The 1911 - "for experts only"

[ChCx2744]

LOL I am FAR from a firearms "expert" but handling and knowing extensive operation of a 1911 style pistol is not difficult to grasp; It is actually very simple to use a 1911, hence it is a favorite amongst the shooting and firearm ownership community.

And Zerodefect...1911's aren't likely to have that many FTFs/FTEs when shooting, if it is one that has been properly taken care of, properly manufactured and/or made from a reputable company...1911's are rugged weapons that will function fine if maintained properly.

 

[sohcgt2]

And Zerodefect...1911's aren't likely to have that many FTFs/FTEs when shooting, if it is one that has been properly taken care of, properly manufactured and/or made from a reputable company...1911's are rugged weapons that will function fine if maintained properly.

The key in this statement is "1911's are rugged weapons that will function fine if maintained properly." That is why they are "for experts only". A Glock, a SW M&P, a Springfield XD all are free of FTF without the maintainance. The new generation of autos is idiot proof by comparison to the 1911. Plus when they do require maintainance they fall apart with the touch of a button. True in the case of Glocks it may result in the operator shooting himself. Again that is why they are "for experts only".

 

[tipoc]

A Glock, a SW M&P, a Springfield XD all are free of FTF without the maintainance.

I have to disagree. All firearms require maintenance. Proper cleaning, lubrication, the replacement of recoil springs when needed, periodic cleaning of the mags, etc. are all part of keeping a gun in working order. It's no where near true that the guns mentioned will run well without maintenance. But we get a bit closer to the heart of the matter.

The idea that you can build a gun that requires no to little maintenance, no training to use, no skill to use well, etc. means you want the work to be built into the gun and not come from the shooter. Safety and skill come from the shooter and can't be built into the gun. Poor gun handling is poor gun handling and poor maintenance is poor maintenance.

To get good with a gun, any gun requires some work. It ought to. Fellas not willing to do the work often complain more about 1911s than some other designs.

A DA/SA gun is no safer than a 1911 or BHP but many think they are.

tipoc

 

[mljdeckard]

Correct. You should frequently clean your carry gun no matter what it is.

 

[tipoc]

I've known scores of WW2 Vets and many of them were harsh critics of the 1911A1. Their complaints ranged from "It kicks like a mule" and "It's too heavy" through "You can't hit a barn door with it". As I grew older, I came to realize that the complaints were from men who were not given proper training or adequate practice with the pistol. It's also impossible to say who was simply repeating rumors and who actually had experience with the gun. Not all WW2 GI's were trained on or issued the 1911A1.

Yep I agree it was a lack of proper training. Even with the right training not everyone would have liked the 1911. Many did like it, Jeff Cooper for one. We're fortunate to have choices.


tipoc

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Yep I agree it was a lack of proper training. Even with the right training not everyone would have liked the 1911. Many did like it, Jeff Cooper for one. We're fortunate to have choices.

People who say "You can't hit anything with the .45" are people who don't have any experience with other handguns -- they see people in the movies shooting from the hip, or thrusting a gun foreward as if throwing the bullets and think that's how it's done. They don't realise that no one can hit anything with any gun without training and practice.

 

[doubs43]

The key in this statement is "1911's are rugged weapons that will function fine if maintained properly." That is why they are "for experts only". A Glock, a SW M&P, a Springfield XD all are free of FTF without the maintainance. The new generation of autos is idiot proof by comparison to the 1911.

If field stripping, cleaning and lubricating a 1911 is beyond anyone's mechanical abilities then they don't have any business owning one. That is ALL the normal maintenance required to keep the 1911 running like a watch.... and it's not needed as frequently as some seem to think. It's not rocket science and it's not difficult if the person can walk and chew gum at the same time.

The 1911 is little more complicated than a brick in spite of those who think maintenance involves Voodoo and weird dances with chickens that could get one arrested. The brick is likely not as tough either.

It's one thing to work well in police and security service that rarely involves the harsh conditions of a battlefield and quite another to survive severe conditions and keep on truckin'. When one of the plastic miracle pistols has 75 years - or more - of hard military service under it's belt and has been as good as the 1911 is and will continue to be, then maybe I'll change my mind..... but don't bet on it.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Get a little sand in your typical Wonder Nine double-column, single-feed magazine and tell me such pistols need no maintenance!!

 

[sohcgt2]

sweet45 wrote

You must have some pretty lame 1911's. Also, A Glock trigger has the same trigger pull first to last shot.

You are mistaken on both counts. I have a middle of the road Springfield 1911 that is kept in very good condition and fired at least 100 rounds per month. It is also completely cleaned and lubed after firing. As for the Glock trigger pull the initial pull is nearly 1/2 inch and subsequent pulls are less than 1/2 that distance. Also let me welcome you to the high road the same way I was welcomed. Not to be argumentative, but if you don't know what you're talking about it would be best to keep quiet. "It is better to be silent and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Um, my opinion is yes and no (mostly no). But yes, I think that one ought not carry a 1911 unless one trains *more than the average bear*, mainly to make disengaging a manual under stress 2nd nature, but also to get used to the lighter trigger, to avoid NDs under stress of a real shooting.

 

[sohcgt2]

mljdeckard wrote

You should frequently clean your carry gun no matter what it is.

I agree fully and usually will set asside 1 hour per gun fired for cleaning after shooting. I belive in maintaining my equipment. It is the reason I am able to drive my 300,000 mile car and my 500,000 mile truck at the turn of a key. I am not so silly as to think the expertise required to operate them is the same. If you have maintained a revolver after a day at the range and maintained a 1911 after a day at the range you know there is no comparison. My 1911 dissassembles to 34 pieces, my Glocks dissassemble to 4-8 pieces each, and my revolvers require I roll the cylinder out. 1911's require more expertise to operate effectively, but as many here have already stated, The U.S. Military was able to train many soldiers to use them effectively. In my neighborhood I can throw a rock and will likely hit someone who knows a 1911 "expert" and if not I can drive one of my high mileage automobiles to the VFW and talk to a room full of "experts".

 

[doubs43]

I was in the home of an Army Vet this afternoon who served during the early 1960's. He told me an interesting story about his qualification with the 1911A1.

He was lounging around one day when an NCO announced that anyone who wanted to qualify on the .45 should jump on the truck outside. He did and went to the range where he failed to qualify. Feeling pretty glum as he waited for the truck back, the NCOIC of the range apparently noticed and asked how he did. When he said he'd failed, the Sgt asked if he'd like to stick around and try again. He did and he said that in less than 45 minutes of instruction from the NCO, he easily qualified. He's been a 1911A1 man ever since.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...As for the Glock trigger pull the initial pull is nearly 1/2 inch and subsequent pulls are less than 1/2 that distance....

I would not characterize a Glock trigger quite that way. There is an initial, fairly light take-up of about a half inch (unless you've fitted a NY trigger, in which case, there is still take-up but not lighter than the rest of its travel). After that, there's heavier pull for a fairly short distance until the shot breaks. To me it feels something like a single action trigger with a fair amount of creep.

After the first shot, you have two choices. You can either let the trigger fully out, in which case firing the next round will be just like the first round with about a half an inch of light take-up. Or you can let the trigger out only until it resets. That basically eliminates the take-up for the next shot.

...my Glocks will shoot tighter groups than any 1911 I've ever fired as long as I concede that the first round will be slightly off target due to the long first pull of the Safe Action trigger....

If you learn to prep the trigger for the first round, you won't have this problem.

 

[sohcgt2]

If you learn to prep the trigger for the first round, you won't have this problem.

I don't shoot competitively so I practice as if my life depended on it. If I try to pull that first round in with the others I can, but since it stays inside the center mass area of the targets I just don't worry about it. I accept 2 holes for 14 rounds down range.

 

[tipoc]

If you have maintained a revolver after a day at the range and maintained a 1911 after a day at the range you know there is no comparison. My 1911 dissassembles to 34 pieces, my Glocks dissassemble to 4-8 pieces each, and my revolvers require I roll the cylinder out.

There is no reason to detail strip a 1911 for routine cleaning. If you are doing this you don't need to. All it requires is a field strip. Seeing as how there are more than 32 parts to a 1911 when you detail strip it I'm not sure where you get the 32 from, unless you just threw out a number to make the gun seem more complicated than it is. Heck takes me less time to field strip, clean and lube a 1911 than it does a wheelgun.

tipoc

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Um, my opinion is yes and no (mostly no). But yes, I think that one ought not carry a 1911 unless one trains *more than the average bear*, mainly to make disengaging a manual under stress 2nd nature, but also to get used to the lighter trigger, to avoid NDs under stress of a real shooting.

I think you're seeing non-existant problems. Any gun -- any gun at all -- requires its own manual of arms. Some training on the specific piece (yes, even the Glock) is necessary.

The M1911 is simple -- the proper presentation is with thumbs over the safety lock, trigger finger indexed. To fire, simply close your hand. There is no danger of an ND with your finger indexed, and when you close you hand, the safety comes off automatically.

Now, if the subject is NDs, let's talk about holstering a Glock while wearming loose-fitting clothes.

 

[chriske]

Contrary to what many would like to be true (and some seem to actually believe), merely owning a 1911 doesn't make one an expert handgunner.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I don't shoot competitively so I practice as if my life depended on it....

Prep'ing the trigger for the first shot, with practice, takes no more time than just resetting the trigger for subsequent shots.

But in any case the only reason that the trigger pull on your Glock is different for the first shot compared with subsequent shots is because of the trigger reset technique you employ (which works with the 1911 as well, BTW). Of course that means that sweet45's statement in post #94 that, "...A Glock trigger has the same trigger pull first to last shot..." is essentially correct. And that also means that your statement to him in post #109 chiding him that, "...if you don't know what you're talking about it would be best to keep quiet..." was way out of line, since he does know what he's talking about.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Prep'ing the trigger for the first shot, with practice, takes no more time than just resetting the trigger for subsequent shots.

Help me out here. When you say "prep'ing the trigger" do you mean putting your finger on the trigger before you have made the final decision to shoot?

 

[Frank Ettin]

Help me out here. When you say "prep'ing the trigger" do you mean putting your finger on the trigger before you have made the final decision to shoot?

Certainly not. But many triggers, including the 1911, are, in effect, two stage. There is first a short, light take-up working only against the trigger spring (or trigger return spring). At the end of that short, light take-up, the fire control mechanism begins to bear on the sear and slightly more pressure is needed until the shot breaks.

In the very first stage of learning to shoot, I've found it helpful to be conscious of that two stage process. Of course as muscle memory is built and one reaches the point of unconscious competence, the process becomes more and more compressed until it seems to be one continuous, smooth and quick action.

But the finger doesn't touch the trigger nor the press begin until the final decision to shoot is made.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Thanks for clearing that up. At one time the FBI taught "prepping the trigger" as putting the finger on the trigger and taking up all the slack while holding a suspect at gunpoint -- in fact, an FBI agent wrote an article illustrating this "technique" for The American Rifleman.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Thanks for clearing that up. At one time the FBI taught "prepping the trigger" as putting the finger on the trigger and taking up all the slack while holding a suspect at gunpoint -- in fact, an FBI agent wrote an article illustrating this "technique" for The American Rifleman.

Whoa!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

That's what I thought when I saw a photograph in the article illustrating the "technique."

 

[sohcgt2]

There is no reason to detail strip a 1911 for routine cleaning. If you are doing this you don't need to. All it requires is a field strip.

I promise not to ever tell you how to take care of your equipment. I remove and clean the mainspring housing every time I shoot and remove soot from the mainspring housing every time I clean it. I will continue to maintain my equipment as if my life depended on it and I will be sure to post in bold print when and why my next failure occurs.

After the first shot, you have two choices. You can either let the trigger fully out, in which case firing the next round will be just like the first round with about a half an inch of light take-up. Or you can let the trigger out only until it resets. That basically eliminates the take-up for the next shot.

How is your description different from mine? first pull long, subsequent pulls short. Other than my good judgement stopping at the reset point as the firearm was designed, rather than fully releasing the trigger and starting over from scratch. I don't own any DA/SA autos, but what you suggest would be similar to lowering the hammer after each shot so as to only fire in DA mode. Based on your description however, I think we can agree the first pull is different from followup shots. As for my chiding sweet45, I learned that from the likes of oldtimers like you and RC and since sweet45 didn't respond I'll assume his skin is thicker than your own.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I remove and clean the mainspring housing every time I shoot and remove soot from the mainspring housing every time I clean it....

Have fun.

How is your description different from mine?...

You implied that it was inherent in the nature of the gun. It is not. It is a function of your technique -- a technique which is applicable to many guns. In any event, sweet45 was correct. And I do know what I'm talking about.

...I learned that from the likes of oldtimers like you...

And I suggest that you keep learning. You have a ways to go.