Texas 30.06 question

[Grayrock]

If a place has a 30.06 sign posted, but it does not conform to the prescribed description, is it still valid? Definition says block letters at least 1 inch tall. If they are not capitalized on the sign, but the picture on the Texas Code website shows all caps is it valid? If the caps are 1 inch but the lower case letters are less than 1 inch, is it valid? Is this one of those " You be the test case" scenarios?

 

[Deavis]

The description of the sign is very specific, if it is not met then the sign is invalid.

(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written
language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by
Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with
block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner
clearly visible to the public.

It says nothing about caps.

 

[Grayrock]

Since it does not mention caps, then can I assume that means that lower case letters must all be at least 1 inch high? And if they are not, the sign is invalid?

 

[rhubarb]

The code says 1" letters.

I have another 30.06 question: Mustn't the notice also be posted at all public entrances? It's not mentioned in the code, but is there legal precedent for this?

My CHL instructor told us that it must be posted at all entrances.

The only correct 30.06 sign I've seen was from the back side in a hospital. I entered at an unposted public entrance in the rear and as I walked by the front door, I saw the back of the sign. Fortunately, I conform to the rule "Concealed means concealed."

 

[MechAg94]

I thought it should be at all entrances as well. Just be comfortable that you can argue that you didn't see any signs.

 

[Shipwreck]

At 2 or 3 places, I've seen the right signage, except a different # besides 30.06 is listed. Everything else is right. I forget the replacement number. If I see one again I'll remember.

Anyone else see this?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

As far as what the statute says, the statute says identical. Now whether the officer who might respond to the complaint agrees that not exactly 1" lowercase letters is not identical is another issue...

If you want to be the one to go before the judge and argue that because the lowercase letters were not at least one inch in height, you did not have notice of the owner's desire to prohibit CHL, I think it would be interesting to see if the court would go with that. Personally, I would just as soon avoid being the test case for exactly how identical it has to be. Not to mention, I 'd rather not spend money/frequent a place that doesn't want me there anyway.

 

[GEM]

Mentioning on the Internet that you did see a valid sign but chose to ignore it by going through another door, might be iffy in court.

 

[frostbiker]

FWIW, if the 30.06 is posted, one inch letters or not, I will abide by that. No need to be the test case over the height of some letters.

I have spoken to a couple of CHL instructors on this matter and gotten different answers. The instructor who taught my class brought up a scenario regarding posting at all entrances. He had a student who was cited because a car dealership had the sign posted on a stand twenty feet inside the showroom (legal height/language et.al.). Student said he continued to carry anyway because the sign wasn't posted at the entrance. He lost the case. Instructor said that since the sign was visible from the entrance it counted as proper posting.


EDIT** The guy wasn't cited. Just asked to leave the premises. He was printed by a sales associate. He complied.

 

[ChickenHawk]

I wouldn't want to become the test case, either. BUT, the law is the law.

If the lettering is not 1 Inch letters then it is not a valid 30.06 sign.

What if they only post it in english? You understand english, don't you (I assume yes, since you started the thread). But the law clearly states that a valid 30.06 be in two languages, english and spanish. If not, it is not a valid 30.06 sign.

IANAL, but it doesn't take one to read these simple rules.

Regards,
ChickenHawk

 

[Shipwreck]

The other thing to consider - if U do get to court and beat it - say bye bye to thousands of your dollars in lawyer fees...

 

[ArcherandShooter]

Intent is clear

As I understand it from my CHL instructor, the law is clear that the sign MUST conform to the law in order to have legal effect.

However, as the only way this will become an issue is if you are discovered to be carrying a weapon, the moment a representative of the business tells you verbally to leave, YOU MUST DO SO, since the law also allows that form of communication as valid notice.

Up to that point, an invalid sign means no legal trouble for you (apart from legal fees perhaps), if you leave when asked, but the moment you ignore the verbal command to leave you are in violation of the statute and can be charged with criminal trespass.

My own rule of thumb is that I will honor the intent of the business even if they got the sign wrong, and stay away. I will also, however, be certain to let the owner / manager know that they have permanently lost me as a customer because of their policy, and that I will be sure to invite all my friends to join me in the boycott.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Chickenhawk, the purpose of the law was that a CHL holder would have effective notice that the owner of a business wished to prevent CHLs who were armed from entering. Rather than confuse the issue with a lot of different signage, they specified the sign that constituted effective notice and said that any verbal notice was also effective notice.

Texas courts are very literal. They might decide that 7/8" letters don't cut it and you are free to go. They might also decide that 7/8" gives you effective notice, even if it doesn't meet the exact wording of the statute. I wouldn't want to be the guy to test that distinction. If the decision goes the wrong way, you have just been convicted of a Class A misdemeanor and won't be carrying anywhere for five years.

 

[GEM]

Frostbiker - could we have details on how this happened? How was the person discovered at the dealership?

I'm a touch suspicious of stories without some reference. Instructors say all kinds of things to scare classes.

I had one tell me x,y,z as happening to him and then I read it in a book which he obviously got it from.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

there is a car dealership in Austin that has "30.05" quoted in the verbiage instead of 30.06 on their sign. otherwise it appears legal. since it is not verbatim i'd say this is not a legal "30.06" sign.

from my CHL instructors class DPS said it must be posted at all public entrances, for the person who asked earlier.

 

[frostbiker]

Gem,

As I remember it (this has been over a year now), the guy in question was printed by a sales associate during a sale. Customer had to have walked by the sign at least once or twice while on the showroom floor and either not paid attention to it, ignored it as not being 'to the letter of the law' by being posted inside, or just plain didn't think the law applied to him. No reason was given why he ignored the sign, but the instructor stated he complied when asked to leave. That's the best my memory can provide.

I have seen the 51% signs posted every which way at bars and restuarants. I go out of my way to find them and respect them when I find them. I have seen a couple of 30.06 signs posted at places (other than the airport and hospitals) that were also placed in odd spots inside the merchant. Last one that comes to mind is where it was posted (1" letters and all) behind a magazine rack with some *ahem* adult titles at a convenience store. Haven't been back to that 'Stop n Rob' ever.

 

[GEM]

If he complied when asked to leave, why did he get cited and go to court? Also, the dude had his gun printing - that was dumb.

I'm confused. Most car dealers I know would glue your butt to the chair to make a sale rather than chase away a customer.

I once was at a Nissan dealer lot and they had a noncompliant sign so I asked the salesperson why they had the stupid sign. The manager got involved and said it didn't stop him from carrying. I think he was lying to calm me down. I said that if the sign was not enforced, go get a razor blade and peel if off. I told him that we wouldn't buy from him.Anyway, we got a Toyota.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I have seen the 51% signs posted every which way at bars and restuarants. I go out of my way to find them and respect them when I find them.

Good advice since Section 46.03 and 46.035 of the Texas Penal Code make carrying in those locations a Third Degree Felony (no guns again ever). That particularly sticks in my craw since you could still be convicted even if the business failed in its obligation to post the 51% sign the way the law is written.

Under the law, you are required to stay out of places that derive more than 51% of their income from on-premises sales if you are carrying. However, unless the business posts the 51% sign like it is supposed to, you have practically no way of knowing whether they did or not. Since the intent requirement for this crime is "recklessly", you could theoretically be convicted if the jury believes that you should have known that the place derived more than 51% of its income from on-premises sales, even though no sign was posted.

 

[ChickenHawk]

bartholomew roberts wrote:
Chickenhawk, the purpose of the law was that a CHL holder would have effective notice that the owner of a business wished to prevent CHLs who were armed from entering. Rather than confuse the issue with a lot of different signage, they specified the sign that constituted effective notice and said that any verbal notice was also effective notice.

Texas courts are very literal. They might decide that 7/8" letters don't cut it and you are free to go. They might also decide that 7/8" gives you effective notice, even if it doesn't meet the exact wording of the statute. I wouldn't want to be the guy to test that distinction. If the decision goes the wrong way, you have just been convicted of a Class A misdemeanor and won't be carrying anywhere for five years.

I agree with ever word, Bartholomew! I DO respect even invalid signs and stay out as well.

BUT, (for sake of argument and clarity) how then is that different from one of those signs which has a picture of a gun with a slash through it. Has the merchant not conveyed his wishes to you? Why then is this not effective notice? The sign is either valid or it is not ... no ?

Cheers,
ChickenHawk

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

BUT, (for sake of argument and clarity) how then is that different from one of those signs which has a picture of a gun with a slash through it. Has the merchant not conveyed his wishes to you?

He has said he doesn't care for guns; but he hasn't really said anything about CHL has he? I generally assume that since the legislature has taken the time to specify what sign must be used to give effective notice to CHLs, people who use something wildly different from that sign don't have me in mind. I generally avoid doing business with them all the same though.

On the other hand, if I see a sign that has the exact 30.06 language and is in English and Spanish in contrasting colors; but it says "30.05" or the type is only 7/8" tall, I am pretty sure that means me even if the sign isn't perfect.

I guess for me, I draw the line at what I would feel comfortable arguing. I would hate to stand in court and tell a judge with a straight face that because the letters were 1/8" too short, I didn't think that the owner was trying to prohibit CHL.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

unfortunately it depends on the responding police officer to the call, if they believe you violated 30.06 then they will probably arrest you. remember most of them aren't carrying a 1" measuring device. either way if they ask you to leave, regardless of whether or not a 30.06 sign is posted or not, remember that you have to leave.

 

[57Coastie]

I would recommend that you Texans out there listen well when Mr. Roberts speaks. In a very wise manner he mixes pragmatism with a judicious look at legal constraints.

Too many of the posters here appear to be intent on finding some way to beat the legal system, and that is not wise, particularly in Texas, one of our more liberal (with a small "L") states when it comes to RKBA. If I were in an uncharitable mood, given my background I would suspect these posters of being "sea lawyers." Our law in Texas being so favorable right now it scares me to hear all this talk about "test cases." If one insists on testing the outer limits of the "signage" issue in Texas, and clarifying all the gray areas, the chances are at least equal that the result will be unhappy.

Let the lawyers quibble about these abstruse questions over lunch, that's the way they make their living, and they love it. Meanwhile we should preserve our RKBA without raising an unnecessary stink. If you find yourself in the position of having to hire a competent lawyer -- I stress "competent" -- to quibble about these issues before a judge on your behalf, you may expect to pay a pretty penny for the privilege.

In closing, a piece of well-intended advice, fellow Texans, and I hope it is taken in that light. Several times on this THR forum I have seen suggestions that one beware of getting legal advice on the forum. Wise indeed, but there is another place where we must be similarly careful about getting legal advice. On this thread I have more than once read something to the effect that "my CHL instructor said...." We should be very careful about taking legal advice from a CHL instructor as being the gospel. I have attended three of these classes, one for my original license and two for renewals. In these classes my instructors, all different, all in different counties, gave differing opinions about an identical "signage" question. At least two of them, and possibly all three of them, were wrong.

All the best for the New Year, from a Bolivar beach.

Jim

 

[ChickenHawk]

He has said he doesn't care for guns; but he hasn't really said anything about CHL has he?

Hmmm, that's probably the best answer I've ever heard for that question.

Regards,
ChickenHawk

 

[TC-TX]

A FACTUAL, QUALIFIED Response

If a place has a 30.06 sign posted, but it does not conform to the prescribed description, is it still valid?

NO - As Described in the Texas Penal Code. 30.06 Signage must meet ALL Conditions in order to be valid.

Definition says block letters at least 1 inch tall. If they are not capitalized on the sign, but the picture on the Texas Code website shows all caps is it valid?

YES - IF they are ALL AT LEAST 1 inch high.

If the caps are 1 inch but the lower case letters are less than 1 inch, is it valid?

NO - As Described in the Texas Penal Code. 30.06 Signage must meet ALL Conditions in order to be valid.

Is this one of those " You be the test case" scenarios?

NO - As Described in the Texas Penal Code.

These are FACTUAL ANSWERS. If you choose to see invalid signage as valid - that is your choice. It does NOT make them any more valid.

The Texas Penal Code is Very Clear on these issues.

 

[TC-TX]

there is a car dealership in Austin that has "30.05" quoted in the verbiage instead of 30.06 on their sign.

30.05 Signage does NOT apply to CHL holders - Ever.