Terrible Real-Life Dilemma

[Ohio Gun Guy]

I think yours is one of the few real life examples of a firearm being more dangerous than not having one.....

Please dont confuse what I'm saying this shouldnt be a mandatory government imposed solution.......

My thoughts are that at a certain age, if there is a gun in the house the people in it have to be trusted not to harm themselves or others. I have kids, and I lock my guns up. At somepoint however I will start the familiarization process. You can try to convince yourself that you can devise a system where he can't get them......but I really dont think so. Either through one mis-step, or given enough time and determination he could figure out any system you devise. I just dont think a teen (or near teen) wont at some point get access to a firearm stored in the house. They are smarter than they act..... (I still remember) That is where typically the judgment portion comes into play. If his judgment or mental status can't be trusted then I would thinks seriously about not having a gun in that house (Or do some absolutely extraordinary measures....which will cause you stress and likely negate the benifit).

 

[trickyasafox]

I think 9MMare gave great advice.

As painful as it is, some help cannot be given by good intentions and love alone. It may make the boy's life harder now, but if he doesn't get the help he needs and deserves he has a high chance just ending up an institutionalized statistic later in life.

The child's issues will not go away, they are not just growing pains or a fad. Its a tough decision to face- but for his sake and the sake of your whole family, its something that needs to be addressed now.

My thoughts are with your family and I wish you the best.

In the mean time, I think you have made the best decision by not loaning any firearms.

 

[rondog]

He will not be able to respond to any treatment in an environment where the "consensus understanding" is that the boy is responsible for his father's death. No family member or therapist or doctor will help him see that he was not if the family consensus is that he was and he is part of that family. In this case, more distance and more disinterested caregivers are better until he (and the family) understand with both heart and mind that he is not responsible for Dad's death.

Where on Earth did you come up with that? You should read the original post again.

 

[mfcmb]

Two ideas:

1. Get her one of those big flashlights that's basically a car headlight with a big battery. Throws a blinding beam, yet can't be turned against her as a weapon.

2. Have her look into "EMPowerplus" from truehope.com. It's a special blend of supplements that come in a bottle of capsules. It's designed to give the body the micronutrients it needs to create its own neurotransmitters, needed for normal and healthy brain function, and has proven effective in a wide range of mental disorders. It had a profound effect on one of my kids, who was able to get off multiple psychiatric meds by taking it instead.

Good luck to them!

 

[SomeKid]

The thing that I wish everyone would keep in mind when they read of some "nut case" doing something bizarre is that some of them really are genuinely troubled, and despite what they did, they deserve some degree of compassion.

No, there are limits where there can be no compassion, and regardless of their mental illness they ought to be put down like the dangerous animal they have become. For the sake of the kid, I hope he can understand that, and get his act together.

 

[gunnutery]

My thoughts and prayers are with your family. I have several thoughts based on my own experience and on what others have said. We currently have an 11yo living in a residential facillity. He was setting multiple fires in the house as well as teasing the younger children and animals to the point of being terrified of being in the same room as him.

I would definately say that military school is out of the question. They are very expensive even after any scholarships. IIRC, there are some out there that do speciallize in mental disorders, but it still costs around $20,000-80,000 per year if not more for some.

A dog COULD work if the child in question doesn't target them. We had to get rid of a cat and dog. If she ended up getting a dog, it could be just one more thing she has to watch to make sure her son doesn't go after it. On the other hand, if he does okay with it, it could be great therapy as well as a responsibility booster.

As far as weapons go, I would say the best option anyone has thrown out so far is chemical weapons or a pistol with a magazine disconnect with the mag on her person. If she chose the pistol route, I would suggest that she only keep the one magazine in the house(AND on her person).

It obviously depends on the state she's in, in terms of handing the boy over to the state (which I think is the wisest move she can make right now if at all possible). In my state there is something called CINA (child in need of assistance). With his violent behaviors and suicide attempts, he would probably definately quallify if there is something similar in her state. It may also allow him to be on some type of medicade if he's not on it already (which would help pay for residential facillities). The other thing to watch out for is some states charge the parents who turn their children over to the state with neglect or child abuse of some sort (possibly even if the child has attempted murder, don't quote me on that one since it's not my state that does that). When it comes down to it, she needs to think of her well being as well as her 4yo (not that she doesn't already), but his behavior is really bringing down the well being of the entire family if she's having trouble providing for them based on his behavior. I'm very glad to hear that she has a job that can work around that finally.

I wish the best for everyone involved.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Forget ever having any firearm while he is living in your house. He is now old enough, strong enough and smart enough to defeat any attempt to hide or store a weapon where he cannot get it.

The only solution I see is like said above. Turn him over to state care. It is possible he is beyond help.

Agreed. Unfortunately in this case the largest threat to the family, by far, is from inside the home, not from outside. If the kid truly has head full of bad wiring (and that sounds like the case), no amount of well intentioned effort is likely to ever fix that.

A firearm has no place in this home.

 

[Schutzen]

Firearms are definitely out! The consequences to the boy, your family, and even to your community are way too sever even to contemplate this action.

One suggestion would be you supplementing her rent allowing her to move into an upgraded her neighborhood.

Also, be sure the boy gets professional mental health treatment. I am not familiar with the system in your area, but most if not all states have mental health services for children of low income families.

 

[Grassman]

+1 on getting a dog. Then maybe a safe, with the pre warning of the dog barking she could calmly get to the safe and retrieve the gun. That would give her a little time as to not be surprised by an intruder.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Unfortunately, she is in a triage situation. Which is the greater danger, the child or outside influences. While a safe may give a bit of comfort it's an illusion. Kids discover their parents' secrets rather quickly, as I recall it took me two weeks to discover the combination/key hiding place to Dad's safe.

I get the feeling that any dog she acquires will either turn out to be extremely shy or overly vicious from the abuse it's likely to suffer from the child in question making it either worthless for the job or an added danger.

I'm sorry, but if I were in that situation I would in no way shape or form introduce a firearm into the house. If I couldn't trust this kid with a baseball bat available there is no way I would take the chance of a handgun or rifle. I would have to take my chances.

 

[msb45]

I'm also sorry to hear of your situation.

In terms of weapons the first thing I'd get is a fire exstinghiser (sp ?). If she's out in the woods a fire response is a long way off, a burglar getting a rash of CO2 will be slowed down. For $20 it'll do double duty.

Next step up would be to go to an outdoor hiking web site and get a big can of bear spray. If it'll stop a bear it'll stop someone. Not an optimal solution but it'll not likely be misused.

 

[Shadow Man]

I have to agree; the introduction of a firearm, or even a less-than-lethal device into the house is a bad, bad idea. If at 10, this boy is violent enough to swing a baseball bat around, I hate to think what he will be like when he gets older and stronger and a massive hormone dump gets introduced to his system.

I would have to take my chances.

I don't think this woman can take her chances. She needs to get this boy help, and now. And no, I'll agree, military school isn't the right option, at least not yet. Get him some help from some good doctors. I know there may be a financial situation involved, but this isn't going to get any better without professional help. Get him to some doctors, get him squared away, then send him to a military school. He will need the discipline, once he can be trusted around people.

 

[nicholst55]

I'd say a big yellow lab is an option.

Not. Labs are notoriously mild-mannered, and a serious thief/miscreant will likely not be intimidated by one. Sounds like more of a job for a German/Belgain Sheperd or a Rottweiler.

And I agree; the boy needs professional intervention before he kills or seriously injures someone else or himself. It's a crappy situation all around, but a hard decision needs to be made. Rest assured that the boy will NOT improve over time if left to his own devices. Seek professional help.

 

[Yoda]

For all posters...

Professional help HAS been sought, and he had two long stays in residential treatment facilities at state expense. It's plain that the State of Florida recognizes that they can help now or deal with bigger issues later.

Agreed: He cannot have access to ANY guns.

Back in the days of "packing.org," I once mentioned that I had had his father committed for similar behavior, and some of the posters there were pretty vocal in telling me that I had made a mistake, because those involuntary commitments would cost him his gun rights. Making hard decisions like that are one of the less pleasant duties of fatherhood.

- - - Yoda

 

[03Shadowbob]

I am against getting an animal for her. If this kid is trying to hit people with a bat then the animal will be the one to likely be the getting abused which in turn presents many more problems.
Guns are out. Knives are out. That leaves chem sprays and electronic devices.
I feel for you and any others that go through this. I couldn't imagine having to make the decision to put my kid in government care. Not sure I would.
This may sound out there but has she tried church? If not, it may be worth a shot depending on your views on religion.

 

[wishin]

Yoda, I really feel for you and the predicament you're in. However, it appears to me that your grandson needs to be committed before he kills or seriously injures somebody, or himself. Good luck.

 

[akodo]

it's a tough call

Part of the reason I am against Government intervention on many levels is there are too many variables.

I do NOT believe that each and every household is safer with a gun. I believe that only those living in that household can properly come up with the answer to that question.

Based on what you have said, I would suggest there be no gun kept in this house. However, a stungun or other less-lethal device might well be the trick.

Finally, just remember, removing access to firearms means there are less firearms related suicides...but total suicide rates remain unchanged. If a person is suicidal, there are many other choices for them as well.

 

[NinjaFeint]

No, there are limits where there can be no compassion, and regardless of their mental illness they ought to be put down like the dangerous animal they have become. For the sake of the kid, I hope he can understand that, and get his act together.

This just disappoints me.

 

[MarineOne]

Not only are you being a responsible gun owner, but you're also a responsible parent and grandparent for stepping up to help handle this. It takes a grand set of stones to do this and not shirk from one part of your life to shore up another. Kudos to you, my friend.

There really isn't an option for SD for your daughter unless you've considered something like ADT or the LifeAlert system with something she can wear around her neck or wrist.

I know that "when seconds count, the police are minutes away" but obviously she can't have a gun in the house, and I would fear that during one of his "episodes" the dog might attack him. Animals work off their senses more than we humans do, and there have been instances of household animals acting bizzarre during epileptic seizures ..... I'm not sure if you want to deal with your grandson being bitten by a large dog, and inevitably dealing with selling/giving away a now "known" biter.



Kris

 

[iiibdsiil]

This is a hard situation. I know that no one wants to put their kid in a home full time, but I'd look into it. I have a friend with a mentally handicap kid, and the wife refuses to put him in a home even though it would probably be the best for everyone. But, this isn't a mental health forum, it's a gun forum. You know what the right answer is better than any of us.

I'd look into some mace or something to that extent. Don't let the kid know and hide it halfway decently. I also like the gun with no mag in it. I wouldn't leave one in the chamber and depend on the mag disconnect though.

 

[blackops]

Military School. End of story.

Great idea. Get the kid out of hair, let her stabilize her life, and put some dicipline into the kid.

Get a dog.

Another alternative, but would the boy try to harm the dog is the question.

What about a fingerprint lock safe? Some aren't as expensive as you would think. I say send the kid off to Military school, get a dog, and get her a pistol with the fingerprint lock.

 

[Alex23]

Yoda, your story is tragic but I tend to agree that the boy needs some serious long term residential psychiatric treatment. If he's going after his own mother at age 10 with a baseball bat it is only a matter of time before he gets bigger and stronger and does some serious violence to her or someone else.

And I think having any guns anywhere nearby would be a potentially fatal mistake, safe or no safe.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

"Magna trigger plus a good lockbox.

http://www.tarnhelm.com/magna-trigge...ty/magna1.html " The Magna Trigger Safety thing is good against a snatch, but if Junior has time to take the grips off, the safety mechanism can easily be removed, allowing the gun to fire wiout the magnetic rings. You can also get the gun to fire by slamming it on its side, and manually cocking the hammer at the same time, bringing it to full cock. Then it will fire without using the rings, even if the mechanism is stil lin place. The slam to the side jerks the the flange that blocks the trigger bar out of the way. This is all too much to know or do during a snatch from a holster, but with being unattended, and time on his hands, a person might figure this stuff out on theri own.

 

[MisterMike]

I think yours is one of the few real life examples of a firearm being more dangerous than not having one.....

I think that's the key here. First, let me offer my condolences and sympathy for what your family is experiencing.

The first thing that comes to mind is the safety of the four-year-old, then the mom. It sounds like there is not enough money for your daughter in law to handle this on her own. Seriously, I would consider having her contact the local child welfare authorities and seek their help. The boy either needs major medical intervention, removal from the home (for the safety of his younger sister), or both.

We all tend to seek facile solutions to a situation like this--a dog, military school, "tough love," whatever--but it's seldom as easy as that. The family history of suicide and your grandson's suicidal and, potentially, homicidal conduct make it imperative that you get him out of the house. We all pay our taxes for those in real need . . . this is the time and place to avail yourselves of those services.

Until you either have the ten-year-old relocated or experience a prolonged period of stable behavior, I don't think it's wise to introduce a weapon into the home. Even in a stable home with folks who can focus all their attention on learning how to use a gun responsibly, it's sometimes not the right solution.

First things first, seek intervention for the kid. He is the greatest danger to those you love at this moment.

 

[TT]

Thanks for the info Sharps, I wasn't aware of those issues.