The .223 paradox

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Many people who keep comparing the 5.56x45(.223) to the 7.62x39 may not realized that the Soviets began replacing the 7.62x39 AK-47s in the 1970s with the 5.45x39 AK-74s. The AK-74 looks almost just like a AK-47, so what you are seeing in most cases in Russian (Soviet then) hands is an AK-74 not a AK-47. 5.45x39 is almost (note almost) a twin of the 5.56. This started after they got a look at what the 5.56 would do in Vietnam, so it would seem the Soviets (now Russians) were impressed with the little 5.56.
 
Remember also that in war, the object is to injure a person badly enough so it will take two other people to take that person off the battlefield. So, the 55g FMJBT is what most would want in the battlefield, as it ties up more of the enemies.

That works if your enemy carries their wounded off the battle field in the heat of battle. Personally, I prefer to kill the enemy. Having full auto with the 5.56 can pretty much accomplish that. So will a single round of 7.62 X 51.

One round of 7.62 X 51(.308 Win) will take a deer down with one good shot same as it will take down a man. Though other deer won't try to carry off a wounded deer, and hunting with full auto being taboo, I recommend the 7.62 X 51 over the 5.56 X 45 for both hunting deer and in battle. I somehow feel naked and vulnerable carrying .223.

Woody
 
Woody, our expereinces must have been different. Full auto hits very little.It is controlled shots no matter how fast on semi. I shot a deer under 20 yards with a 308.The shot was proberly placed.It ran over 200 yards. Most of the time,the M193 did what I needed in 1 shot. Byron
 
I have killed scores of wild hogs with the M193 military ball round. They are usually DRT. Have killed hogs from 20 pounds to over 350 pounds with one shot using that round. I usually aim low behind the shoulder. The bullet penetrates about 5", yaws 90 degrees and fragments; shredding the heart and lungs. At ranges over about 200 yards from a 24" barrel the magic is gone and the round loses much of its effectiveness.

Look at this piece by Dr. (Col) Martin L. Fackler:

http://www.rayguncharlie.net/sr/basics/pmrb.html
 
On the ex-wife's family farm we have killed hundreds of deer, with a pest control permit - with the .22 long rifle round. Dropped them in their tracks, on average about 20 deer per field.

It's nonsense to suggest that the .223 is not a capable hunting round.

I have harvested plenty of deer with a 75 grain jacketed hollow point .223 nosler boat tail and I didn't have to chase any of them after the shot.

Shot placement, if you can't do it - don't take the shot - or you can make up for a lack of ability with a larger caliber...
 
Byron

I agree on the full auto thing. You still have to aim.

As for the deer you shot at 20 yards with the 308 - - The muzzle blast from that range probably blew him the 200 yards! ----------------LOL, Just kidding!

It's a preference thing. I don't doubt that a 22LR could take out a deer as well.

Woody
 
Deer hunting is far closer to sniping than infantry fighting. Hunting arms tend to be similar to sniper weapons, not infantry weapons, for that reason....
Look at the brain on Ed! Good observations. Logical. Agree, or not, it’s hard to find fault with his reasoning.

ARs are really cool rifles. Americans LOVE their ARs so much. As much as they love deer hunting. They want, so bad, for those two loves to go together. For that little pipsqueak .223 round to work great on a big buck Whitetail.

But, in doing so, they’re relying solely on FEELINGS. Feelings. They’re not thinking with LOGIC. Or an understanding of PHYSICS. Or animal ANANOMY. Mathematics isn’t about feelings. Science isn’t about your wants.

IMO this argument that the .223 Rem is a good Whitetail cartridge can only be explained as a form of MASS HYSTERIA. Why else would so many, otherwise, knowledgeable and ethical hunters advocate it’s use?
 
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the way to deal with them is to kill them. To kill them, you have to hit them -- and that means well-aimed fire, not spray-and-pray.

+1 Agreed.

True objectives are only understood by people who have been in that situation. Remember, to those who watch TV and try to incorporate that into real life, "Common sense will NOT be tolerated!" :rolleyes:
 
The 5.56 can kill with one shot and it can wound too. No bullet is guaranteed. The 7.62 maybe bigger but is loses accuracy too quickly at longer than 300-400 yards. The military used to use 30.06 and .308 in battle but switched to 5.56 as a more effective and logisticly effecient round. Those larger calibers did the job, but were pretty heavy in both firarm and ammunition. 5.56 has just as much chance at one stop shot kills as any other similiar infantry round. Skill and training have huge roles in this but dumb luck and sheer coincidence does too, factors like weather, enemy's skills or frame of mind, sweat in your eye, random richochet, etc. Wounded enemy even if he isn't helped off the field is a major morale buster, if he bleeds out even better. You always hear about how someone got shot and kept on coming because it is abnormal and is different from the usual norm of just falling over dead that it makes for a great story and interesting item of chit chat.

As for grunts having notoriously bad shots? As compared to who? Just because some armchair quarterback can pop cans at 300 with his irons doesn't mean he can do the same thing when he's tired, exhausted, underfed, dehydrated, underfire, back hurting from humping too much gear, too far, in too much heat, you got a rock as cover, rounds pinging all around, dirt and debris filling your eyes, people screaming in your ears, adrenaline pumping through your veins, your heart thumping in your head, am I gonna die today? random thoughs like "That rock in my shoe is annoying" I miss my wife", does that kid have a gun? Am I going to go to jail when I get back home if I hit the wrong person? All while you are trying to take good shots and properly identifing the right targets. I'd like to see how you would fare, I think our troops shoot just fine. Combat is not like video games, or expensive classes, or shooting at the range. Some troops can turn a switch and be flawless and some can't. Don't blame the boys doing the dirty work, every aimed shot is gunning for a kill, but it's alot harder than you can "imagine."

I think hunters use larger calibers for hunting because some take those LONG shots and a larger round is the only answer, but the 5.56 can do the job on deer too with good placement and proper knowledge. I thought there was a law about shooting and only wounding large game if it did not die quickly, something about letting the animal suffer (I maybe wrong) as well as having to track an animal for long long distances. I think larger caliber in hunting can make up for less than perfect shots.

The 5.56 is a great round, it does the job and is well liked. Alot of people say I heard this one guy got shot 5 times and was still fighting, or this one guy got in the chest and kept on coming. What about the 15 guys that are dead around him? If the 5.56 was a poor perfomer than I think our troops would have no kills or have won any firefights. There are really strange things a human can do in battle, have a limb blown off and be completely numb to it and can keep coming, or a little nick to the neck and he's done. Wierd crazy things happen for a thousand different reasons and variables, and you can't judge the 5.56 on a singular "story" or comparing it to hunting situation.
 
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the way to deal with them is to kill them. To kill them, you have to hit them -- and that means well-aimed fire, not spray-and-pray.

+1 Agreed.

True objectives are only understood by people who have been in that situation. Remember, to those who watch TV and try to incorporate that into real life, "Common sense will NOT be tolerated!


+2

I have never used a .223/5.56mm on deer. But I've killed a hundred or so wild hogs with that caliber. Watched a big hog run for over a half mile after a friend shot it in the guts with his .300 Win Mag and a 180 grain bullet. We followed that hog into a thicket, he gut shot it again and that hog went another 200 yards before dying.

I've killed big wild hogs with guns ranging from the .22 LR to my .458 Alaskan Improved
. Hit a hog in the right place and it does not matter whether the bullet is from a M193 military ball round in 5.56mm or a .45 caliber rifle generating 3,500 pounds of energy.

The elusive search for the magic bullet that will turn a gut shot into a bang flop 100 percent of the time continues.
 
Yea, hunting is hell

here's a scene a little like combat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=segtXBwglj4

Here's one kinda like hunting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEHIkvQ7ISQ

This one I'm not sure about, I think they're hunting some sort of trophy buck or something, but seem to be having trouble with spotting him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv-jzCxv23Y

I don't know about you, but that hunter in the second video should have brought something a little bit bigger cause I don't think his bullets were very effective.... especially since that deer was totally hopped up on crack too. Maybe a .300 win mag will serve him better.... or maybe a 12 ga, since that you only have to point in the general direction. The last video, they should have just used a few 45-70s, since those are pretty lethal on all the deer I've seen.

:rolleyes:
 
Panda Bear , you said it well. Welcome Home! If I can ever be of help, send me a private message. Byron
 
I always wondered where the idea that soldiers and Marines actually are taught to use the burst or auto selectors on their rifles comes from. Must be from way back when. If they did teach that, its long gone. If a Drill Sergeant ever saw your rifle past semi, it was a long painful day for you. The training I went through in 02 was one shot one kill. Unless it was room clearing then it was double taps to COM. I dont think in my 4 years in the Army I ever shot a M16 on burst.
 
In the late '80's I shot burst mode with a group of Marines during a training exercise, it was the only time, as the Navy didn't let us. It was part of their drill. They weren't aimed bursts, they were point fired bursts at 10yds. Going for CNS groups.

Come to think of it, that's probably the last time I shot burst/auto. :(
 
kernel said:
ARs are really cool rifles. Americans LOVE their ARs so much. As much as they love deer hunting. They want, so bad, for those two loves to go together. For that little pipsqueak .223 round to work great on a big buck Whitetail.

I hunt deer with my .223 - it isn't an AR. Every deer I've ever shot with a .223 dropped right where I shot it.

Should I believe your post or my lying eyes?
 
^^^^^

In your case substitute your favorite cool little rifle for “AR”. It’s the same thing. Reread my post. I don’t claim the .223 unable to drop a deer in one shot. It can. A number of posts on this thread clearly state that. Some are using the .22 rimfire! Compared to the .22 LR the .223 is a 375 H&H.

My deal is: I don’t think the .223 is a GOOD CHOICE. That assumes you had a choice. If it’s the only rifle you have, or it’s what’s expedient, then by all means have at it. But, if you DID have a choice between the .223, and something more powerful, I’d recommend using something more powerful.

It’s the whole mass, velocity, diameter thing. I’m burdened with the knowledge that bullets aren’t magic lighting bolts. They are moving projectiles with properties can be measured and known. Numbers mean things and after you study them for a while you come to see the .223 cartridge is not near as great as the cool rifles you can shoot it in.

Regarding the “deer vs. man argument” and the effectiveness of the .223. That has to do with two things. A deer needs MORE GUN because: 1.) deer are like 4-6 times stronger than your average human being, and 2.) deer (all animals, really) behave very differently than men, when struck by a bullet.
 
Your entire argument was that people hunted with the .223 because they were emotional about the AR sysytem. Now you are changing your tune.

Sounds like you are a little too emotional about the topic. I hunt with various calibers and have found the .223 in a 75 grain hollow point hunting round to be more than adequate for harvesting deer.

I've taken 300lbs charging wild boar with a .223 no problem.

If you feel you need a larger caliber, use what you feel comfortable with - just don't tell me to ignore my firsthand experience of over 20 years with a proven caliber. In my personal experience it has been effective 100% of the time.
 
Shot placement is important, but its not a matter of "if" the round can do the job, or not. Its a matter of what caliber to use to make the quickest kill. You owe that to the animal and there should be no "well I think it can do the job" or "if I hit it in the right spot". If you can get a deer with a 223 and make a quick kill than thats great and I give you all the credit in the world. But, I think if there is an argument on weather the round can do the job, or not, then you should probably get a larger round.That being said, I have seen many deer taken with a 223, as well as large hogs. The 223 is a proven round, and can, and will get the job done.
 
weeeee I'm gonna jump in the ring here..

Bottom line is... Hunt with what you want as long as it is legal for your location. If it gets the job done for you and you are happy with it then why get into it with anybody over what round will drop what.. Just take plenty of pictures when you do it with what the say couldn't be done :)
 
Wounding was considered preferable to killing -- costs a lot more to care for wounded soldier than to bury one. 5.56 was accepted under this notion. Even so, a lot of folks have been killed with it.

So -- good enough for combat, not good enough for deer, and doesn't always stop and adversary.
 
Emotional? I prefer the term passionate.

Dammitboy, by all means stick to your lighting bolts. I have a feeling I’ll never change your mind, based as it is on 20 years of daring-do with the .223. I’m writing for those newer, less-capable hunters, that might be read my post and think, “Instead of using my wonderful little NAME OF YOUR RIFLE HERE in .223, for deer hunting this season, I should ask Uncle Bob if I can borrow his .30-06.” It is for them I toil.

Or for that guy who’s thinking about getting a new deer rifle. Long story short -- if you really want a short-action chambering make it a 6.8 SPC. As a deer harvesting machine, it’s got twice the potential of a .223. I’ve been down the 6x45 road and there’s still room for improvement. The SPC is a big step forward.

Your right about the AR, though. I should of written that posts about short-action rifles in general. Those cool little short-action rifles. It’s hard not to love them all. My post would have had more mass appeal and impact, if I had been more generic, and not mentioned a specific rifle.

Really, I just wanted to acknowledge Ed’s great post. This whole “.223 for deer” argument has been done to death. It’s right up there with “.45 vs. 9mm“ or “auto vs. revolver“, predating the internet by decades. Usually, I’d just skip over this type of thread, but this time I didn’t, and I’m glad I did because Ed’s post made some unique points I’d never heard before. Plus, they reconfirmed my own person beliefs, so that’s not a bad thing either.

I was going to just “+1” what he said, but then I went off on my own little rant about the inadequacy of the .223 for deer, and my own tongue-in-cheek theory on MASS HYSTERIA. I felt like someone needed to defend the faith. I was half expecting the next post to endorse the use of air soft pellets propelled by nothing but magnum pistol primers.
 
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