The .223 paradox

Status
Not open for further replies.
When shooting game, I want to anchor my target and kill it quickly. That's why I use larger calibers.

When defending myself, I'd prefer that my attacker(s) run off to die. They'd probably taste bad and the state generally frowns upon grinding them into burger and mounting their heads on your wall.
 
When defending myself, I'd prefer that my attacker(s) run off to die

You're just mean.

the state generally frowns upon grinding them into burger and mounting their heads on your wall.
Hasn't the state heard of "waste not want not"
By the way, I like cheese on my burgers.
 
Last edited:
Granted, the .223 is a small round, but why does the "man in war" vs "deer in nature" argument even come up?

Maybe the military should load their ammo with hunting loads, then the argument would be settled once and for all. I imagine a Barnes Triple Shock 62gr bullet would give excellent downrange performance on a "man in war" type target. Even with slightly marginal shot placement. :eek:

Typical combat shots aren't much more farther than hunting shots, and hunting shots are SQUEEZED singly, not BURSTS of 2 or 3 or 10. :neener:

:evil:
 
I imagine a Barnes Triple Shock 62gr bullet would give excellent downrange performance on a "man in war" type target
I have a feeling this would increase the 5.56's stopping power a fair bit. Wouldn't help with that whole barrier penetration problem though.
 
Why don't we just issue Tasers and capture all the enemy soldiers?
Because nowadays we'd have to Mirandize all of them, put 'em up for a while and then release them.

:cool:
 
Grffydd, yes there is that.

Might be a pain to carry multiples of different ammo.
 
Maybe the military should load their ammo with hunting loads, then the argument would be settled once and for all.
That would be a violation of international law. The Hague Convention prohibits ammunition "designed to cause unnecessary suffering." That includes hollowpoints and soft points.

Typical combat shots aren't much more farther than hunting shots, and hunting shots are SQUEEZED singly, not BURSTS of 2 or 3 or 10.

Which is why such huge amounts of ammunition are fired in combat, with very little effect.
 
Which is why such huge amounts of ammunition are fired in combat, with very little effect.
Much of this is suppressing fire, In other words, keep their heads down while you move into (or out of) position. Don't discount it's value.
 
That would be a violation of international law. The Hague Convention prohibits ammunition "designed to cause unnecessary suffering." That includes hollowpoints and soft points.
But given that the people we're currently fighting weren't parties to the Hague Convention...are we really bound by it?

Much of this is suppressing fire, In other words, keep their heads down while you move into (or out of) position. Don't discount it's value.
I'm going to venture a guess here that Vern knows quite well the value of suppressing fire, having laid down a fair share of it himself if I recall correctly.
 
That would be a violation of international law. The Hague Convention prohibits ammunition "designed to cause unnecessary suffering." That includes hollowpoints and soft points.

That's a bit backwards isn't it? Using less effective ammunition prolongs suffering, in my eyes. As far as I know the enemies our soldiers are fighting in the middle east don't have a medic available to them, at least not in the way our forces do. Sounds like a "feel good" law more than anything else..
 
+1 to that I hate teh moronic idea that .223 is designed to wound rather than kill, thus taking up more enemy resorces. Enemy wounded are still capable of shooting back, and no soldier is going to enter combat with ammo that can't kill. Why don't we just issue Tasers and capture all the enemy soldiers?

It makes some sense if you're planning for a defensive war across Germany, for example. Wounded are capable of shooting back, but with reduced likelihood and mobility. In a defensive war against a conventional enemy, the enemy does need to collect their wounded and care for them, or else face a serious loss of morale. If that means they field fewer troops, using a round with a smaller kill probability but a similar incapacitation probability, may present a strategic advantage.

We've got a better explanation (The smaller round allows soldiers to carry more ammunition), thus I don't think the former explanation is important. But I'm not inclined to say it has no validity at all, unless someone can persuasively argue that the strategic benefits are negligible or less.
 
+1 to that I hate teh moronic idea that .223 is designed to wound rather than kill, thus taking up more enemy resorces. Enemy wounded are still capable of shooting back, and no soldier is going to enter combat with ammo that can't kill. Why don't we just issue Tasers and capture all the enemy soldiers?
I guess I watched too much TV.
I knew there was a reason I did away with it!
Thanks for reminding me!
 
That's a bit backwards isn't it? Using less effective ammunition prolongs suffering, in my eyes. As far as I know the enemies our soldiers are fighting in the middle east don't have a medic available to them, at least not in the way our forces do. Sounds like a "feel good" law more than anything else..
I agree.
Barnes TSX and Nosler Partitions from now on!
 
Much of this is suppressing fire, In other words, keep their heads down while you move into (or out of) position. Don't discount it's value.
I've been in combat a time or two myself (and have the bullet holes to prove it.) Suppressive fire has to be killing fire -- you can't make enough noise to frighten good infantry.

Now shooting at suspected locations and keeping them under fire is less efficient than shooting at a clearly-defined target, but most full auto fre and most burst fire from hand-held weapons is worthless. It is much better to systematically work over a suspected enemy location with aimed, semi-auto fire than to spray and pray.
 
I would rather use a larger caliber for either. I've never fired an old battle rifle in .308, 7.62.54r, etc....and wondered whether it would be effective enough on man OR beast. In my mind the 7.62x39 or the 6.8 SPC (or similar) are good compromises in power, caliber, and portability for the troops.
 
There's a reason people go with a one-shot-stopper for hunting. Animals have an annoying tendency to run like hell, far, far away after you shoot at them - whether or not you hit the target. You'll only get one shot. You also don't want to 'ruin the meat' by shooting the critter up too much. Otherwise hunters would go with volley fire.

In a combat situation, people trade fire for a little while (at least a few seconds), then maybe run away. They don't care about eating what they've just shot. If it dies, surrenders, or runs away, it's a victory.
 
In my mind at least, good suppressing fire is not "spray and pray" but aimed fire. But I am funny that way.
You're exactly right. Suppressive fire is killing fire. The idea is you kill enough of them so the rest keep down and don't meddle with you while you maneuver against them.

This is best accomplished (with hand-held weapons) with methodical semi-automatic fire.
 
The difference I see in hunting wild game and hunting man, especially man on a battlefield is as follows:

-Deer when shot do not think like men, they run and they run FAST. Many times the deer run until they die and this means unless you use a weapon capable of dropping the deer on that spot or dropping it shortly after the kill then your hunt may be fruitless. I think most hunters have been in a situation where "the blood trail just stopped and I lost it."
-Humans when shot have a brain that tells them to fall down, take cover, and scream. This means the other humans around them tend to come to their aid. Now depending on adrenaline and the number of humans you are shooting at this may mean you get shot back at but that's not something I would count on.

In other words, when you are shooting people in combat as I understand it there is no need to drop them where they stand like a wild animal.
 
-Humans when shot have a brain that tells them to fall down, take cover, and scream. This means the other humans around them tend to come to their aid. Now depending on adrenaline and the number of humans you are shooting at this may mean you get shot back at but that's not something I would count on.
I have seen more than one human literally shrug off multiple hits from both 5.56 and 7.62X39 and continue to fight. Some of them died later, but they did damage before they quit.

I also made the mistake one time of stepping over a "dead" man, and he tried to shoot me in the back (fortunately, a man following me got him first.)
 
That's a bit backwards isn't it? Using less effective ammunition prolongs suffering, in my eyes. As far as I know the enemies our soldiers are fighting in the middle east don't have a medic available to them, at least not in the way our forces do. Sounds like a "feel good" law more than anything else..

IIRC the reasoning against hollow points and soft nose ammunition is these particular type tend to leave more crippling results should the person hit survive. Compare the number of limb amputations in the civil war era where soft lead ball was used against WWII with hard ball.
 
I never like using a round that is adequate for the job. I want a round that is overwhelmingly overqualified for the job, PARTICULARLY when what I am shooting at has the potential to kill me.

There are a couple of distinctions to remember here. One is how the rifle is actually employed in battle. Assault rifles are used to support the squad weapon or medium machine gun. While the squad weapon in this case actually shoots the same round, it shoots fifteen of them per second. The individual soldier's rifle is used while the squad weapon is providing suppressing fire, allowing soldiers to move. It is supplemental to the heavy force provided by the big guns. When soldiers use this rifle to clear houses, etc, it is always under cover and support of heavier guns. Now under most cases, soldiers who are clearing buildings also have shotguns.

Another distinction is that soldiers use burst or automatic fire. While I wouldn't pick one hit of 5.56 as the ideal man-stopper, I think three of them will do the job just as often as a heavier round. This is an option that soldiers have that the rest of us don't. I tell my soldiers that when we are training for marksmanship, their first priority is making sure that as many of their shots hit as possible. Their next priority is doing whatever they have to to survive. (Speed is fine, but accuracy is final.) Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. PARTICULARLY with the weapons they are issued. I would rather use the rifle and round that lets my petite female soldiers get as many hits as possible than the heavier rifle that they can't use effectively. I THINK, that we will move into a new policy of weapons procurement for the military in which heavy combat units and special forces units will see more flexible policies and funding for mission-specific weapons, but the rank and file support soldiers will use the M-16/M-4 for a LONG time to come.

For people who want to use an AR for their HD weapon, I say, go ahead, BUT, don't use the same ammo as the military. Use a dedicated load like Hornady TAP.

For hunting, I don't plan on using .223 for anything bigger than coyotes. I know guys who use .223/22-250 for deer, and are very effective with them because they know the rifle's limitations well enough to make ethical shots. I have also been in heated discussions with hunters who used these cartridges for convenience, wounded the animal, and didn't care. They refused to recognize that their choice of caliber may have been too small. Shot placement is certainly important, but you can say that a .22 is adequate if you can put that 40-grainer in the deer's eye every time. Shot placement is important no matter which bullet you use. But a heavier bullet gives you more room for error.

Again, 'adequate' isn't a word I like to hear when my life hangs on the shot. And remember, if you are fighting for your life, if the bad guy is capable of running away and dying, he is also capable of continuing to attack you. I don't want him capable of doing ANYTHING.
 
Last edited:
I have shot a "deer-sized animal" with a 5.56 xm193 round at about 200 yards. It died right away (liquid liver.) Most people who complain about the lack of stopping power of any caliber are just assuming it is the fault of the round, when it is almost always poor shot placement.


BTW there was no exit wound. The bullet went through the femur and then fragmented throughout the chest cavity. That is with a normal milspec round, not a fancy hollow point. Most calibers won't do this with an FMJ.


I'm not saying a bigger round wouldn't have worked just as well or better, but the idea that .223 just pokes a wee little .22 caliber hole is idiotic.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top