weisse52
Member
Ha, Ha, Ho, Ho, we laugh....
The 1911 - "for experts only"
- Thread starter bear71
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Ha, Ha, Ho, Ho, we laugh....
weisse52
Member
First "google" search, I am sure I could find better ones if I took more than 5 minutes to do so.
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/other/why_the_m1911.htm
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/other/why_the_m1911.htm
Those crazy new 1911 guns that hold more than one bullet and have all these new fangled levers and springs! What will those whippersnappers think of next? Those things are overly complicated and nearly impossible for most people to operate....heck....they're almost as complicated as that internet thing!
easyg
Member
Not at all.
The 1911 is nice and slim, and even folks with small hands typically have no problem shooting it.
Here are a few guns that will give one a hard time should they have average or smaller hands:
The Beretta
The Glock 21
The HK USP
Archie
Member
Untll the middle 1950s...
The Government Model Colt - to include the US M1911 and 1911A1 - were pretty much the standard semi-automatic pistols in the United States at large. There were some Lugers and P38s and Nambus and a large number of Browning High Powers around, but the Government Model as the commonest.
In fact, handling the Browning, Luger and Nambu is very much like the Government Model. Load magazine, insert, charge set safety. The P38s were more of a novelty.
There were some other commercial auto pistols, but most were designed by John Browning (all the Colt semi-automatic pistols) and the occasional Mauser. Some Berettas. Still, they were most all single action pistols with manual safeties.
The S&W M39 was the first commercially accepted double action pistol.
Since that time, gun owners have been repeatedly told anything other than a DA/SA auto pistol is inherently and absolutely dangerous. They will 'go off' without warning if one looks at them wrong. They are possessed! Some believe that.
I don't, but I'm an old guy.
Should you own a Government Model? Can you handle it safely?
Only if you can read and pay attention. If one cannot safely handle a Government Model, take the bus or a taxi.
The Government Model Colt - to include the US M1911 and 1911A1 - were pretty much the standard semi-automatic pistols in the United States at large. There were some Lugers and P38s and Nambus and a large number of Browning High Powers around, but the Government Model as the commonest.
In fact, handling the Browning, Luger and Nambu is very much like the Government Model. Load magazine, insert, charge set safety. The P38s were more of a novelty.
There were some other commercial auto pistols, but most were designed by John Browning (all the Colt semi-automatic pistols) and the occasional Mauser. Some Berettas. Still, they were most all single action pistols with manual safeties.
The S&W M39 was the first commercially accepted double action pistol.
Since that time, gun owners have been repeatedly told anything other than a DA/SA auto pistol is inherently and absolutely dangerous. They will 'go off' without warning if one looks at them wrong. They are possessed! Some believe that.
I don't, but I'm an old guy.
Should you own a Government Model? Can you handle it safely?
Only if you can read and pay attention. If one cannot safely handle a Government Model, take the bus or a taxi.
JTQ
Member
I completely agree with "easyg". I cannot think of a service size handgun that has a better grip for people with small hands.
Magnumite
Member
Some aren't getting what the expert use status was in reference to.
The expert status referred to for 1911 use is in relation to its use as a carry weapon. That was alluded to several times along with the reasons for it. I read many of those same articles and that is what the reference was. I won't go into the writers, because some ellude me and the others I won't mention.
There is another notion that the modern rendition of the 1911 is less reliable than the origonal format. That's not true as long as the modern rendition is held to the same attention to detail and mechanical relationships.
The expert status referred to for 1911 use is in relation to its use as a carry weapon. That was alluded to several times along with the reasons for it. I read many of those same articles and that is what the reference was. I won't go into the writers, because some ellude me and the others I won't mention.
There is another notion that the modern rendition of the 1911 is less reliable than the origonal format. That's not true as long as the modern rendition is held to the same attention to detail and mechanical relationships.
1911 guy
Member
Here we go again. The same folks that will take the time to sort through five remote controls to change the television channel are now proclaiming that the 1911 is too difficult for a novice to operate.
And the same folks are claiming that the 1911 isn't reliable. Get one that hasn't been messed with, has a proper barrel on it (five inches) and watch it run until you are out of ammo.
Most of the newer design handguns are decent to great quality, and perhaps the DAO trigger has some merit. Perhaps the vestigial controls on them have merit, too. If you like your Kahr/Glock/Sig/Bersa/Whatever-the-heck, great. Buy ammo and practice. But claiming the 1911 is inferior or requires some kind of advanced training or guru level of training is simply ignorant of the facts.
The U.S. military (and a few others) took folks who'd never even held a firearm before and made them safe operators of these handguns. Expertise comes with traiing and practice, both of which are more lacking in the military than some would belive it to be.
In short, if you still think the 1911 is for somebody with god-like command of all things gunnie, maybe you should spend less time on the 'net and more time shooting different platforms other than what's in your safe and your comfort zone. You may find your comfort zone expanded considerably. And maybe your safe contents, too.
And the same folks are claiming that the 1911 isn't reliable. Get one that hasn't been messed with, has a proper barrel on it (five inches) and watch it run until you are out of ammo.
Most of the newer design handguns are decent to great quality, and perhaps the DAO trigger has some merit. Perhaps the vestigial controls on them have merit, too. If you like your Kahr/Glock/Sig/Bersa/Whatever-the-heck, great. Buy ammo and practice. But claiming the 1911 is inferior or requires some kind of advanced training or guru level of training is simply ignorant of the facts.
The U.S. military (and a few others) took folks who'd never even held a firearm before and made them safe operators of these handguns. Expertise comes with traiing and practice, both of which are more lacking in the military than some would belive it to be.
In short, if you still think the 1911 is for somebody with god-like command of all things gunnie, maybe you should spend less time on the 'net and more time shooting different platforms other than what's in your safe and your comfort zone. You may find your comfort zone expanded considerably. And maybe your safe contents, too.
OurSafeHome.net
Member
Perhaps it is better to say that the M-1911 is the weapon preferred by experts.
Come to think of it, my "Pistol Expert" badge has not one, but two M-1911's depicted on it...
Come to think of it, my "Pistol Expert" badge has not one, but two M-1911's depicted on it...
I agree.
While the title "expert" is indeed debatable, the 1911 can indeed be more challenging than say, a glock, for novice shooters simply because of the extra features common to the type.
A common theme found in self defense circles is a failure to disengage the safety resulting in a failure to fire. While the 1911 is not alone in this regard, that is NOT an issue with a firearm that has "glock-like" features or revolvers. The lack of a manual safety makes it much easier, and novice friendly, to operate a firearm simply because you don't NEED to remember to disengage a safety.
The single action trigger aspect is also another concern for novice shooters not accustomed to trigger control / safety that can result in unintended discharges. You generally have a little more weight to pull with a "glock" or a DA type of pistol.
Another common fault associated with the 1911 model stems from a failure to properly engage the grip safety, which is a result of a poorly tuned grip safety, or a FUNDAMENTAL error made by a shooter with a POOR grip on the firearm. Again, this is not an issue with a "glock" type of pistol or revolver, which means that fundamental grip errors will not result in a failure to fire.
I have witnessed this first hand, and most recently at a club match. We have a group of LEO's... (NOT A BASH ON LEO'S!!! I SUPPORT AND RESPECT MY LEO'S FORE THEY DO A VITAL JOB I COULD NEVER DO!!!!)...anyway, this group shoots with us, and I notice that one of their senior members was shooting a 1911 instead of the duty weapon they usually shoot. During the first 2 stages of the match, he drew, and had a failure to fire due to making a fundamental error with his grip, and failed to depress the grip safety.
Being a 1911 shooter, I am always on the look out for my brothers to either learn, or assist when I can. (That's what we do!!! TEAM single stack!!) I asked him about his weapon, which was fine, helped him identify his problem, and he had no issues afterward. Naturally, I chided him for shooting the "tupperware" guns, which allowed him to develop a bad habit of obtaining a poor grip on the gun.
I have also seen shooters inadvertantly safe the gun while shooting due to poor grip / thumb placement. These shooters are usually extremely proficient with other handguns that lack the thumb safety common to the 1911.
So, while the term "expert" can indeed be debated, there is no doubt in my mind that the 1911 can pose more problems with a novice shooter than say a glock or revolver. These "problems" can indeed be addressed with proper training.
It's not rocket science...
While the title "expert" is indeed debatable, the 1911 can indeed be more challenging than say, a glock, for novice shooters simply because of the extra features common to the type.
A common theme found in self defense circles is a failure to disengage the safety resulting in a failure to fire. While the 1911 is not alone in this regard, that is NOT an issue with a firearm that has "glock-like" features or revolvers. The lack of a manual safety makes it much easier, and novice friendly, to operate a firearm simply because you don't NEED to remember to disengage a safety.
The single action trigger aspect is also another concern for novice shooters not accustomed to trigger control / safety that can result in unintended discharges. You generally have a little more weight to pull with a "glock" or a DA type of pistol.
Another common fault associated with the 1911 model stems from a failure to properly engage the grip safety, which is a result of a poorly tuned grip safety, or a FUNDAMENTAL error made by a shooter with a POOR grip on the firearm. Again, this is not an issue with a "glock" type of pistol or revolver, which means that fundamental grip errors will not result in a failure to fire.
I have witnessed this first hand, and most recently at a club match. We have a group of LEO's... (NOT A BASH ON LEO'S!!! I SUPPORT AND RESPECT MY LEO'S FORE THEY DO A VITAL JOB I COULD NEVER DO!!!!)...anyway, this group shoots with us, and I notice that one of their senior members was shooting a 1911 instead of the duty weapon they usually shoot. During the first 2 stages of the match, he drew, and had a failure to fire due to making a fundamental error with his grip, and failed to depress the grip safety.
Being a 1911 shooter, I am always on the look out for my brothers to either learn, or assist when I can. (That's what we do!!! TEAM single stack!!) I asked him about his weapon, which was fine, helped him identify his problem, and he had no issues afterward. Naturally, I chided him for shooting the "tupperware" guns, which allowed him to develop a bad habit of obtaining a poor grip on the gun.
I have also seen shooters inadvertantly safe the gun while shooting due to poor grip / thumb placement. These shooters are usually extremely proficient with other handguns that lack the thumb safety common to the 1911.
So, while the term "expert" can indeed be debated, there is no doubt in my mind that the 1911 can pose more problems with a novice shooter than say a glock or revolver. These "problems" can indeed be addressed with proper training.
It's not rocket science...
Zerodefect
member
LOLz!
My first real hand gun was a 1911. (after begining with a Ruger p95) Thanks to its frame safety and grip safety it's one of the safest guns around. It's weight makes it easy to shoot. It allmost allways has good sights and a decent sight radius making it easy to aim.
The trick seems to be keeping one reliable and rust free.
So if a beginner really wants one, the only real advice I have is to at least get a good one. Danwesson, LesBaer, Wilson, Fusion. Don't expect any good 1911 to be anywhere near a Glocks pricepoint. Alot of work goes into these to get them right.
Dan Wesson Valor:
Fusion:
And still, as a 1911, even with all the reliability mods done, you will still have the top round floating in the mag problem. Just part of a 1911's desighn.
My first real hand gun was a 1911. (after begining with a Ruger p95) Thanks to its frame safety and grip safety it's one of the safest guns around. It's weight makes it easy to shoot. It allmost allways has good sights and a decent sight radius making it easy to aim.
The trick seems to be keeping one reliable and rust free.
So if a beginner really wants one, the only real advice I have is to at least get a good one. Danwesson, LesBaer, Wilson, Fusion. Don't expect any good 1911 to be anywhere near a Glocks pricepoint. Alot of work goes into these to get them right.
Dan Wesson Valor:
Fusion:
And still, as a 1911, even with all the reliability mods done, you will still have the top round floating in the mag problem. Just part of a 1911's desighn.
Deanimator
Member
M1911s are not for people who don't care enough to learn how their firearm works or to practice with it.
If you're responsible enough to know how your firearm works and to shoot it from time to time, then you're "expert" enough to use and carry an M1911.
If you're responsible enough to know how your firearm works and to shoot it from time to time, then you're "expert" enough to use and carry an M1911.
Deanimator
Member
The Browning Highpower is close, but only with aftermarket grips.
Deanimator
Member
Some of the ones I saw weren't. I once saw one have the slide close while it was sitting untouched on a sandbag.
Of course I don't think I EVER saw one newer than 1945 vintage. Most of them had never been properly taken care of. They were worn out after a world war's (and in some cases, two) worth of use, plus Korea, Vietnam, etc. I wonder how an automobile given that level of care (or lack thereof) would do after that amount of time.
I've got four M1911s. All of them are superbly reliable, including what would be considered the "cheap" one, my Norinco. Even it took only a modest amount of parts replacement and gunsmithing to make it 100%. I carry it frequently. I wouldn't trust my life to it if I didn't think it was reliable. But then it hasn't had 60 years of random boobs neglecting and "fixing" it either.
I guess that you can judge all P-51s by one that's sat rusting in a jungle in the Philippines since 1945 too...
bear,
I have a good friend, who is the range officer, that qualifies all local LEO's for their handgun/sidearm proficiency requirements. To look at this guy, who wears glasses thicker than the average person, you would never believe his proficiency. This guy, literally can pick up a handgun that he has never shot before, and in a couple of rounds, outshoot the owner in accuracy.....in some cases by a very large margin. He is a natural born pistolero. We used to tease him about having crosshairs in his eyeballs. He took a buddies worn out 1911 that his dad brought back from WW2, that when you shake it from side to side, sounds like a bag of coins rolling around in a clothes dryer, and proceeded to cut a .50 cent sized hole, in a target 25yards away, and that is with those all but worthless tiny sights on those guns. You should see him with his PPC revolver and some good wadcutters.
I would definately consider him a 1911 expert. He works on all kinds of guns but makes the 1911's run like a well oiled machine.
bigmike45
I have a good friend, who is the range officer, that qualifies all local LEO's for their handgun/sidearm proficiency requirements. To look at this guy, who wears glasses thicker than the average person, you would never believe his proficiency. This guy, literally can pick up a handgun that he has never shot before, and in a couple of rounds, outshoot the owner in accuracy.....in some cases by a very large margin. He is a natural born pistolero. We used to tease him about having crosshairs in his eyeballs. He took a buddies worn out 1911 that his dad brought back from WW2, that when you shake it from side to side, sounds like a bag of coins rolling around in a clothes dryer, and proceeded to cut a .50 cent sized hole, in a target 25yards away, and that is with those all but worthless tiny sights on those guns. You should see him with his PPC revolver and some good wadcutters.
I would definately consider him a 1911 expert. He works on all kinds of guns but makes the 1911's run like a well oiled machine.
bigmike45
Hey Zerodefect! Your mistakin. You see. You think you cycled the Glock with perfection because you saw holes all over the target. But the 1911 left just one hole in the target, so you assumed something was wrong. Don't spray and pray Glock daddy. Get a real gun and hit your target.
sohcgt2
Member
1911's are for experts because they require maintainance. They will not continue to cycle without cleaning and lubrication like the striker fired pistols will. In responce to sweet45 both of my Glocks will shoot tighter groups than any 1911 I've ever fired as long as I concede that the first round will be slightly off target due to the long first pull of the Safe Action trigger.
DAVIDSDIVAD
member
Man, those are some sweet guns, zerodefect!
Honestly, I wish I could have my slide without all of the Kimber billboards.
Honestly, I wish I could have my slide without all of the Kimber billboards.
.38 Special
Member
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And you develop muscle memory through practice. Hence "The 1911 may not be the best gun for the inexperienced user to carry".
So you can prove that there were no complaints, and more to the point, that no one ever fumbled the safety or unintentionally discharged the light trigger?
Hmm. I don't remember being rude to you in my post. In fact, I don't remember addressing you at all. So how about you imagine the suggestion I'd make to you on an unmoderated forum, cupcake, and then have at it. Don't forget to stretch first!
.38 Special
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Huh. Looks like the fanboys got their panties in a bunch. And I wasn't even trying.
.38 Special
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Getting beyond the internet tough-talk, JoeSlomo's post sums it up perfectly: there are simpler guns to learn and use than the 1911. That doesn't mean the 1911 is a bad gun, or can't be learned, or is only for action heroes. It simply means that if you're going to buy a gun for self defense, shoot one box of ammo through it, and then put it into your nightstand or hang it under the counter in your store -- and like it or not a lot of people do exactly that -- then the 1911 is not a good choice.
If you want to spend some time learning the gun -- and then keeping those abilities, if not sharp, then at least not rusty -- then the 1911 is a fine choice.
If you want to spend some time learning the gun -- and then keeping those abilities, if not sharp, then at least not rusty -- then the 1911 is a fine choice.
tipoc
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I think this is about right. The 1911 is not for everyone. It does not require "experts" but it does require some dedication.
Many either don't know, or they've forgotten, that the 1911 was often cussed by GIs throughout it's time of service. Many servicemen had little to no experience with handguns prior to being drafted. Those that did had most of that experience with wheelguns. The 1911 was considered too heavy. The .45acp too powerful. The gun too hard to learn to shoot well. During WWII many dumped the 1911 for the Luger or the Walther P38.
As soon as reliable DA/SA pistols made an appearance there was a mass switch to those by law enforcement and the military. Jeff Cooper pointed out that the reason for this was the belief that safety could be built into a gun and make up for a lack of training. He was correct about that.
tipoc
I've known scores of WW2 Vets and many of them were harsh critics of the 1911A1. Their complaints ranged from "It kicks like a mule" and "It's too heavy" through "You can't hit a barn door with it". As I grew older, I came to realize that the complaints were from men who were not given proper training or adequate practice with the pistol. It's also impossible to say who was simply repeating rumors and who actually had experience with the gun. Not all WW2 GI's were trained on or issued the 1911A1.
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