Tacticle situation for my kids at school after another school shooting!!!

[borrowedtime69]

Dont know if you've heard yet about another fatal school shooting here in Colorado, guy stormed into a Bailey HS , took some girls hostage , apparently one or more of the teen girls were sexually assaulted, let all but two go, fataly shot one then killed himself. so far we have had Columbine, this incident, and a few near incidents that were caught in time. i absolutely do not support any type of gun ban. i realize that bad things happen all the time, no way to be absolutely safe, just do the best you can.

Having said that, i need some real, solid tacticle advice to give to my 9 year old with some minor learning disabilities on how best to survive a school shooting and to retreive my kintergardener and get them both to safety. in this age of frequent school shootings and possible muslim terrorist hitting a school like they did in Russia years ago i think my kids need to have a few selected plans of action that a little kid could carry out to be as safe as possible.

SIT REP:
One level school, bottom of a valley, main road in front/office/main entrance is front. school rooms are in square "blocks" that stick out of the building. lots of corners. each classroom has many windows and one door leading to the outside. the windows go low to the ground , probably only 2 feet up from the floor/ ground. there is , usually, a half full parking lot facing my kintergadener's room. 9 yo is on the other side of the building from my younger child. his class room door open into an "alcove", where three sides are taken up by other class rooms, the other opens up to the side of a steep hill that has the path to our home. at the rear of the school there is a wide open feild to the left and fenced off ball feilds to right.

i already have a few, basic thoughts for tactics that a 9-10 year old could carry out, with options as well as VERY, VERY basic directions for my 5 yo. but i need to hear from any police, swat, ESU, and other experts that have training in this type of situation. please help me save my kids from the real monsters. -Eric

 

[Thin Black Line]

Pre-paid/pre-programmed cellphones for kids that have just the numbers
you assign. Some FRS commo may be useful, too. These are very cheap.
Explain to the kids that these are not toys and are only to be used in an
emergency. If they play with them during school, they will probably be
taken away. However, this could be helpful to have if your kids and a
few other students are isolated in one part of the building. They could be
talked through a safe path avoiding the BG(s).

Many elementary schools in rural areas are still one level buildings with
kids on the ground floor. If a code is called in, classrooms go into lockdown
which includes teachers locking the doors. There are additional steps the
teachers will take past this which I will not go into detail here. Explain to
your children to listen and follow the teacher's instructions.

Go to your PTA meetings and request the school's security response plan.

Many of the schools I visit have added cameras and security doors since
Beslan. It is also not unusual to have an LEO do a random run through
from time to time. SWAT teams have trained within many of the schools.

 

[borrowedtime69]

Thin Black Line...

thank you VERY much, i didnt realize that so much had been worked out in the school system with this sinario in mind, somewhat comforting. thumbs up! -Eric

 

[WolfMansDad]

You could home school.

Sounds drastic, but the best way to deal with this kind of trouble is to not be there when it happens. Homeschooling is easier in metropolitan areas, where there are lots of other people who do it and plenty of resources. It's harder if you live in the country, but it can still be done. Solves a whole lot of problems, not just the school-shooting issue.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

My advice to my high school daughters: If you hear an unusual noise, like a firecracker or ballon bursting, or anything else that seems out of the ordinary, don't approach in that direction to see what's going on. Move in the opposite direction towards the nearest exit (preferred) or safest place that can either be locked from the inside or has a alternate/potential avenue of escape (such as an exterior window).

 

[AK103K]

Part of the problem your going to encounter is, what you teach your kids will probably conflict with what the school has in mind.

This will get worse as your kids get older and can think and act more for themselves and from what you have discussed and done with them. My kids were always taught (at home) to be independent and think for themselves, and to make decisions and act as best they could on their feet. They were always told they had the right to defend themselves, regardless of anyones "rules". This resulted in a few trips to the school for some "issues".

My youngest son got into a little bit of trouble a couple of years ago(with the school officials, not me ) during a lock down drill at his high school. The schools idea of "safe" was for everyone to huddle in the farthest corner and wait. My son and another student refused to huddle in the corner, and positioned themselves on either side of the door. They both felt that if someone were to come through the door, their best chance was to deal with any threat immediately there, than to die in the huddle in the corner. After the drill they both were reprimanded and we were called to come in.

First and foremost, they were in trouble because they "didnt do as they were told", which is what I think the prime reason for public schools are these days, conditioning our kids to be good followers and subjects. We all need to follow the rules.

I found out later that the police would have considered them "potential targets" as they expected everyone to be in the huddle. Anyone not in the huddle must be the bad guy. I can see their point of view, but I also see it as a potential death sentence for the people in the group if it isnt the police who come through the door.

So what do you do? Let the bad guy kill your kids, or hope the cops are properly trained and dont kill your kids outright? Tough call. Why arent the teachers at the door? They could certainly have a "police dont shoot me " safety vest or code thingie on. Shouldnt they die first protecting our kids?

I still think the answer is teach your kids to think for themselves. Adults are not always right, and all the second guessing aside, they are there while its all going on and have to make decisions on their feet and on their own. Hopefully, you took the time to talk about things and they have a good foundation to go on.

We always did simple "what if" drills with our kids as they were growing up. Anytime, anywhere, for any situation. Its an easy and fun problem solving "game", that makes you both think. Its not all about bad guys, but they fit in there too.

 

[ETXhiker]

I was a second grader during the Cuban Missile Crisis. My parents didn't tell me why they were loading food and water into the trunk of the car, but one of my friends did. I still remember sitting in class and wondering in an atomic bomb would hit before the school day ended. I hesitate to say it was traumatic, but I don't think knowing about it did me any good at the time either.

School shootings are certainly more common than ever before, however they are still statisically slightly more likely than getting hit by a meteor. For a junior high or high school aged kid, I think some planning might be good, along with a big helping of "of course this is not likely to ever happen to you."
For a nine year old, I think you run a risk of some bad psychological effects and lingering fears over something that has only a remote chance of occuring. Teach your son not to talk to strangers or get in their car, but leave school shootings out of the discussion until he is old enough to handle the subject. For every school that something like this happens at, there about a hundred thousand where it does not. Let your kids be innocent as long as practical.

 

[azredhawk44]

For every school that something like this happens at, there about a hundred thousand where it does not. Let your kids be innocent as long as practical.

+1

This is an issue for the adults to handle, not the kids.

We need real plans for responding to threats, not digging our heads in the sand, hiding in the corner/closet/wherever and hoping we don't get sacrificed. Those plans have to be accounted for and responsibility assigned.

Eliminating "school zone = victim zone" would be a great first step. CCW allowed for teachers and staff. When you don't know who has a gun, then pretty soon everyone has a gun and deserves at least a modicum of respect.

Your 9 year old needs to know "stranger danger!" and Eddie Eagle.

Your kids' schools need to have a decisive response plan to protect the children more effectively. If that means playing chicken and installing an exterior alternate exit in every classroom, then so be it. Hard to bottle victims if you can't control the traffic.

But if little Mrs. Johnson might of might not have a Bersa .380 on her and you just don't know, you're much less likely to want to take her classroom hostage IMO.

 

[Thin Black Line]

I found out later that the police would have considered them "potential targets" as they expected everyone to be in the huddle. Anyone not in the huddle must be the bad guy.

And, again, w/o going into detail, the cops may not necessarily be coming
through the door. There are a lot of potential things that can happen to
someone in the wrong place, both lethal and non-lethal.

Flipside, it is a BG or BGs. Yes, they might start shooting as soon as they
come in, or they could be taking hostages, or they could be looking for a
particular person (a single *staff* person they have a grudge with) and
would plan to keep moving through. Hard to tell how that would play out.
A lot of popping along the way up to your room would be a bad sign. A
couple of pops, a code call for lockdown, someone peaks their head thru
the door...who knows. Had your kids been in the most recent school when
something happened there's a lot of possible outcomes. Maybe no one is
killed or maybe everyone in the room is killed or wounded with the BG
inserting another full mag as the cops burst in and kill him.

Again, bottom line, communicate with the school staff --preferably before
there is a problem.

 

[James T Thomas]

perspective

I cannot agree more with AK103K's assesment and advice.

Please reconsider the lock down and huddle strategies.

Our creator has given us two impulses to decide upon when in danger, and I believe He knows what He is doing.

Fight or flight. For your nine year old flight would be the best of course.
Can he make it home on foot from his school? Could you, your wife, or older brother or sister accompany him walking home until he knows the way well enough?

Do you have a trustworthy friend or classmate's home near enough that he could get to? Talk it over with the parents.
I would rather risk my child wandering around somewhere far from home in that most people are still "good;" and you would know that the predator is! at the school building.

You know, there is a reason; "nature" or creator made fish to swim in schools, birds to flock together, zebras to have stripes. A predator has to waste precious moments to pick out the target in a mass of fleeing or escaping victims. Most will make it.

Those species that hide out like a deer, hoping that the predator will pass them by at least have a chance of bounding up and fleeing too. Not so for the confined or entraped prey. Yes, those self sacrificing teachers may give their lives up to defend your child, but in the aftermath, the killing will not have been prevented.

Relying on the SWAT teams or politically controlled responding police is an action that has been discussed many times here on THR, and the conclusion is always -you are responsable for your own safety.

Sir, please attend your school board meetings and Parent Teacher Assoc. meetings and be adamant about having your child free to flee rather than herderd like cattle.

Don't fall for the rhetoric of "corridors" and that type of scare tactic.
Some unfortunate victims may indeed be channeled in corridors, but what about the rest of the school kids? They could be putting distance between themselves and death instead of awaiting it.

Forget about the complex instructions and actions during a crisis. Your child is more apt to follow and remember a simple plan.

Pray for guidance, if you believe in ---.

May you never have to know whether you made the correct decision.

 

[borrowedtime69]

so far...

after reading through your well thought out posts covering many sides of the issue and talking with my police officer brother who regularly trains in the active shooter program i have learned some things.

- Schools and local law enforcement agentcys have worked out the baest response they could come up with for now. lock themselves in their room, stay low, blockade the door, arrange the desks infront of the group of kids that are supposed to be laying low on the floor as a bullet sheild.

- Donot have the children leave as they could be shot by police or the shooters and create a tacticle nightmere for the LEO's during a building sweep.

- give your kid (of appropriate age) a pre-programed kids cell phone to call home if needed.

- if a child ever notices any strangers or known people, kids or adults acting very strangely, they should alert a teacher, safety officer or other authority figure right away.

- Tell your child to try to get to the farthest place place in the room away from the door. be the first one in the huddle and behind all the other kids. i really recomend that parents really press this home to daughters especially. i guess i have a old fasioned veiw of chivalry. if my son/sons are going to die, that they do it protecting a girl/girls as best they could by covering them with their bodies. if they are killed this way, it would be a small comfort that my son went out a hero.

- parents need to go to a rallying point that is set up by the LEO's on the scene, follow their instructions and not make it difficult for them to control the scene. it also may help to voluntteer to help any way you can.

-DO NOT talk with the press during the incedent !! many classrooms have TVs and if the gunman is watching a child may say thats so-n-so's mom or dad, thereby singling out one child as a target.

- go to your school's PTA meetings and get as much info as you can and how you can help your child remember the training in the drills. the schools and police may not tell you every little detail of what their plans are due to secrecy concerns, im ok with that.

well, thats all for now. i really appreciate all of your valuable input along with my brother's, you gave me alot to think about.

Oh yea, a PS to add, Home schooling is unfortunately out of the question, im Norwiegen (= dumb as a rock ) and the Mrs. is far too busy with our business, scouts, and taking care of family. plus, we want our kids to interact on a regular basis with society.

thumbs up, and everybody stay safe out there! -Eric

 

[Thin Black Line]

I cannot agree more with AK103K's assesment and advice.

Please reconsider the lock down and huddle strategies.

Our creator has given us two impulses to decide upon when in danger, and I believe He knows what He is doing.

Fight or flight. For your nine year old flight would be the best of course.
Can he make it home on foot from his school? Could you, your wife, or older brother or sister accompany him walking home until he knows the way well enough?

Again, giving your kid some kind of commo, in addition to whatever the
teacher has, where he/she can go direct to a parent/911 will allow for
some good planning if something happens re: where to go and when it
is safe to. Otherwise, they may run into the BG(s) or get in the
way of the police.

Most of the schools I visit have good old hard doors that are better than
most external doors on peoples' homes, that when locked with a heavy steel
desk pushed up against it are not going to allow access to an adult shooter,
much less the scrawny 14 year old with a grudge and daddy's 9mm.

Now, for those of you thinking about the worst-case-beslan-terrorists-
just-came-to-my-hometown scenario and sending your kids out into the
open, again without going into details, you may have just made them
part of the target rich environment for the BGs.

If you're going to treat this like a military take-over situation, then consider
that soldiers who do not follow the plan are often the one who fill the body
bags --not with the enemy, but often themselves or their buddies.

School staff will know when to bolt the door and when to bolt out of
the room. It amazes me when people assume their 9 year old will know more
about how to handle an attack better than the adult staff who've worked
in that building for 10+ years and actually were part of the SWAT response
plan.

And, without even attending a meeting at the school and even asking
about the response plan, there are parents who assume they know the best
course of action. Before people assume that everyone besides themselves
are idiots, at least talk with the school staff who you entrust your kids to
5 days a week. It's hypocritical and possibly dangerous otherwise to
go it alone when there are other kids beside your own there.

 

[AK103K]

- Tell your child to try to get to the farthest place place in the room away from the door. be the first one in the huddle and behind all the other kids. i really recomend that parents really press this home to daughters especially. i guess i have a old fasioned veiw of chivalry. if my son/sons are going to die, that they do it protecting a girl/girls as best they could by covering them with their bodies. if they are killed this way, it would be a small comfort that my son went out a hero.

I understand little kids having to be instructed a little differently than the older kids, for obvious reasons, but they are also not stupid or incapable of thinking for themselves.

Screw being a hero , I have a real big problem with my kids dying, for any reason, but especially for some stupid PC reason. The huddle mentality is why people will die, and die in numbers. Our kids(and more importantly, our society in general, through our kids) are being taught to submit and not fight for their lives. "Dont piss off the bad man or he will hurt you" Jezz, grow a pair and FIGHT! It is your only chance. He will hurt you anyway. If my kids have to die, I'd rather know they died, fighting for their lives, with their hands around the bad guys throat doing their best, then shot in a mass obeying the "rules". If you fight, you at least have a chance, if you huddle, your going to die.


You HAVE to teach your kids its acceptable to fight when necessary and think for themselves. Its their only chance.(its also our only chance) Once you understand that, your kids will have a much better chance of surviving.

 

[Thin Black Line]

Once you understand that, your kids will have a much better chance of surviving.

Yeah, I'm an Iraq vet, BTDT.

 

[Manedwolf]

Many elementary schools in rural areas are still one level buildings with
kids on the ground floor. If a code is called in, classrooms go into lockdown
which includes teachers locking the doors.

Yeah, too bad for any kids still in the hallways. They're on the other side of the watertight door to die.

Another part of this is that the kids are supposed to huddle and be as silent as possible, the teachers as well. Like...oh....PREY ANIMALS in the grass when a predator comes around?

It also coldly accepts that the killer will break into some classrooms, and some kids might or will be killed, just not all of them. Just like prey animals. Be silent and hope that the predator eats others of your multitude, not you.

Heaven forbid they allow teachers to volunteer for defensive firearms training. Nope. The kids are learning to be good little prey animals. Not human beings.

 

[Joe Demko]

As it happens, I am the Emergency Preparedness Coordinator for my school. I've been involved every step of the way in drawing up our plans and policies in coordination with Law Enforcement.
If you teach your kid to disregard the instructions from the teacher during an emergency, your kid's death is on your head. So is the death of anybody else who gets whacked trying to save your kid. Do you teach your kid to disregard instructions during firedrills too?
Any kid who goes bolting off on his own during a shooter-in-the-building situation stands a good chance of running right into that shooter. Barricading in the classroom out of direct lines of fire from doors or windows is the best strategy.

 

[Thin Black Line]

Ok, here's some food for thought for those of you advocating fleeing outside
ASAP:

October 7, 8:09 am: Xxxx Xxxxx, a 13-year-old boy, is wounded as he arrives at Benjamin Tasker Middle School in Bowie, Maryland, in Prince George's County.

Happened outside. Anyone recall the context of that shooting?

How about another:

On March 24th, 1998 two boys, Mitchell Johnson (13) and Andrew Golden (11), opened fire on their classmates in Jonesboro, AR. At Westside Middle school, the boys allegedly pulled the fire alarm at 12:41pm, making about 125 students exit the building. As the students and teachers exited the building, Johnson and Golden opened fire from the nearby bushes. In the end, 10 people were wounded, 4 students and one teacher were killed. Local authorities arrived on the scene almost immediately with paramedics and rescue vehicles. The two boys were apprehended.

Digesting those real scenarios yet?

 

[kfranz]

Yeah, too bad for any kids still in the hallways. They're on the other side of the watertight door to die.

Yeah, the schools couldn't possibly have considered that scenario, and wouldn't have been near smart enough to perhaps build in a "do a hall check before you lock the door" portion of the plan....

Every situation is different. There is no "right" answer until the situation is over and we know what actually happened. Limited school access is the first step. I'm curious as to how the most recent CO shooter gained access.

 

[ETXhiker]

So far, we're talking about what to do AFTER some nutjob goes on a rampage. From Columbine on down, the one thing most of these attacks have in common, is that someone knew the perp was likely to do something crazy, but no one did anything about it.

Anyboby want to bet that when the facts are known about the killer from yesterday's attack, that there were opportunities to lock this guy up in a prison or mental ward before he hurt someone?

 

[Thin Black Line]

Breaking News

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2507554

CAZENOVIA, Wis. Sep 29, 2006 (AP)— The principal at Weston School was shot Friday morning by a former student who entered the school armed with multiple weapons, WKOW-TV reported.

The district told WKOW that Principal John Klang was shot, but would not confirm his condition. The station reported that the school is in lockdown.

People who answered the phones at the Sauk County Sheriff's Department and the Weston School District did not immediately comment to The Associated Press.

Richland County Sheriff Chief Deputy Tom Hougan was at the scene outside the southwest Wisconsin school, but would not confirm the details because it was not in his jurisdiction.

"The students are safe," Hougan told the AP. "The scene is secure."

I said in another thread that when these things start happening (school and
factory shootings) that the already-loose screws tend to come out of
the wood work. And, YES, there are ALWAYS warning signs before this
stuff happens!!!

 

[AJ Dual]

Probably the biggest thing to tell your kid is to think for themself. And tell them that you'll back anything they do to ensure their safety. No matter how much trouble they get into with the school, they won't be in trouble with you.

I think it was Dateline NBC or 20/20 where a security expert (and a cooperative and surprisingly non-PC school) was trying to impress this point.

That said, the lockdown isn't the worst thing in the world. Most schools have institutional archetecture, concrete walls, narrow or high windows. Heavy solid core doors with small windows or wire reinforced glass, commercial grade door hardware etc. Other than being trapped, the average school room is quite hardened as compared to most residential construction. That is a plus.

If the room is truly locked, dark, and the students are keeping out of sight of the door window (if any), the active shooter in search of body count may well pass up a room in search of more certain pickings. So the lockdown strategy is not completely without merit. So in that sense, the "lockdown" is okay, if it's the best you can do. Like being stuck in a upper story classroom with nowhere to go etc. It's absolutely better than running through the halls.

However the point is, don't follow the lockdown protocol blindly.

If you search the news shows websites for the past year, you might find this segment online.

By "thinking for yourself" I mean: If the school has a real "lockdown" and not a drill, and your kid is closer to an outside door than the dead-end room the teacher is trying to herd everyone into, ignore the teacher and GO FOR THE OUTSIDE AND RUN!

If you're stuck in a lockdown room, and it's on the first floor, take the next step, chuck a computer monitor or a chair through a window and GET OUT.

It's a common ingrained trait to follow authority or whatever the group is doing in a frightening or sudden situation, and that's not always the best answer. Even in extreme circumstances it's hard to get people to do extreme things.

 

[Joe Demko]

Do you absolve the school district, teachers, and LE of any and all liability if your kid "thinks for himself" and gets killed?

 

[Otherguy Overby]

Joe Demko:

Do you absolve the school district, teachers, and LE of any and all liability if your kid "thinks for himself" and gets killed?

Would you be willing to assume liability if your strategy didn't work?

The perception that plans work often ends soon after the bullets start flying.

 

[nighthawk2099]

Ok, here's some food for thought for those of you advocating fleeing outside
ASAP:

Quote:
October 7, 8:09 am: Xxxx Xxxxx, a 13-year-old boy, is wounded as he arrives at Benjamin Tasker Middle School in Bowie, Maryland, in Prince George's County.

Happened outside. Anyone recall the context of that shooting?

Yea, if that was when I think it was, it was the Sniper Shooting in Bowie. The boy was getting out of his mother/grandmother/ride to school. Everyone was getting off of buses and entering the building.

Not really the same situation we are discusing. This happened outside yes, but there was no lock down situation or some 14 year old walking down the hall popping off shots at the first thing that sticks it's head out. I can understand where you are heading at.

Each lockdown stituation is going to be different. In the case of the sniper, somebody was going to be the target before the lockdown happened. In that case, everyone inside out of view was acceptable. In the case of somebody in the school with a gun, getting everyone out would be my #1 priority (as safe as possible), unless the gunman is between you and the way out. In that case, barracading is your only option.

My wife is a teacher in a small school. Her first priority is to make sure the kids are safe and protect them by any means neccesary. If she can't get them out, then barracade in a classroom. If the gunman decides to try and enter, stop him any way she can, even if it means loosing her life to save theirs. There's another thread about teachers/staff CCW, I'm all for it, with the right trainning. One well prepared Staff person can stop the situation well before it really gets started.

We have all dicussed it many times. How long after the first shot does it take the LEO to get to the scene? Now, think how many huddled kids could die if the gunman really wanted to just kill people. There is no real win/win situation. Chances are that someone is going to get hurt if not die, we can only do the best we can to keep the body count to a low. No, it's not the kids job to think about these things or plan ways to avoid them, that is the staff's job and they need to plan as best they can. They need to think for themselves and not be sheeple. Just because the rest of the world says "LOCK DOWN" in all situations, doesn't mean that it is the best course of action in ALL situations.

**** ok, I'm getting off the soapbox now.....who's next?

 

[Thin Black Line]

Would you be willing to assume liability if your strategy didn't work?

The perception that plans work often ends soon after the bullets start flying.

Lovely, hope this doesn't degenerate into the usual one-liner comebacks
that we Americans are so good it.

Ok. There was my one-liner. Here's the reality of "plans" --they serve as
guides. It doesn't mean they don't change and aren't altered on the fly.
Be glad that an ER team follows a plan when injured people come in. We
also have a plan when our convoys are hit in (insert desert cr@phole
location here) so that more people come out alive rather than dead.
If everyone decided to high-tail it in which direction was most conventient
at the moment or charge the enemy, I can guarantee you there would be
more body bags coming home and more dead civies in the streets.

So who should change the plan? The OIC who's actually trained under the
original or Joe "I haven't even attended a school function and now I'm in
a psycho-babble state because my kid is somewhere in the building" Shmo?

I'm not riding anyone here as being an idiot, but quite frankly I've run into
my share of people who've lost digits, limbs, and family members because
someone thought they knew what they were doing at the time. And, usually
it's been someone who really didn't know jack, but thought they were
because they saw something once about it on the TV or read it in a book.
Well, more likely the TV. And I think some people have seen this one once
too often to be basing their "individual crisis response plan" on it:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1_I4WgBfETc

The Columbine shooting and the Beslan incident are examples of places that
did not have a freakin plan. Quite frankly many US schools didn't
take theirs seriously until after Beslan. Others were not until something
less severe happened in their own school. I know this for a fact.

My point is find out what kind of plan your school has rather than assume
whatever you come up with is automatically better. Find out which agencies
are suppose to respond and if LEOs have actually trained in your school.
If there's no plan, or not much of one, get involved and make sure
one gets put in rather than just worrying about protecting your own kin's skin.

In the case of somebody in the school with a gun, getting everyone out would be my #1 priority (as safe as possible), unless the gunman is between you and the way out.

Consider gunmen and running outside in the open as something
not so good either.

On some other thread, I stated that one of the principals I knew not too
long ago did CCW at his school and this was before Beslan. Every
teacher packing presents it's own problematic scenarios. A handful of
random staff (like the airline pilots) at a school is possible. Armed guards
at the school entrance is also not a sole answer (they sometimes are the
first to get killed).