http://www.leldf.org/
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=230071
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=227844
When was the last time you were arrested, sued for more money than you will ever make and fired for perfoeming your duties. Try getting sued and put in jail for shooting a crack dealer that is shooting at you...
http://www.leldf.org/
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=230071
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=227844
When was the last time you were arrested, sued for more money than you will ever make and fired for perfoeming your duties. Try getting sued and put in jail for shooting a crack dealer that is shooting at you...
I'm going to disagree with this. I'm all for putting the same restrictions on LEOs as non-LEOs. Do you think a LEO is going to raise a finger to help non-LEOs get mandatory reciprocation passed if they already have it? Doubt it (sure, there will be a very, very few exceptions.) However, if they are in the same boat as us, they'll call their congresscritters, donate to campaign funds, hold up signs at rallies, etc. right along with us. For example, you don't see LEOs working hard to get standard-cap mags given back to us. If all they could carry was the castrated 10-rounders, you can bet they'd be beating down the door on the capitol. Another example is the "Smart Gun" technology. The LEOs had a fit when it was suggested that they may have to use this technology. You can bet if they weren't given exemption in the drafts of the bills, they'd do nothing short of riot and march on the capitol. Once they were exempted, they didn't jump forward and say that we shouldn't be subjected to the technology either, since the weaknesses that apply to LEOs apply to all users.
I'll be the first to say that I'm not very interested in causes that do not affect my immediate circle. I don't expect anyone to do the same, LEO or not.
We weren't there and neither were you. There sounds like there is plenty of doubt as to wether the shootings in the first GT thread was justified, and the office in the second thread was let off all criminal charges. So what if he lost the civil suit? That's a problem with the tort system in America, not the justice system.
How about you try getting hastled by police, arrested, your door kicked in, your family roughed up, or your dog shot for going about your daily business. Everybody's got something to lose.
fix
Member
Most of us would probably stand a greater chance of going to jail for shooting that same crack dealer than you.
fix
Member
I'd be glad to tell him that. Furthermore, if he disagreed with that statement I'd think he was deluded.
"Accountable: Try this-
http://www.leldf.org/
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php...threadid=230071
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php...threadid=227844
When was the last time you were arrested, sued for more money than you will ever make and fired for perfoeming your duties. Try getting sued and put in jail for shooting a crack dealer that is shooting at you..."
The leldef.com site reminded me of the following:
A buddy of mine was sued by a crack dealer's "estate" (whodda thunk a crack dealer had an "estate") for shooting him. Well, Mr. Crack Dealer was holding Ms. Crack Whore hostage at the time, tried to kill her, and fired at my buddy & his fellow officers. My buddy & such then sent Mr. Crack Dealer straight to hell by way of the .40S&W express train. Bad guy dead, hostage alive, cops uninjured. Good show, all around.
Oh, the crack whore also sued, 'cause one of the rounds fragmented inside Mr. Crack Dealer, exited, and injured her leg. THERE's gratitude for ya.
His dept fielded all the lawsuits, BTW, since it is pretty obvious they were in the right.
So, what's the point?
Being sued by the dregs of society for doing the right thing is not the same as being held accountable for one's actions. One is an abuse of the legal system, the other is good leadership. Frivolous lawsuits are in no way the same as proper discipline and high standards of performance.
There are, too, ways in which "accountability" has gone all wacky. Such as when the dept enforces discipline that protects ITSELF rather than the citizens or the LEOs. This whole profiling mess is part of that muck and only one example. Another is the use of sh*tty DAO autopistols with triggerpulls from H*ll. There are others...
*****************
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php...threadid=230071
"Carbonneau, a two-year veteran of the Houston Police Department, has been suspended with pay pending the outcome of the investigation."
Is this an argument in favor of abolishing the grand jury system? If so, I concur.
******************
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php...threadid=227844
OK, how do the glocktalk articles bear on the accountability, discipline, and intolerance for error that LEO leadership ought to impose and that our citizenry has a right to expect? These look to be opportunistic suits in the legal lottery that is our court system. Criminal court being used for the self-aggrandizement of politically-minded prosecutors. Civil court being used by the "estates" of crack dealers and their crack whores for their chance at millions.
********************************
Oh, BTW, I am quite familiar with loss of liberty for errors comitted in the line of duty. Nothing UCMJ-ish, just a time-honored alternative to correct my performance at the time and provide incentive to avoid errors in the future. Yep, it worked, as I still have it seared on my brain...
Also, I have, in the past, signed for millions of dollars worth of sensitive items. One of THOSE baby's lost and its federal-pound-you-hard-in-the-a$$-prison for me, boyo! As well as more fines than a SPC could expect to pay in 10 lifetimes. The fact I'm pounding on this keyboard and not getting pounded as somebody's girlfriend at Ft Levanworth is testimony that I managed not to hork it up. I can, partly, thank some hard-as-nails NCOs & Os for their none-too-gentle training. Leadership matters. Expectarions matter. Discipline matters.
...and what's the deal with federales burning the place down, AGAIN? For the love of Pete, I was taught as a child to be careful with fire.
http://www.leldf.org/
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php...threadid=230071
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php...threadid=227844
When was the last time you were arrested, sued for more money than you will ever make and fired for perfoeming your duties. Try getting sued and put in jail for shooting a crack dealer that is shooting at you..."
The leldef.com site reminded me of the following:
A buddy of mine was sued by a crack dealer's "estate" (whodda thunk a crack dealer had an "estate") for shooting him. Well, Mr. Crack Dealer was holding Ms. Crack Whore hostage at the time, tried to kill her, and fired at my buddy & his fellow officers. My buddy & such then sent Mr. Crack Dealer straight to hell by way of the .40S&W express train. Bad guy dead, hostage alive, cops uninjured. Good show, all around.
Oh, the crack whore also sued, 'cause one of the rounds fragmented inside Mr. Crack Dealer, exited, and injured her leg. THERE's gratitude for ya.
His dept fielded all the lawsuits, BTW, since it is pretty obvious they were in the right.
So, what's the point?
Being sued by the dregs of society for doing the right thing is not the same as being held accountable for one's actions. One is an abuse of the legal system, the other is good leadership. Frivolous lawsuits are in no way the same as proper discipline and high standards of performance.
There are, too, ways in which "accountability" has gone all wacky. Such as when the dept enforces discipline that protects ITSELF rather than the citizens or the LEOs. This whole profiling mess is part of that muck and only one example. Another is the use of sh*tty DAO autopistols with triggerpulls from H*ll. There are others...
*****************
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php...threadid=230071
"Carbonneau, a two-year veteran of the Houston Police Department, has been suspended with pay pending the outcome of the investigation."
Is this an argument in favor of abolishing the grand jury system? If so, I concur.
******************
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php...threadid=227844
OK, how do the glocktalk articles bear on the accountability, discipline, and intolerance for error that LEO leadership ought to impose and that our citizenry has a right to expect? These look to be opportunistic suits in the legal lottery that is our court system. Criminal court being used for the self-aggrandizement of politically-minded prosecutors. Civil court being used by the "estates" of crack dealers and their crack whores for their chance at millions.
********************************
Oh, BTW, I am quite familiar with loss of liberty for errors comitted in the line of duty. Nothing UCMJ-ish, just a time-honored alternative to correct my performance at the time and provide incentive to avoid errors in the future. Yep, it worked, as I still have it seared on my brain...
Also, I have, in the past, signed for millions of dollars worth of sensitive items. One of THOSE baby's lost and its federal-pound-you-hard-in-the-a$$-prison for me, boyo! As well as more fines than a SPC could expect to pay in 10 lifetimes. The fact I'm pounding on this keyboard and not getting pounded as somebody's girlfriend at Ft Levanworth is testimony that I managed not to hork it up. I can, partly, thank some hard-as-nails NCOs & Os for their none-too-gentle training. Leadership matters. Expectarions matter. Discipline matters.
...and what's the deal with federales burning the place down, AGAIN? For the love of Pete, I was taught as a child to be careful with fire.
Combat-wombat
Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2003
- Messages
- 1,683
Pax and Tamara both hit the nail on the head.
If para-military troopers storm into my house in the middle of the night, what am I supposed to do? I believe that I would start shooting. How do I know that they are real police, and this isn't a home invasion? It's exactly what Pax is saying with her "oops" point.
Tamara is right, too. When you storm into people's homes at night wearing camo BDUs and ski masks, there is NO room for a mistake. If, for instance, a SWAT team made that mistake in my house, they would be met with gunfire. I don't know they're real officers!
If para-military troopers storm into my house in the middle of the night, what am I supposed to do? I believe that I would start shooting. How do I know that they are real police, and this isn't a home invasion? It's exactly what Pax is saying with her "oops" point.
Tamara is right, too. When you storm into people's homes at night wearing camo BDUs and ski masks, there is NO room for a mistake. If, for instance, a SWAT team made that mistake in my house, they would be met with gunfire. I don't know they're real officers!
The Real Hawkeye
member
Exactly! And this is exactly what is not happening. These guys rough up an unarmed pregnant woman, and she loses the baby, and nothing happens. These guys put a hole in an unarmed woman's head while she's holding a baby in her arms, and nothing happens. I guarantee that if I made "mistakes" like that, I'd be in jail for a good long time. Where's this supposed "higher standard" that they claim they are under?
Some other issues I haven't seen raised in this thread yet spring to mind. 1) When a no-knock warrant gets served on the wrong place, you're not going to get another one before the bad guys at the place you meant to go to read about your screw up in the morning paper. Will they still be there when you get it straightened out and come for them, or have you scuttled the investigation and allowed them to run off and prey on the population from a new base?
2) If the warrant said one place and you went another, are prosecutors and judges going to be so hot on helping you in the future? Can you still performe effectively as a LEO if they think you're unreliable? Everyone is embarassed, some people's jobs are on the line, and they're all looking at you. If your response is "yeah well, high stress, mistakes happen..." isn't everyone way more likely to want to fire you, since you'd seem to be saying you think it's ok?
3) If you've got a no-knock warrant and it's not based on any affidavits by LEO's who've been there or observed the place, how was it justified to a prosecutor and a judge? If a SA or AUSA and a Judge approve a baseless warrant some eager beaver LEO brings to them, it's their fault. They get paid to vet warrants, among other things.
If the warrant is supported by fraudulent affadavits, whoever is tapping the land of make believe needs to be fired at the very least.
ETA: Hence; it's probably not an individual police officer's fault; we have several levels of "quality control" for these things here in America. Unless the cop is purposely misleading, it's the Judge's problem for approving something that's crap, along with the prosecutor who reviewed it.
2) If the warrant said one place and you went another, are prosecutors and judges going to be so hot on helping you in the future? Can you still performe effectively as a LEO if they think you're unreliable? Everyone is embarassed, some people's jobs are on the line, and they're all looking at you. If your response is "yeah well, high stress, mistakes happen..." isn't everyone way more likely to want to fire you, since you'd seem to be saying you think it's ok?
3) If you've got a no-knock warrant and it's not based on any affidavits by LEO's who've been there or observed the place, how was it justified to a prosecutor and a judge? If a SA or AUSA and a Judge approve a baseless warrant some eager beaver LEO brings to them, it's their fault. They get paid to vet warrants, among other things.
If the warrant is supported by fraudulent affadavits, whoever is tapping the land of make believe needs to be fired at the very least.
ETA: Hence; it's probably not an individual police officer's fault; we have several levels of "quality control" for these things here in America. Unless the cop is purposely misleading, it's the Judge's problem for approving something that's crap, along with the prosecutor who reviewed it.
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atek3
Member
You know, it sounded like a good idea, but the Jack Boots just would'nt quite fit. Joking! Sheesh, lighten up.
atek3
Pax, Tamara, jfruser,
I agree with every word.
LEOs: just because you have a warrant or *think* you have the right guy, does not mean you are the Infallable Hand of God -- you are still an accountable citizen.
Since my thoughts have been stated so well in some of the previous posts, I'll just yield to those.
Stay safe, all,
sch40
I agree with every word.
LEOs: just because you have a warrant or *think* you have the right guy, does not mean you are the Infallable Hand of God -- you are still an accountable citizen.
Since my thoughts have been stated so well in some of the previous posts, I'll just yield to those.
Stay safe, all,
sch40
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