Law Enforcement Orgs choosing 1911...
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Handy
Guest
Dr. Rob,
Strawberries and mangos.
The 1911 has a grip safety, AND a manual safety. The grip must be sufficient to disengage both.
Strawberries and mangos.
The 1911 has a grip safety, AND a manual safety. The grip must be sufficient to disengage both.
I'd rather go on seeing the 1911 used by the "elite" anyways. That way, its use in military/police circles mirrors its use in the rest of the shooting community.
I don't know that it is an unmitigated bonus to have a weapon be able to be fired with any ol' input on the trigger alone. Manual safeties have undoubtedly saved the lives of many police officers during weapon retention struggles.
The main design aim of safety-less pistols is to save their users from their own sense of panic from their own use of the firearm.
They are even marketed using various euphemisms for "poorly trained." IMHO
Pistols like the BHP and 1911 are the pistols of serious shooters, every other pistol design is either dumbed down for the lowest common denominator or overly complex to achieve a dumbed down result. AGAIN IMHO.
I don't know that it is an unmitigated bonus to have a weapon be able to be fired with any ol' input on the trigger alone. Manual safeties have undoubtedly saved the lives of many police officers during weapon retention struggles.
The main design aim of safety-less pistols is to save their users from their own sense of panic from their own use of the firearm.
They are even marketed using various euphemisms for "poorly trained." IMHO Pistols like the BHP and 1911 are the pistols of serious shooters, every other pistol design is either dumbed down for the lowest common denominator or overly complex to achieve a dumbed down result. AGAIN IMHO.
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Handy
Guest
Safetyless handguns pre-date those with safeties. There must have been alot of handgun related panic in the 19th century.
Tamara
Senior Member
Handy,
I'm still trying to operate my P7 and DA wheelguns with my "thumb on the wrong side of the gun".
Without the web of my thumb against the backstrap to provide something for the cocking lever/DA trigger to work against, 9 times out of 10 it results in the gun popping out of my hand. Heck, with my thumb on the wrong side of the gun, it sometimes fouls the cylinder on DA wheelguns...
With my Professional, at least the meat of my hand makes contact with the memory groove/hump/lump on the grip safety, and the ambi thumb safety lets me get off one round before, presumably, recoil would result in it popping out of my hand.
Do you often have trucks parked on your sidearms?
Imagine: El Tejon's been to all thes skuls, studying under Master Ching-Ching Kapow and Sufi Taprakbang, and still insists on carrying an impractical-for-CCW 1911!
I'm still trying to operate my P7 and DA wheelguns with my "thumb on the wrong side of the gun".
Without the web of my thumb against the backstrap to provide something for the cocking lever/DA trigger to work against, 9 times out of 10 it results in the gun popping out of my hand. Heck, with my thumb on the wrong side of the gun, it sometimes fouls the cylinder on DA wheelguns...
With my Professional, at least the meat of my hand makes contact with the memory groove/hump/lump on the grip safety, and the ambi thumb safety lets me get off one round before, presumably, recoil would result in it popping out of my hand.
Do you often have trucks parked on your sidearms?
Imagine: El Tejon's been to all thes skuls, studying under Master Ching-Ching Kapow and Sufi Taprakbang, and still insists on carrying an impractical-for-CCW 1911!
Handy:
Pistols not handguns, but if back in the day one happened to carry the old Walker Colt, "mexican style" the odd mesquite branch getting caught in the trigger wasn't going to set it off because having to manually cock the hammer was the safety on those old SA revos. For about half of the revo heyday, there was no "point and click." There also weren't any marketing geniuses running Conestogas over their products, because their customers weren't that gullible.
Now, one dare not catch his/her duty holster retention strap in the trigger guard of his or her Glock and expect it not to fire. But hey, that's innovative!!!!
Pistols not handguns, but if back in the day one happened to carry the old Walker Colt, "mexican style" the odd mesquite branch getting caught in the trigger wasn't going to set it off because having to manually cock the hammer was the safety on those old SA revos. For about half of the revo heyday, there was no "point and click." There also weren't any marketing geniuses running Conestogas over their products, because their customers weren't that gullible.
Now, one dare not catch his/her duty holster retention strap in the trigger guard of his or her Glock and expect it not to fire. But hey, that's innovative!!!!
H
Handy
Guest
A comment relating directly to YOUR comment about the relative durability of 1911s. So, are you know saying the durability ISN'T an issue? You certainly took issue when Admiral Thrawn brought up durability.
Verrry slippery.
And you know darn well I'm not as smart or good with guns as El Tejon! Of course he knows better! What was I, or anyone else who doesn't practice what El Tejon does, thinking? It's really inexcusable!!
Got to get down the with the El Tejon mode.
So who is this El Tejon guy, anyway? Is there an action figure available?
(El Tejon, no offense. I'm really not familiar with your bio, your name has just become strangely involved. Please feel free to insert "Wild Bill" whenever you read your name in the above paragraphs.)
DeltaElite
Member
Damn, I never realized how stupid us 1911 users were til I read this thread. 
What an outdated piece of metal, I am so ashamed.
Oh, ain't the P7 only made in sub calibers anyway?
What an outdated piece of metal, I am so ashamed.
Oh, ain't the P7 only made in sub calibers anyway?
DeltaElite
Member
ROFLMAO
Funny, if the sine non qua of defensive handguns is the ability to hold one's parking space, the XD is every bit the equivalent of the Glock line and the Glock fans should quit denigrating the XD for its lack of a "track record." It now seems that the XD can be parked upon at any track in the world and has seen just about as much combat as any Glock has.
H
Handy
Guest
Boats,
If you are at all familiar with my pet peaves, you realize I agree about the Glock.
Actually using the safety on a handgun is a product of the latter half of the last century. As you point out, SA revolvers used no safety. Then DA revolvers came out, still no safety. Then SA autos came out, some had safeties, almost none were carried cocked with the safety on, including the 1911.
Cocked and locked carry, in handguns, is one of the newest ways of carrying a sidearm. It was only popularized in the '50s, well after DA triggers for carry were well established. This new carry method is more complicated than any other, but grants the benefit of a very good trigger with little fuss.
The point of all this is, if one is not a pistolero by calling, what is the best way to guarantee an officer will be able to return fire? I seem to be the only one who thinks that the simpler approach (pull trigger) might be better for the largest group of people instead of making the gun more complicated to use and demanding more training because of it.
If you are at all familiar with my pet peaves, you realize I agree about the Glock.
Actually using the safety on a handgun is a product of the latter half of the last century. As you point out, SA revolvers used no safety. Then DA revolvers came out, still no safety. Then SA autos came out, some had safeties, almost none were carried cocked with the safety on, including the 1911.
Cocked and locked carry, in handguns, is one of the newest ways of carrying a sidearm. It was only popularized in the '50s, well after DA triggers for carry were well established. This new carry method is more complicated than any other, but grants the benefit of a very good trigger with little fuss.
The point of all this is, if one is not a pistolero by calling, what is the best way to guarantee an officer will be able to return fire? I seem to be the only one who thinks that the simpler approach (pull trigger) might be better for the largest group of people instead of making the gun more complicated to use and demanding more training because of it.
No Handy I agree with you. Most line cops are such indifferent or wild shots that perhaps the non-serious ones might be best served by a pistol with no safeties coupled to a 22lb trigger pull and limited to about six rounds of capacity with no opportunity for a tactical reload.
From the mid-80s on, the stories have been rampant of officers unleashing dozens of shots at fleeing or fighting suspects, mostly with an abysmal hit rate. I remember one incident in Portland Oregon wherein a man with a gun was confronted on a city bus by two officers. The man lept off of the bus and began running across a vacant lot and one of the officers popped off at the fleeing suspect, missing him 18 times with a Glock 17. That scenario is not so isolated if the more recent shooting in NYC of the unarmed Amadou Diallo is any indicator. Then there is the recent Miami incident where a gun was apparently planted on a man shot at 123 or so times and only hit with eight rounds.
IMHO, many cops should be given the old S&W Model 10 Military & Police and one bullet to carry around in their shirt pocket. We might all be safer for it. Mayberry was.
From the mid-80s on, the stories have been rampant of officers unleashing dozens of shots at fleeing or fighting suspects, mostly with an abysmal hit rate. I remember one incident in Portland Oregon wherein a man with a gun was confronted on a city bus by two officers. The man lept off of the bus and began running across a vacant lot and one of the officers popped off at the fleeing suspect, missing him 18 times with a Glock 17. That scenario is not so isolated if the more recent shooting in NYC of the unarmed Amadou Diallo is any indicator. Then there is the recent Miami incident where a gun was apparently planted on a man shot at 123 or so times and only hit with eight rounds.
IMHO, many cops should be given the old S&W Model 10 Military & Police and one bullet to carry around in their shirt pocket.
We might all be safer for it. Mayberry was.
H
Handy
Guest
Boats,
Balance your comments with the fact that many highly trained professionals CHOOSE to carry simple, reliable DA autos and use them as well as any 1911 toter.
I have an example of every kind of trigger system conceivable and am a pretty good shot with all (no El Tejon, though). I put DA guns close to the top of my carry list not because I'm a clutz, but because I don't see any disadvantages to the system (yes, I can get a DA gun to hit a 7 yard target). The 1911 has disadvantages that can be OVERCOME, but I don't understand the need to do so, especially with a police force. As I said earlier, the 1911 makes a great deal of sense for SWAT units.
Delta Elite, where did you get the impression that anyone on this string thought 1911 shooters were stupid?
Balance your comments with the fact that many highly trained professionals CHOOSE to carry simple, reliable DA autos and use them as well as any 1911 toter.
I have an example of every kind of trigger system conceivable and am a pretty good shot with all (no El Tejon, though). I put DA guns close to the top of my carry list not because I'm a clutz, but because I don't see any disadvantages to the system (yes, I can get a DA gun to hit a 7 yard target). The 1911 has disadvantages that can be OVERCOME, but I don't understand the need to do so, especially with a police force. As I said earlier, the 1911 makes a great deal of sense for SWAT units.
Delta Elite, where did you get the impression that anyone on this string thought 1911 shooters were stupid?
cratz2
Member
On one hand (pardon the pun) I completely disagree with the notion that a perfectl textbook grip must be employeed to adequately fire a 1911. When I bought my first Series II Kimber, I shot right handed, wrong handed, upside down, limp wristing (as much as I could after years of NOT doing it), high grip, low grip. They all fired and they all hit the target when I was shooting at a target.
Truth be told, there is no longer a textbook hold for the 1911. There was a grip for the 1911, a higher allowable grip for the 1911A1, higher grips as grip safeties 'advanced' and even higher ones now with the likes of Ed Brown's safety.
I was taught the old WWII GI, single handed hold for the 1911 and that is what I used when I started shooting up until probably 1997 or so. Then I went to a higher hold and is what I instinctively use now. I used to hit my targets with regularity and continue to do so how.
Regardless of what any ill-informed non-shooting board of trustees 'finds', the 1911 platform, with proper training, consistantly allows for faster and more accurate shooting than Glocks, SIGs, Berettas, S&Ws etc... The experience and training is key. Give a guy a gun and 100 rounds of ammo, 4 hours of training and yearly (or less) quals and the Glock probably is the best choice. I still have a serious problem with LEOs carrying pistols with no active safety.
And maybe it's because I've been around 1911s forever but I honestly feel safer around officers with a cocked & locked 1911 than officers with Glocks. If someone grabs an officers 1911, there is still likely going to be that two or three seconds of fiddling with the safeties. With most of the rest, it's grab the gun and 'bang'. Of course, not sure what that says about revolvers...
Truth be told, there is no longer a textbook hold for the 1911. There was a grip for the 1911, a higher allowable grip for the 1911A1, higher grips as grip safeties 'advanced' and even higher ones now with the likes of Ed Brown's safety.
I was taught the old WWII GI, single handed hold for the 1911 and that is what I used when I started shooting up until probably 1997 or so. Then I went to a higher hold and is what I instinctively use now. I used to hit my targets with regularity and continue to do so how.
Regardless of what any ill-informed non-shooting board of trustees 'finds', the 1911 platform, with proper training, consistantly allows for faster and more accurate shooting than Glocks, SIGs, Berettas, S&Ws etc... The experience and training is key. Give a guy a gun and 100 rounds of ammo, 4 hours of training and yearly (or less) quals and the Glock probably is the best choice. I still have a serious problem with LEOs carrying pistols with no active safety.
And maybe it's because I've been around 1911s forever but I honestly feel safer around officers with a cocked & locked 1911 than officers with Glocks. If someone grabs an officers 1911, there is still likely going to be that two or three seconds of fiddling with the safeties. With most of the rest, it's grab the gun and 'bang'. Of course, not sure what that says about revolvers...
BerettaNut92
Member
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El Tejon is the man. I rice-paddy bow at the combat boots of his ultimate tacticality
One thing that has never ceased to amaze me is the inability of the vast majority of LEO's (the ones I've personally witnessed) to use their sidearm with any degree of proficiency. Clumsy at best is what usually comes to mind. It is with that I believe most departments/agencies have gone to high capacity DAO auto's with heavy triggers.
The whole thing comes down to a lack of adequate and continuous training with the most important tool in the toolbox. I think a well maintained 1911 can be every bit as reliable in the field as a Glock. While you do have the additional safety to manipulate, an individual can be taught how and when to disengage the safety in such a manner it is a non-issue.
Someone mentioned FBI HRT's use of the Para-Ordnance and why the discontinued their use. It was because of magazine reliability problems.
The whole thing comes down to a lack of adequate and continuous training with the most important tool in the toolbox. I think a well maintained 1911 can be every bit as reliable in the field as a Glock. While you do have the additional safety to manipulate, an individual can be taught how and when to disengage the safety in such a manner it is a non-issue.
Someone mentioned FBI HRT's use of the Para-Ordnance and why the discontinued their use. It was because of magazine reliability problems.
I want one!
Handy, it sounds like you are saying that, since your average police officer is a dim-bulb when it comes to guns, that PDs are wise to recognize that fact and select a dumbed down firearm accordingly.
Hmmm. I wish I could disagree with the premise. My problem with the conclusion is that I'm a hopeless purist, and the only RIGHT solution I can see is to require some decent training.
I know, it ain't gonna happen.
H
Handy
Guest
Quartus,
It sounds like you don't read for content as well as you proof-read.
It sounds like you don't read for content as well as you proof-read.
I ain’t got no dog in this fight, but I’ll be damned if I’ve ever come across another one that’s had me laughing this hard. And that includes the Mall Ninja and Pretty Boy threads.
No real point, just wanted to say I’ve enjoyed the banter. I think Handy and Tamara need to argue more often.
No real point, just wanted to say I’ve enjoyed the banter. I think Handy and Tamara need to argue more often.
DeltaElite
Member
Nevermind Handy, the thread just seems to be alot of 1911 and cop bashing.
I find it amusing that the 1911 was the army issue gun and all GI's were trained on it, but it is too complex for dumb old cops to use proficiently.
Maybe I am too sensitive today and just need a hug.
Anyway, I will be going away now.
FWIW, alot of my brethren shouldn't be carrying sharp sticks, but then again neither should most of society, if my trips to the police and public range are any indication of the average proficiency level of gun owners.
I find it amusing that the 1911 was the army issue gun and all GI's were trained on it, but it is too complex for dumb old cops to use proficiently.
Maybe I am too sensitive today and just need a hug.
Anyway, I will be going away now.
FWIW, alot of my brethren shouldn't be carrying sharp sticks, but then again neither should most of society, if my trips to the police and public range are any indication of the average proficiency level of gun owners.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
I will say that a lot of folks sure do hunt boogers, on all these problems of handling a handgun! I keep learning about all manner of things that haven't gone wrong for me a-tall, never!
I came late to the combat style with a 1911, not learning speed from a holster or the Weaver stance until 1980. My previous 35 years or so had been the classic one hand, sight, shoot, enjoy the the view of the hit. With IPSC stuff of that early 1980s era, doing more like what IDPA does today, I added in my own notions of "the unexpected", drawing and firing while walking or running or falling down. Or from the console of a truck, or from a desktop.
Amazingly, that old slabsides always has wound up where it's supposed to be. I just haven't been able to find all these problems, doing just fine with a pinned grip safety and coked and locked.
But folks gotta go with what works for them, not me...
, Art
I came late to the combat style with a 1911, not learning speed from a holster or the Weaver stance until 1980. My previous 35 years or so had been the classic one hand, sight, shoot, enjoy the the view of the hit. With IPSC stuff of that early 1980s era, doing more like what IDPA does today, I added in my own notions of "the unexpected", drawing and firing while walking or running or falling down. Or from the console of a truck, or from a desktop.
Amazingly, that old slabsides always has wound up where it's supposed to be. I just haven't been able to find all these problems, doing just fine with a pinned grip safety and coked and locked.
But folks gotta go with what works for them, not me...
, Art
H
Handy
Guest
Delta, find me an infantryman who was taught to carry a 1911 cocked and locked by the Army. Then we can talk about it.
DOD standard was Cond. 3. At various times in the guns history soldiers would carry it against regs in Cond. 2. So what does the US military have to do with cocked and locked carry?
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