Tell me about limp wristing.

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Small addition - guns (IMO) like P3AT and R9 - being so small and relatively light do suffer from limp wristing problems - if the energy of recoil is ''soaked up'' by a flaccid grip and arm, then they cannot cycle fully every time.

Only my 2c - but this is no fault per se of the gun - it just goes with the territory on real small pieces. ''Price to pay'' shall we say.
 
P95Carry,

Since most of us carry the Mouse guns as bugs, it means, that if we ever need them, the fecal material has already impacted the rotary air impelling device and things are not going to good for us.

With that in mind, it seems that a gun that is unreliable, because of the grip we have on it, is a poor choice. I mean if you have to hold it nice and tight to get it to function, what happens if you have to shoot weak handed, or even, Heaven forbid, with blood on your hands or in a weakened state.

I stick with my statement, if it doesn't work no matter how you hold it, get it fixed, if it can't be fixed, get rid of it and get something that works.

This is only my opinion, after all it is your life on the line, therefor it is your decision.

JohnKSa,

The same goes for large caliber, polymer framed handguns. Why would you want to carry a gun for self defense that, if you couldn't get your proper grip on, won't work? (At least if a steel or metal framed gun jams, you have a heavier club to swing.)

Your life, your decision, just doesn't make sense to me.

No disrespect intended to either of you. I am honestly trying to understand why anyone would want to carry a sd weapon that may be unreliable when it is needed most.

I am aware that neither of you said you carried these respective guns as sd weapons. But many people do.

DM
 
No disrespect intended to either of you. I am honestly trying to understand why anyone would want to carry a sd weapon that may be unreliable when it is needed most.
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Better to have a gun that you need to grip correctly than to not have one at all. I love 1911s, but most 1911s don't have this problem simply because they are as heavy as bricks. While a light, small gun may not work 100% when not gripped correctly, an R9 or P3AT in the pocket beats a full-size 1911 in the safe any day.
 
Mulliga,

I agree that a gun in the pocket is better than a gun in the safe.

I just think that the gun in the pocket should be a gun that works.

If it is a matter of size and weight, why not get a light-weight, large caliber revolver and have the best of both worlds, small/light and dependable?

I can't believe that I just recommended a revolver, I must be getting old. :eek:

DM
 
why not get a light-weight, large caliber revolver and have the best of both worlds, small/light and dependable?
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I love them (I carry a 642 pretty much all the time), but pocket revolvers have their downsides.

They're fat - they don't conceal well in small pockets, and even in some shapes of medium pockets. The slimmer pocket autos conceal better, IMHO.

They have limited capacity and power. The PM9 and R9 can hold 6+1 rounds of 9mm ammo, besting .38+P loads by a large margin. Reloads are also easier, and one-hand drills are much easier with a P3AT or a PM9 than with a revolver. I suppose you could mitigate the power disadvantage by going for a .357 snubbie, but those are rather unpleasant to shoot...really unpleasant IMHO...;)

They're difficult to shoot well, at least in my experience. The amount of grip strength required to hold a typical snubbie and get a decent DA squeeze is about equivalent to the amount of strength needed to not limpwrist an auto.
 
So let me get this straight.

A properly made gun should not jam due to limp wristing. Therefore if it DOES jam it just be replaced. Correct?
 
Amadeus,

A properly made gun should not jam due to limp wristing. Therefore if it DOES jam it just be replaced. Correct?
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You got it, if it can't be fixed it should be replaced.

Would you keep a car that doesn't run and can't be fixed? What about one who's brakes only work if you put your foot on the peddle just right? How about a furnace, a telephone, or a computer that won't work and can't be fixed?

Of course not.

So why would you have a tool that your life, and the lives of your loved ones, may depend on, that doesn't work?

What sense of security do you get from carrying a gun that doesn't work?

I stick with my statement, if it doesn't work no matter how you hold it, get it fixed, if it can't be fixed, get rid of it and get something that works.

A gun that won't cycle unless it is gripped just so or held vertical or any other trick that may apply is worthless as a self defense gun. At best you can maybe count on one shot, before it jams. You would be better off with a derringer, at least with most derringers you would be able to have two shots.

I don't understand why some of you are defending firearms that don't work. Would you carry a pistol you weren't strong enough to cycle the slide on? How about a gun you weren't strong enough to pull the trigger on?

What about a gun that the magazine falls out of after every shot? Of course you wouldn't. A gun that fails to function, no matter how it is held, is no better. It is unreliable. It will give you a false sense of security. It may cost you your life. At the very worst, it may cost the life of one of your loved ones.

This is serious stuff. If the gun is a ccw, would you consider carrying a Jennings or a Lorcin? Of course not, because they are unreliable. So why would you carry a Kel-Tec, Seecamp, Glock, or any other fire arm that is unreliable? (I mentioned Kel-tec and Seecamp because they are small and Glock because it is Polymer, not because I think they are unreliable.)

If the gun is for fun and you don't mind if it embarrases you at the range, then it doesn't matter if it jams. But you'll have a lot more fun with one that works.

Just remember, if it jams on you at the range, when you are relaxed and have the time to do everything just right, it will definitely jam on you under stress.

DM
 
Mulliga,

My 2" .357 is fun too shoot, especially when it is kind of dark out. :evil: I took a new shooter out a couple of weeks ago and after firing .22, 9x18 Makarov, .38spcl and .45acp I asked if she wanted to try the .357. I told her it had a lot more recoil than anything else she shot that day but it wouldn't hurt her. She said "Ssssure".

Well she made it through the whole cylinder full, all six rounds. The funny part was that after every shot she took a step backwards. (We were at an outdoor range and she was the only one shooting). I told her that wasn't required and she said it was to get her balance back.

By the way, the link for the rifle and pistol club doesn't work.

DM
 
A properly made gun should not jam due to limp wristing. Therefore if it DOES jam it just be replaced. Correct?
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I vote, "It depends."

My full-size CZ (basically the same size/weight as a Combat Commander) will not jam from limpwristing - I can fire it sideways, left-handed, with a two finger grip, and it will still work fine.

My subcompact CZ isn't like that. It has a 3" barrel and is much lighter and smaller than the full-size (think Officer's size). It can fail-to-eject (stovepipe) if you grip it loosely enough. It won't jam every shot, nor every mag, but once in awhile under those conditions...

I think of it primarily as a training issue. Pump shotguns can be shortstroked, as can bolt action rifles. Does that mean they should not be used for defense? Of course not.

In your case, with a 1911, though, I vote that something's wrong with the gun.

By the way, the link for the rifle and pistol club doesn't work.
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I know, we're having some website problems. :eek:
 
They're fat - they don't conceal well in small pockets, and even in some shapes of medium pockets.
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Here's a newsflash for some folks.
You don't alter your firearms to fit your fashions.
You alter your fashion to fit your firearms.
Of course, for some people, making their ass look good is more important than keeping it alive.

Reloads are also easier,
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Not by much.
And by the time you need to reload, IF you need to reload, you should be behind cover thereby making that tiny time difference it moot.
Also, once you load with a speedloader or speed-strip you're done with it. It can go bye-bye and you don't have to worry about the lint that your extra ammo ingested from your pocket tying up the cylinder after a couple of rounds.

They have limited capacity and power. The PM9 and R9 can hold 6+1 rounds of 9mm ammo, besting .38+P loads by a large margin.
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On paper, perhaps.
But you'll find that in the real world the difference is insignificant.

one-hand drills are much easier with a P3AT or a PM9 than with a revolver.
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But revolvers don't have failure to feed or failure to eject malfunctions. And those malfunctions are definately a two hand drill.
Speaking of one-hand drills. Fire a revolver from inside a pocket and chances are you can fire it again. And again.
Fire a automatic from inside a pocket and chances are you'll have a single shot pistol.

Also if the bad-guy is right up on you, you can press the muzzle of a revolver against his or her body and the gun will still fire. In fact, for a contact wound, buzzle blast is your friend.

Don't get me wrong. I love automatics. But both autos and revolvers pretty much even out on the pros and cons. Both are good but neither is perfect.

Use what works best for you.

Practice Safe
Practice Hard
Practice Often
 
The same goes for large caliber, polymer framed handguns. Why would you want to carry a gun for self defense that, if you couldn't get your proper grip on, won't work?
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I don't carry one. ;) (But I have shot 'a few' :D, and they're definitely much more prone to the problem than other pistols.)

Anyway, all guns have limitations. Any person who says differently is working harder at evangelizing than informing. One of the things that makes people different is what kind of limitations they will tolerate in their firearms.

This thread is a perfect example of that. Read through it carefully thinking about the different kinds of firearms being touted and knocked. Not one of them is without some sort of limitation, and each of them has some pertinent advantages. It's a trade-off...just like any other decision in the real world.
 
JohnKSa,

It's a trade-off...just like any other decision in the real world.
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Yep it's a trade off.

I carry a Ruger P90 and I have fired it in every attitude from normal, all around the clock. I have fired it upside down with my little finger on the trigger, strong hand or weak hand, it doesn't matter. I have not been able to make it fail to function. I have had tiny women fire it, brand new shooters have fired it, and no one has been able to make it fail to function. It is almost boring.

The trade off I make for this reliability is the size and weight of the P90. It is not quite as heavy as a full size 1911 but is larger.

I figure when my life may depend on it, I want something that will work, and I will carry the extra weight in the hope that I never have to use it. But I know that if I do need it that it will work until I run out of ammo, no matter how I hold it.

I just don't understand why people would go through the process of getting a license to carry and then settle for a gun that may not work when they need it most. I mean, if you suggested that someone carry a .22 or .25, one that works every time, they would most likely tell you to "get lost, it's not enough gun". Yet many of these same people will gladly carry a gun that missfires or jams 3 or 4 times out of every box of shells. I just don't get it.

You're right, everything you do in life has a price. The price I pay for total reliability in my CCW is lugging around a little extra weight. Well worth it to me.

DM
 
I just don't understand why people would go through the process of getting a license to carry and then settle for a gun that may not work when they need it most. I mean, if you suggested that someone carry a .22 or .25, one that works every time, they would most likely tell you to "get lost, it's not enough gun". Yet many of these same people will gladly carry a gun that missfires or jams 3 or 4 times out of every box of shells. I just don't get it.
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It's not really a mystery. It's actually quite simple.
Those who know me in person know what I think about this.
I could even explain it, however it would result in my being dunked in Ether and set aflame if not outright bannishment from THR.
 
You're right, everything you do in life has a price. The price I pay for total reliability in my CCW is lugging around a little extra weight. Well worth it to me.
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exactly, i carry my taurus 24/7 and I too cannot make that thing jam. I know its a little large for carry by comparison to many other guns but i KNOW it will always work.
 
Interesting. I just tried a 24/7 and could not get it to fire one magazine without jamming.
 
Occasional stovepipes

I have 3 polymer autos for concealed carry, a P3AT, Kahr PM9 and a Cobra Patriot 45. The first two I've done most of my summer carry with, and both are 100% reliable, with all loads. The Patriot, being a little larger than the PM9, is only useful as a pocket gun for some pockets. It also occasionally gets a stovepipe on the last round only. This has not been a problem so far, since with this particular gun I have to pull back the slide anyhow to feed from a new clip. I'm not too suprised it does this, from what I've read here, as it is only a 20 ounce 45. I have to admit I'd be happier with it if it was 100%. Otherwise it shoots very well, has a nice fit to my hand. I carry it with Double Taps, which are not unpleasant to shoot.

I just picked up a IWB holster for the Patriot so I can carry it more using a jacket or sweater (the weather already starting to cool off here in Michigan).

Lou
 
I have experienced plenty of occurrences of shooter induced malfunctions as a PMI in the USMC. "Limp Wristing" usually happens when the shooter is almost dropping the gun and running away scared on recoil. It happened with both the M9's and 1911's. The 1911's we had were in no way "fine tuned" specimens. There are plenty of things that a shooter can do to contribute to the malfunction of a semi auto pistol. That is why we had familiarization fires and certifications. Training. The examples that I have seen were extreme and these novice first time shooters could probably have screwed up about any pistol.
 
Following on this thread, I ran a limpwrist test on 4 handguns and they all jammed:

1. Glock 19
2. SVI (.40S&W)
3. Beretta 92fs
4. Walther p99 (.40S&W)

The hardest to jam was the Beretta as I really had to relax that wrist till the gun was pointing down. Easiest to jam was the Glock 19 as even changing my wrist tension through the recoil cycle affected it and also how it ejected the casing. When I changed the recoil spring from the factory 18 lbs. to 15lbs. it became harder to jam and pushed more into my hands than flipped. The SVI was the surprise as due to the cost and design of this gun thought this would not be possible. Well, physics don't lie...
 
Wish someone would post a picture of limpwristing.

My Glock 19s and 1911s will function perfectly using only thumb behind the grip and finger on the trigger. Can't hit the X ring at 50 yards, but inside a telephone booth, they would be deadly.

At the range where I shoot a lot, I have had some of the range commandos talk about 'liimpwristing' but none can ever demonstrate how it's done.

somebody post a picture, I am always willing to learn something new. Wonder if it would work better with a blow back gun like a lorcin or jennings?

Bluesbear,

If you try firing a revolver from inside a coat pocket, have someone standing by with a garden hose. :fire:
 
I have made dozens of extra "pockets" from old blue jeans and worn-out/outgrown overcoats.
I have used those in tests for pocket firing with an old leather shop apron as body protection.

In reality it would hurt but in a life or death situation I'd deal with with it.
 
Recoil Spring's and malfunct

in .45 ACP, 185-grain/1150fps loadings seem to consistently give more trouble than heavier, slower loadings. A contributor is often that the owner mistakenly installs a heavy recoil spring for such ammunition...which is backward.
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The weight of the round should determine the weight of the recoil spring. e.g in the govt model 1911 the included 16# spring is usually thought of as being just a bit too loose; one of the first mods is usually to put a heavier spring (like the 18.5# from Wolf gun springs). This assumes you are shooting 230gr round. If you are shooting 185gr, 14# or the milspec 16# is a better bet to avoid malfunctions.

The round weight seems to have more to do with which spring works than with how many "+" or "P" marks are on the box. At least this is what quite a bit of playing with different bullet weights and powder loads against different springs has lead me to believe. 98% or more of the malfunctions I've had with a 1911 or a Browning Hi-Power have been with innapropriate recoil or magazine springs, regardless of wrist stiffness or lack thereof. :scrutiny:

cheers,

-Sean
 
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98% or more of the malfunctions I've had with a 1911 or a Browning Hi-Power have been with innapropriate recoil or magazine springs,
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Give that man a Cee-gar!

It's is such a simple concept that so few seem to be able to grasp.

There is a reason that specifications were specified. ;)
 
I have a desert eagle in 50 AE, you cannot limp wrist it or it will hurt you, and it will stovepipe every time, I dont think it is a shortcoming of the gun, just error on my part, plus it is not a carry pistol so I dont fear for my life because of this. I also dont believe that you may not have time to get a proper grip on your weapon, If you dont have the 1/4 second it takes to tighten your grip, or even be sure you are on target then you shouldnt be pulling the trigger. Maby these are design flaws, or operator error, but I dont think I have an unreliable weapon if I have bad technique. Anyway most any handgun I have fired will have some sort of problem if you hold it like a 4 y.o. child. just my 2 cents...
 
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