Law Enforcement Orgs choosing 1911...

[Handy]

Actually, I didn't say that it wouldn't stand up to mud. I said that it wouldn't stand up to all the enviromental conditions that a US military pistol is tested for. That included freezing temps, sticky mud (one part of the M9 trials was redone due to the mud not being sticky enough).

In those trials the failure rate for the 1911-A1 was just a few in several thousand rounds fired. You had one in fourteen rounds fired.

This demonstrates...?


Actually, remembering WAAAAY back to the jibe that started this, Admiral Thrawn opinioned that a tight gun like the HRT pistol may be delicate compared to a Glock. So a fair test for that would be to drop your gun on concrete and see if it cycles with the match bushing dinged or a tightened frame rail banged a bit. A military gun would, because the bushing and rails have plenty of clearance.

 

[gumshoe4]

But incidentally, where did we get the idea that grip was not important with Glocks? Glocks are very suspectible to misfeed when they are limp-wristed, because there's already not much weight reciprocating there. In my last agency, we carried Glock 22s. They were good firearms, but investigators occasionally sufferred misfeeds with the guns towards the end of the range session when they were fatigued and started limp-wristing the guns. I never did overcome that problem with the Glock 27 I owned at the time.

I disagree with the theory that grip is not a particularly important factor in getting the gun to go off when the gun is a Glock.

Bob
TFL# 8032

 

[Handy]

Yeah, the washing picture helped. It wasn't clear that spring5 was after it was washed.


I don't think our friends in the Special Olympics would have appreciated the implications of your remark.

 

[Steve Smith]

Note to self: Don't buy a gun from Tamara.

 

[Handy]

I was thinking the same thing, but I didn't get the feeling she would be big on constructive criticism right now.

 

[DeltaElite]

Why on Earth would you do that to your own gun Tamara?

FWIW, I find Glocks to be more reliable than 1911's of the same dollar value.
I prefer 1911's, but I carry Glocks due to dept edict.

 

[Handy]

Anybody but Tamara and I have an opinion on the battlefield reliability of tighter-than-issue 1911s?

I have my humble opinion and would like to hear someone else's.

 

[Sean Smith]

Handy, you don't have a humble opinion about anything.

But it is good that you are here to be the herald of hyper-sensitivity and political correctness.

Actually, I didn't say that it wouldn't stand up to mud.

And to quote you: "...will not stand up to much mud..."

 

[Handy]

"...will not stand up to much mud, snow or ice..."

is the full quote. Meaning, not JUST mud, but other stuff, too.


Sean, do you work for a politician?

 

[DeltaElite]

Here ya go Handy.

I think a precision 1911 would be as reliable or more reliable than a lesser 1911.
1911's are finicky in my experience, very finicky.
I guess I don't know, due to lack of experience with high end 1911's.
As I have stated before, I believe there are more reliable platforms out there, such as my Glocks.

My answer is as clear as the mud on Tamaras 1911.

 

[12-34hom]

1911

I have a Para P-14ltd that accurate and reliable, never been on any "battlefield" with it, but trust it for duty carry. Changing the sites and mag springs are the only modifications i've done to it.

Does that count?

Had a Glock model 20, had quite a few FTF with that weapon.

Hopefully my D.W. "Razorback" will be here by the end of March.

A 1911 style weapon in 10mm.

Call me old fashioned, i want a manual saftey on every gun i own & shoot.

The design & Feel of 1911 style weapons lends itself to the inherient accuracy of this weapon.

12-34hom.

 

[Tamara]

Handy,

Meaning, not JUST mud, but other stuff, too.

Sorry, not a lot of snow or ice in E.TN in late March. I thought we'd take that as a given, but maybe it's harsher than mud.

It wasn't clear that spring5 was after it was washed.

No, "spring5" was before it was washed but after it was shot. (The teflon finish tends to fling crap off while firing.)

Sean, do you work for a politician?

So, youre denying you said "would not stand up to much mud"?

Look, you made statements about a gun you have no experience with. I took that gun out and refuted those statements. Are you changing your statements, or retracting them?

 

[BerettaNut92]

Tamara How can you...[speechress]

Tamara's a professional...it says so on her gun!

 

[Art Eatman]

ROFL! I'd say the lady did indeed win her point, as well as game, set and match!



Art

 

[Handy]

The full quote being:

It was particularly funny that she was being sarcastic, considering she WAS referring to a 1911 target pistol (HRT pistol) that probably will not stand up to much mud, snow or ice without locking up.

I understand from English class that "or" implies a choice of any single item, but the intent was to be inclusive of all three items without implying that the snow, ice and mud had to be used at the same time.

That is, that a good military 1911 would have sufficient clearance for ANY of those conditions, not just the "mud" in the partial quote.


Tamara, I thank you for your 14 round proof of the mud resistance of the HRT and all that is implied by the test.

So, why do you think the military guns have all that extra clearance? You've more than demonstrated that it is unnecessary and likely contributes little to accuracy.

 

[rennaissancemann]

Handy...

As a rule, good military 1911's and military weapons in general, do not have sufficient clearance for any significant quantity of foreign matter. The design of military weapons does make allowances for unburned powder that accumulates when the weapon cannot be cleaned after each use and the dirt, mud, snow, etc. that enters the weapon through it's ejection port.

McBride in "A Rifleman Went to War" describes how the members of his machinegun section carried their pistols in the small of the back to protect them from the mud of the trenches.

Guns break and jam Handy, usually when you need them most.

Relax, take a deep breath, make yourself a cup of your favorite decaf beverage...

 

[Dr.Rob]

Tam, it proves you can't trust target wadcutters ina dirty gun.. but hey we ALL know that right? (Heck my 1950's Commander that went to Korea will hiccup on wadcutters if you shoot a three hundred of them in a row without a wipe-down)

Handy, I'd have to agree in PRINCIPLE that the worst thing to do to a 1911 is "tighten" it up. Those loose tolerances let sand, water, mud, etc OUT of the mechanism. Colt Gold Cups are notorious for being 'overtight'. I think Tam is trying (and convincingly so) to explain, the HRT pistol ain't your daddy's Gold Cup. For the record I can't imagine intentionally burying my pretty pony in a mudbog to make my point.

And like Art, whenI shoot IDPA I use a single action (FEG Hi-Power or a 1911), wiping the safety off as you present is something you have to be taught, but once you learn it, its like riding a bike, it's just a natural movement. You have another safety while doing this called keeping your finger out of the trigger guard. That goes for revolvers, glocks or your shotgun.

Rather than issue a glock/Sig/SW auto, why not just issue revolvers?

 

[Quartus]

I understand from English class that "or" implies a choice of any single item, but the intent was to be inclusive of all three items without implying that the snow, ice and mud had to be used at the same time.

Positively Klintonian!

 

[El Tejon]

The El Tejon "action figure." Let's see, it really wouldn't involve action, maybe inaction--sitting behind a desk, talking on the phone, rubbing head while person in county blues tells you "there CAN'T be any witnesses", staring out window counting days until in Texas, bleating for secretary to bring in file or salvage an e-mail, pleading with prosecutors and people in black dresses, et al. It would have to be untall and unlanky, that way you could haul it around to all the usual haunts--Starbuck's, court, the office and the treadmill at the gym where you can use the mirror to see the 7 o'clock Turbo Kick class.

If you want to know about high end 1911s and gunk, I have used both Wilson CQBs and Les Baer TRS at my tactical golf vacations without cleaning them, did lube them in the mornings. They ran just fine. Have a buddy who did some thing with a Les Baer SRP (switch off with another 1911).

For some reason (prior militree service or rumors therein), a lot of people think a 1911 has to be a rattletrap to run. Not so. It's about the machining, which is about the Benjamins, not the bling-bling.

When I decided to go with them, I took them to my gun club here and coated with with river clay. They ran just fine, however lots of modern pistols can do that now. I did it to a Crock and it was just fine. I imagine lots of other pistols will do the same.

However, all guns break. Plan on it and you won't have trouble. As Uncle Jeff is fond of saying, don't let the sun set on a dirty gun.

 

[DeltaElite]

Indeed all guns do break.
That's why I carry at least two at a time, no matter the manufacturer.

 

[Sean Smith]

I understand from English class that "or" implies a choice of any single item, but the intent was to be inclusive of all three items without implying that the snow, ice and mud had to be used at the same time.

Good evasion, Handy. You get a candy.

I thought your statment was pretty clear, what with the "or" and all. Darn Standard American English!

 

[Sean Smith]

On to Handy's comment, injected ex post facto, concerning tightness and reliability in general.

Historically, guns made with very tight clearances between parts tend to have reliability problems in extreme combat zone filth. I belive that Lugers had this problem in World War I.

However, bear in mind that those 1911s used in World War I were *NOT* the sloppy rattletraps people shot in 1979. They weren't, in fact, particularly loose at all. They were made with reasonable clearances between parts, where appropriate. Just juding subjectively, the guns didn't start loosening up from the factory alot until World War II, and of course over decades of use they were shot to pieces and re-built over and over again.

You start making things too tight, and fine grit can sieze everything up. Make it too loose, and accuracy will EVENTUALLY crap out... but slide-to-frame fit isn't a big factor here. Barrel quality and barrel-to-slide and barrel-to-bushing fit are what is vital for 1911 accuracy. At extreme looseness, reliability starts to crap out as you loose mechanical repeatability shot over shot.

How relevant to the topic at hand that is (LEO use of the 1911), I dunno. You can get a 1911 pretty tight and still tolerate quite a bit of filth (see Tam's gun for details). Or you can make a gun pretty loose in most places and shoot into 1.5" at 25 yards.

 

[Handy]

Well it's settled then.

EVERYONE should be carrying cocked and locked 1911s with tightly fitted parts and MIM internals, just as some SWAT teams do.

1. Tightly fitted 1911s are as reliable in all conditions as ANY other combat gun.

2. The Kimber product is not "delicate", it is actually more robust than a Glock or similar.

3. DA triggers contribute to sloth. The 1911 two step is superior because it requires more training and is grab proof. The safety could not possibly prevent the officer from firing their weapon in any circumstance.


That just about sums up everything I've been wrong about. Thanks for the debate.

 

[Sean Smith]

2. The Kimber product is not "delicate", it is actually more robust than a Glock or similar.

Who said that? Not *I*. I compared a "good" 1911 to a Glock. I consider the MIM parts that populate a Kimber cheesey. Since I was the one who compared good 1911s to Glocks:

A good 1911 is full of fairly massive machined parts made from heat-treated steel. A Glock is full of flimsier stampings and plastic.

Glocks hold up really well, don't get me wrong. But what people overlook in all those Glock torture tests is that they have a habit of breaking trigger mechanisms at very high round counts (as the FBI discovered).

Take the guns apart. Look at the internal components. Read up on the FBI's Glock trials. Tell me I'm wrong. Heck, I defy you to find a mention of "Kimber" in my topic about 1911 vs Glock durability at all.

 

[Handy]

Sean,

The Kimber was one of only two LE issued 1911's cited in the last 4 pages. Of the two choices, one at $650 and the other $1700, which would your PD likely end up with?


The Glock "trigger component failure" you're speaking of is likely not any of those stamped parts you take great issue with: It's the little trigger spring that is well known to break. The NY trigger eliminates this part and makes the Glock trigger a little more stumble proof.