Law Enforcement Orgs choosing 1911...

[Minute_Of_Torso]

The FBI HRT adopted the Springfield Armory TRP-PRO 1911A1.
LAPD SWAT adopted the Kimber LAPD SWAT II (Kimber Custom II) 1911A1.

I don't follow what LEO's carry, too much, but I do notice that the vast majority of our local police (city, county, and state) carry mostly Glocks (mostly G22's) and it seems that a lot of other police departments are using the Glocks, SiGs, or the HK's in .40.

Besides the eternal caliber preference debate (9mm vs. .45 and/or .40 vs. .45) what factors caused the FBI and LAPD SWAT to buck the law enforcement trend of smaller/faster caliber and higher capacity handguns?

I would assume that budget issues, durability, accuracy, maintenance & repair, and reliability issues weighed heavilly in the decision but did these weigh heavier than the caliber issue?

Thanks for any info.

 

[Spark]

It's because they have more training, better budgets, and a differant mission where the sidearm is a backup, not primary weapon. Differant tool for a differant job. Anyhow, who cares what the cops use?

 

[Archer]

what factors caused the FBI and LAPD SWAT to buck the law enforcement trend of smaller/faster caliber and higher capacity handguns?

Two completely separate issues.

FBI wrote the request for proposal for what turned out to be the Springfield Professional based heavily upon accuracy and reliability with cost nearly ignored. Plenty of articles and discussion on the subject. Quoting from one:

“After the Branch Davidian incident in Waco, Texas (1993), the Heymann Report recommended that the SWAT tactical elements become standardized throughout the FBI. Based upon the Heymann recommendation, the SWAT Training Unit began to develop specifications to standardize all SWAT team pistols. It was determined that accuracy would be the number one factor in developing a SWAT pistol.†(Emphasis is in the original FBI report.)

Bottom line, FBI bought a no-holds-barred custom combat 1911 with 1.5 inch accuracy, bulletproof reliability, and a few racegun features (what's a SWAT guy REALLY need with a mag funnel ?), and paid accordingly (around $1700 cost per unit to the Bureau).

LAPD SWAT had BUDGET as a major consideration. You cannot compare the Kimber to the Springfield FBI pistol and have it be a fair match with respect to the Kimber. LAPD supposedly paid around $600/unit which is a darn good price.

I have a Professional model and like it a good deal.


As for the specific reason for the .45acp over the 9 and .40 ?

Maybe F=ma might be enough of an answer. The FBI supposedly won't say. However, in a year 2000 American Handgunner article, Cameron Hopkins wrote:

An informed source, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said, “The decision was reached that in the hands of an average police officer, a single-action pistol may not be the safest tool. But if you take a guy who is, by his job definition, a shooter, who’s to be out in a shooting situation, when they gave these guys a DA pistol, they just didn’t shoot as well. You can shoot far more proficiently with a single-action pistol. The guns that these guys shot the best was—guess what?— the 1911 pistol.â€

While I'm not a fan of "anonymous sources" that does make sense.

 

[Admiral Thrawn]

The FBI's choice of the Springfield 1911-A1 Professional Model raised the question in my head of durability and reliability.

With those two factors in mind, I assume that this pistol was chosen for use in urban environments, and that for prolonged use in very harsh conditions, such as in military service, a Glock / H&K Mark 23 would be preferable.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Tamara]

Admiral Thrawn,

With those two factors in mind, I assume that this pistol was chosen for use in urban environments, and that for prolonged use in very harsh conditions, such as in military service, a Glock / H&K Mark 23 would be preferable.

Oh, for sure! The 1911 is a target pistol and would never hold up to the mud of the trenches in the Meuse-Argonne or the snow and ice of the Chosin Reservoir.

 

[Soap]

Tam,

lol

 

[Sean Smith]

Just to echo Tam's obvious point, people who rave about the durability of Glocks vs "fragile" 1911s obviously haven't detail stripped either one and compared the internal components. A good 1911 is full of fairly massive machined parts made from heat-treated steel. A Glock is full of flimsier stampings and plastic.

Glocks hold up really well, don't get me wrong. But what people overlook in all those Glock torture tests is that they have a habit of breaking trigger mechanisms at very high round counts (as the FBI discovered).

 

[Correia]

The last issue of SWAT had a great article on this very subject focusing on Tacoma PD.

 

[El Tejon]

All guns break, just buy more copies. "Honey, forget about the new carpet. Some guy on the Internet told me to buy another _____."

The 1911 was never banished entirely; it was present through the US. LA SWAT has long carried the 1911. The change in the high profile agencies (note only certain segments) such as the FBI represents a change in the FTU influenced by modern training techniques.

Once the change manifests itself in the high profile agencies, it will invariably ripple throughout LE. "If it's good enough for the FBI, then . . ."

 

[DMK]

The thing that I've always wondered is isn't capacity an issue?

A 7 round single stack .45 was high tech in WWII, but there are quality higher capacity 45s now.

 

[sanchezero]

The thing that I've always wondered is isn't capacity an issue?

Again, you're back to the intended use of the pistol. It's not a SWAT guy's primary weapon.

When they dump 30rnds outta their longgun and need to go quick to a gun they can shoot accurately, they seem to prefer the mmmmtasty trigger of the 1911 to put those few extra holes where they need 'em.

Some agency, maybe FBIs HRT, ordered a shload of paraords for their capacity but apparently couldn't keep 'em running.

 

[9mmepiphany]

capacity of a handgun is seldom a consideration in a LE spec ops unit...having said that, our department SED teams just converted from the sig 220 .45 (7rds) to the sig 226 .40 (12rds)

the 1911 has always been questionable as a general issue weapon un LE as it requires more committment to training then many officers are willing to expend. this is not a "knock", just an observation. spec ops units spend many magnitudes of time training compared to the line officers and usually have a different comittment as well

 

[Handy]

A 1911 is a good offensive weapon-if you know you'll be shot at, it's a good one for accurately shooting back. Swat stuff, IPSC.

A DA gun is a good reactive weapon. When a broken tail light becomes a gun battle its better to have a gun and trigger that require the minimum manipulation and least positive grip to begin returning fire. Regular cops and CCW holders are better off with a reactive gun.

 

[Quartus]

it requires more committment to training then many officers are willing to expend.

MAJOR understatement!



And a clue to why what cops carry is not directly applicable to what your average Gun Nut Joe (or Joan) should carry.

 

[DeltaElite]

I would carry my Delta as a duty weapon in a heartbeat, of course having a major caliber like the 10mm is a good thing also.
I would carry a high quality 1911 in a heartbeat, in 45acp or 38 Super.
I will leave the sub calibers to other folks.
I have to carry the Glock, but not in 10mm.

Alot of cops still carry 1911's, just ask Clem.

 

[Tamara]

Handy,

Regular cops and CCW holders are better off with a reactive gun.

That's what I like about your posts; not an "IMHO" in sight...

(Is a P7 a reactive gun?)

 

[Handy]

And what do I enjoy about your posts, Tamara? I like that you always confine yourself to put downs and personal digs, IMHO.


Since you asked, firing a P7 involves nothing more than squeezing your fingers. As long as you have one finger on the trigger and at least one other below the guard and apply DA type trigger pressure, it'll fire, IMHO.

Here's a test: Will you be able to fire the duty weapon if, during a bad draw, your thumb ends up very low or on the wrong side of the grip? A revolver, DA auto, Glock and P7 all will (IMHO). The 1911 may have an issue with either the grip safety or finding and deactivating the safety, IMHO. Training is of course helpful, but we are talking about drawing while being knocked down.



Going back to your original comment, I don't really understand the need to state that something is an opinion in a thread requesting opinions, in my humble opinion. But that's just my opinion.

Is there requirement as well? I am about that and might be making people when I write something that's supposed to be and leave out the . It can be so :banghead: trying to please everyone. (IMHO)

 

[Quartus]

I dunno, maybe I'm a little slow, but....

Was that sarcasm?

 

[Tamara]

Handy,

And what do I enjoy about your posts, Tamara? I like that you always confine yourself to put downs and personal digs, IMHO.

IMHO, there was no such thing in my post. If you think there was, point it out. Quote it.

Here's a test: Will you be able to fire the duty weapon if, during a bad draw, your thumb ends up very low or on the wrong side of the grip? A revolver, DA auto, Glock and P7 all will (IMHO). The 1911 may have an issue with either the grip safety or finding and deactivating the safety, IMHO. Training is of course helpful, but we are talking about drawing while being knocked down.

I'm sorry, but I have to completely disagree, there; the P7 is just as, if not more, dependent on a proper grip from the holster to fire.

PS: "your thumb ends up ... on the wrong side of the grip?" I am having a difficult time envisioning this, and I am sitting here attempting it with a P7, 1911, and a DA revolver...

I have to honestly ask (and I truly intend no sarcasm in the question) do you think everyone who carries a 1911 is doing so out of nostalgia or the desire to emulate FBI SWAT or Sergeant York?

 

[El Tejon]

Handy, the answer to your question is (with the 1911) yes it can be done. Excellent point about importance of ground fighting. That's where we'll likely be, train for it.

Tamara, FYI, I carried a 1911 long before the fibbies adopted their version, thus FBI SQUAT copied me. FTU and I share the same gunskul masters in the course of our tactical golf vacation, er, I mean Journey to Englightenment.

I think Handy means grasping the 1911 with off hand. Education provides the answer. BTW, I want to emulate McBride, not York. Yeah, Yankees!

 

[Soap]

Handy- Practice will solve all of the problems you are describing. Indexing a grip (in any position) properly comes with practice. Taking off the safety when presented with a threat is reactive if you practice. And if one doesn't train, it doesn't matter how "reactive" one's gun is, since they are not.

 

[TheFrontRange]

I guess no local PDs or SOs here (B'ham, AL vicinity) directly issue 1911s but I sure see a few of them in duty holsters...most of the departments in this area require an officer to supply their own sidearm, anyway, it appears.

A while back I exchanged emails with a guy I purchased a holster over Ebay from...he was an LEO in Arizona, though I can't remember what city...his PD had been issuing Springfield Armory Mil-Specs.

 

[Handy]

Proper grip, example two:

Tamara, put your arsenal on the ground, right side up. Now pick each gun up with just the pads of your thumb and fingers without attempting to get your thumb underneath or palm against the stocks. This simulates a bad snatch at the pistol. Attempt to operate the trigger.

As long as you have some purchase on both the back and front of the grip, you'll be able to fire anything, including the P7, that doesn't have a safety to manipulate.

A "proper grip" is always important, but something like a Glock can be operated with the worst possible hold and just a thumb and index finger. A little more effort with a DA trigger. The same effort and the addition of a middle finger with the P7. And then the 1911 takes a fully seated web and the thumb far enough over on the left side. Hence, the 1911 is the LEAST tolerant of a bad hold on the grip.

And as El Tejon aludes, that's just using when using your right hand.



And for a quote, starts with "Oh for sure!" and goes on to cut on Admiral Thrawn for not realizing Kimbers (with brittle MIM safety levers) were actually used at Meuse-Argonne and the Chosin Reservoir! So, apparently, was the match fitted HRT pistol. But, IMHO, neither of those guns would fare too well with a truck parked on them. And I doubt you think so either.

 

[Handy]

Oops, forgot the at the end of that last post.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Apples and oranges.

The squeeze cocker of the P7 works if you grip it correctly. The grip safety on a 1911 works if you grip it correctly. Neither will fire if not held properly. That's a good thing.

Back on topic, Denver PD allows the Colt 1911, Kimber and Springfield. Most officers who want to carry a 45 try to qualify with a Glock 21, also on the apporved list. They find rather quickly that ANY 45 is a lot of gun to an untrained recruit. Most guys packing 1911's are detectives rather than uniform cops, though you do occasionally see a stainless Colt or 1991A1.

There is something kind of.. menacing about seeing a cocked and locked 1911 or BHP, but in actuality its NO different from a SIG or USP or Beretta carried hammer down. No issue pistol will fire unless YOU make it fire.

I think also with the popularity of the wondernine, be it a CZ or a Glock or whatever, plus agressive marketing to law enforcement (ala Glock) and new calibers, 40, 357 sig, etc, you won't see the 1911 making a huge comeback in the duty-belt crowd. There are guns that are lighter, hold more bullets and require less training than the grand old 1911.

It's still a serious side arm.