The 1911 - "for experts only"

[sohcgt2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sohcgt2
...I remove and clean the mainspring housing every time I shoot and remove soot from the mainspring housing every time I clean it....

Have fun.

It's not about fun its about safety, security, and resposible firearms ownership and usage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sohcgt2
How is your description different from mine?...

You implied that it was inherent in the nature of the gun. It is not. It is a function of your technique -- a technique which is applicable to many guns. In any event, sweet45 was correct. And I do know what I'm talking about.

I think you inferred nature, I simply operate the machine as it was designed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sohcgt2
...I learned that from the likes of oldtimers like you...

And I suggest that you keep learning. You have a ways to go.

I pray every day that I never stop learning, but should I reach that plateau I know where I keep the shovel and I've already picked out a place to dig.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I simply operate the machine as it was designed.

No, you operate it one way it can be operated. The technique of trigger reset may be effectively used with an number of types of guns. It works quite well, for example, with the 1911. But that is not the only way to operate such guns.

For example, Rob Leatham fully releases the trigger on the 1911s and XDs he shoots. In fact, he brings his finger fully forward to touch the inside forward surface of the trigger guard. And it would be difficult to find a faster and more accurate at speed shooter. Of course, Rob Leatham is Rob Leatham, and he is very talented, and trains and practices a good deal.

The again, Massad Ayoob teaches releasing the trigger until it reaches the forward extent of its travel. In other words, he does not teach releasing the trigger only to reset. He teaches things thus for a reason, and considering he is teaching the use of the gun for self defense, his reason can be thought to be a good one.

If you have to defend yourself with a gun, you will be under considerable stress. But releasing the trigger only so far after a shot is a fairly precise, fine motor skill -- something that deteriorates under stress. And if you don't let out the trigger enough and allow it to reset properly, you can pull on it all you want, and nothing will happen. That's a very bad thing if someone is attacking you. So, argues Mas, let the trigger come fully forward. Thus is has redoubtably reset and, while it is a little less precise, the gun will definitely go "bang" the next time you pull the trigger.

 

[David E]

I don't shoot competitively so I practice as if my life depended on it. If I try to pull that first round in with the others I can, but since it stays inside the center mass area of the targets I just don't worry about it. I accept 2 holes for 14 rounds down range.

If you're really practicing "as if your life depended on it," then you're doing it wrong.

First of all, there is no reason a pistolero of even mediocre skill has to "concede that the first round will be slightly off target due to the long first pull of the Safe Action trigger." Take up the take up and make the shot. The take up is light, so it shouldn't thow off your shot in the least. The fact that it DOES reveals much.

Second of all, if you're "practicing as if your life depened on it" and you're throwing the first shot wide, but then put the remaining 13 rounds into the same hole means you're shooting those 13 shots waaaaay too slow. Now, maybe you're a gifted shooter and can put those 13 shots into the same hole at a quarter second per shot pace........but your thrown first shot contradicts that presumption.

Jeff Cooper maintained that if the second shot is within 8 inches of the first, you're shooting too slow.

How is your description different from mine? first pull long, subsequent pulls short.

Because the weight of the trigger pull is the same for each shot. This is unlike a Beretta 92 that has a long, measurably harder trigger pull, followed by short, measurably lighter ones. The Glock has the same trigger pull weight each time, regardless of the take up.

 

[sohcgt2]

For example, Rob Leatham fully releases the trigger on the 1911s and XDs he shoots.

Rob fires custom guns remade by great gunsmiths. I fire defensive pistols straight from the manufacturer. There is considerable difference in trigger pull, both weight and cleanliness of the break.

Massad Ayoob teaches releasing the trigger until it reaches the forward extent of its travel.

He is teaching basic defensive skills in the K.I.S.S. method so under pressure the civilians he teaches won't freeze up since in all likelyhood they will not practice these skills daily after they complete his course.

If you have to defend yourself with a gun, you will be under considerable stress.

Something on which we aggree. The decision to return fire is the most difficult and high stress decision most of us will ever make.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Rob fires custom guns remade by great gunsmiths. I fire defensive pistols straight from the manufacturer. There is considerable difference in trigger pull, both weight and cleanliness of the break.

So what? We were talking about alternate ways of operating a gun.

He [Massad Ayoob] is teaching basic defensive skills in the K.I.S.S. method so under pressure the civilians he teaches won't freeze up since in all likelyhood they will not practice these skills daily after they complete his course.

Absolutely wrong --

[1] What's wrong with K. I. S. S.? Keeping things simple is central to effective training and self defense. Skill at arms is primarily executing the fundamentals proficiently, consistently, quickly, repeatedly and on demand. Louis Awerbuck gave his second book, More Tactical Reality, the subtitle, "Why There are No Such Thing as an 'Advanced' Gunfight."

[2] In the LFI-I class I took from Mas last Fall, four students were experienced LEOs, two of whom were "use of force" trainers for their agencies. Of the private citizens in the class, almost all were "high mileage" shooters with extensive previous training. They were "enthusiasts" who shot a great deal, practiced regularly, and who competed and/or took professional training on a regular basis.

[3] If you don't know what you're talking about it would be best to keep quiet. "It is better to be silent and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

...The decision to return fire is the most difficult and high stress decision most of us will ever make.

It's not so much a matter of the decision being high stress. It's a matter of the event itself creating enormous stress and the physiological, cognitive, perceptual and physical changes that accompany high stress.

 

[sohcgt2]

I appreciate that you are far more knowledgable than I in the operation of firearms and that you have trained with the best, while my training all came from poor old uncle sam. Certainly you are also well read on the subject whereas I limit my reading primarily to Dr. Seuss. This has strayed way off topic and I fear has become a waist of time to those who may actually wish to see the opinions of others as to why a 1911 might be considered a pistol that by design requires slightly more expertise to operate than other designs. I thank you again for the education and extend an invitation, should you ever visit Atlanta please look me up and we can go shooting together.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I ...extend an invitation, should you ever visit Atlanta please look me up and we can go shooting together.

That is very gracious, and i'd be delighted to go shooting with you. And if that happy event comes to pass, I hope you'd let me treat you to dinner afterward at wherever you deemed appropriate for a "mending fences" party. I apologize for my harsh words.

This has strayed way off topic...

And I apologize for my contribution to that.









And I don't believe that your reading is limited to Dr. Seuss.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Originally Posted by sohcgt2
...The decision to return fire is the most difficult and high stress decision most of us will ever make.

The decision to return fire is easy -- assuming you're still able after the other guy fires. It's the decision to forestall him by shooting first that's difficult.

 

[ChCx2744]

sohcgt2:

The key in this statement is "1911's are rugged weapons that will function fine if maintained properly." That is why they are "for experts only". A Glock, a SW M&P, a Springfield XD all are free of FTF without the maintainance. The new generation of autos is idiot proof by comparison to the 1911. Plus when they do require maintainance they fall apart with the touch of a button. True in the case of Glocks it may result in the operator shooting himself. Again that is why they are "for experts only".

I heed you to read over the aforementioned phrases I highlighted in bold in your "extremely knowledgable, sage-given statements." I would like to see you cite and articulate your contribution to this thread (more so, to my post); until then, your deliberation on the subject will merely stay as an opinion until your findings proove otherwise. I will not dignify a debated answer with my analysis until you provide the rest of the posters with such. I've learned from kicking the dead horse and it only makes things go further down south.

 

[sohcgt2]

"extremely knowledgable, sage-given statements."

I thank you for your sarcasm. You are correct in weighing my statements as opinion, it is, as is most everything in most of the posts on this forum. If you take portions out of context or read the paragraph as literal than certainly it won't hold water. Glocks don't come apart at the touch of a button. You must clear, hold down on the slide release, squeeze the trigger and then let the slide go foreward. Also clearly no machine is maintenance free and to suggest such a statement should be taken literally is just silly. I do however stand by the idea of the statement that 1911's are considered by some to be more complex machines than the newer striker fired design pistols.

I will not dignify a debated answer with my analysis until you provide the rest of the posters with such. I've learned from kicking the dead horse and it only makes things go further down south.

I don't think this can go further south and I will not revisit debate since I have with the help of others pulled this post far off its original topic. Feel free to anal-ize away, and yes I know I misspelled analyze.

 

[tipoc]

I do however stand by the idea of the statement that 1911's are considered by some to be more complex machines than the newer striker fired design pistols.

This is a true statement. There are a good many newer shooters these days who believe that the 1911 is not only an antiquated design but one that is overly complex. I think they have been taught this or led to believe this by some writers and some instructors. Here is an example below which I lifted from here...ttp://www.sightm1911.com/lib/other/why_the_m1911.htm


.

Tom Givens, Author and Trainer

That said, the 1911 is NOT a gun for the casual user, or what we call NDP's (non-dedicated personnel). The gun was designed when technology was expensive, but skilled labor was not. The exact opposite is true today. A carry 1911 should be gone over by an experienced specialist (Heinie, Burns, Yam, Yost, Garthwaite, etc) and then properly maintained by the end user. The average cop or typical CCW holder would be better served with a Glock or SIG in most cases. If you're willing to spend the money to get a properly set up 1911 and TRAIN with it, then you're not "average".

Some observations, especially if taken out of context, can lead folks to move away from the 1911. A newer shooter can decide, based on what they have been told, that 1911s are too finicky or require special dedication. After all, if a newer shooter has 600-700 bucks to spend and they want a reliable, useful, accurate and safe sidearm will they look at the Sig P228, for example, or a gun that needs an "experienced specialist" to go over it before it can be relied on? Will they go to the S&W M&P or a gun that requires that they not be "average" just to shoot it well? If the 1911 is the "gun of professionals" and you know you ain't no "professional" where ya gonna go?

I met two young shooters at the range a while back who told me my 1911 was an "old design", "complex", "hard to take down", took "skill" to shoot well, etc. I offered to let them shoot my Colt, one refused and the other did shoot it explaining he had never shot one before. But they both "knew" all about the 1911.

The 1911 is a simply design. Mechanicaly it is simpler than any da/sa gun and simpler than many striker fired guns. Easy to field strip and easy to clean. It's no harder to learn to shoot well than any other gun and easier then some IMHO.

Some folks, trained on guns with no external safety or with decocker guns, worry they will have to remember to disengage the safety under stress. Whenever I fire a gun without a thumb safety I automatically try to disengage the missing safety and then look to see where it went when it broke off.

tipoc

 

[JSmith]

dozens of authors and gun writers seem to think that the 1911 is a fine handgun "for experts only".

Don't believe everything you read on the 'net.