the 5.7x28 nato - my theory

[elmerfudd]

I don't think the OP is a troll. I'm guessing he probably just has more interest in guns than personal experience with them and after virtually no one agreed with him he didn't feel like arguing the issue.

As to the 5.7 round, I think it sounds fantastic, for squirrels and rabbits and other small game that is. It's basically a reloadable .22 WMR and I wouldn't mind having a CZ452 chambered in it if they made one.

 

[Das Nemesis]

thanks, i figured this post would bring up alot of good points.

many i agree with but...i am trying to justify my wanting to get a ps90...

i do think that the full potential of the 5.7 has yet to be tapped. i plan on hand loading my own ammo...and i am unsure that i will be able to make a useful round out of the little bugger.

 

[elmerfudd]

Well, you have to consider a little what the original purpose of the 5.7x28 was. It wasn't designed to replace the 5.56 NATO, (which IMO is a little too small itself), but rather to provide a small arm to support troops that would be more effective than a pistol and provide some body armor piercing capability. In that role, I think it's pretty good, but not for front line troops. It just doesn't have the range or the power for that purpose.

 

[nwilliams]

many i agree with but...i am trying to justify my wanting to get a ps90...

Don't worry about trying to justify your reason for wanting a PS90. The fact is I held off for a long time on that rifle (and pistol) simply because of all the bashing of the round 5.7 round. When I finally took the plunge I couldn't have been happier with either the Five-Seven or the PS90, they are both accurate, reliable and fun as hell to shoot. As far as I'm concerned they have both earned a place in my permanent collection and I have no plans to get rid of either one just because some people out there don't like the round.

The truth is you should get what you really want and never mind the naysayers, trust me if you get the PS90 you will not be disappointed. After finally buying one this month I'm now kicking myself for waiting so long, seeing as though I've been wanting one since they first came out.

Whether or not the 5.7x28 is an effective combat round is pretty irrelevant to me, I didn't buy the guns for defensive reasons I got them because I wanted something fun to shoot and because I've always had a desire to own a P90 and Five-Seven. If I'm going to carry a handgun then I have better options than the Five-Seven, if I need a defensive rifle I've got plenty of those as well to grab from the safe if need be. Whether or not the round is an effective man stopper is pretty low on my list of reasons for owning either gun. It's all about fun and I'll be honest I do appreciate how much owning them really ticks off the anti's out there

If you're looking for a defensive rifle then of course there are better choices out there. If you are looking for a gun that is fun to shoot, interesting, accurate and reliable then you may really enjoy the PS90. It is an expensive gun however so make sure you are buying it for the right reasons and if stopping power is a big concern for you then you may want to consider something else. I weighed carefully my reasoning for buying both the Five-Seven and the PS90 and so far I'm quite happy with the decision to get them.

Good luck with your decision and welcome to THR btw!

 

[Das Nemesis]

well i would like to have a gun that is fun to shoot aswell as a SHTF weapon.
from what i am seeing it is next to impossible for people to get a 55+grain round out at 3k fps...which pretty much kills its effectiveness.

which means that i am most likely going for a a m1a...

 

[Das Nemesis]

alright...so upon more investigation into the 5.7
it appears the 5.7 can penetrate 19 inches into gel out of the fiveseven handgun at 25 feet.

would a ps90 be a decent shtf gun for 150 yards and under?

im not going to try and compare the 5.7 to the 5.56...my op was a information probe, not a truthful TnO.

the 5.7 is a handgun round, not a rifle found, and should not be compared to them. thats like comparing a f1 car to a drag car...one is made for high speed tight turns and the other is made for really really fast bursts of speed.

 

[RevolverMan567]

im not too sure I can co-sign on your statement that a direct hit from a 308 to the stomach would be painful and uncomfortable but not nearly immediately lethal, but the 5.7 would be...

 

[Zak Smith]

honestly i believe that the best, and most versatile caliber is yet to be made...a 10mm caliber round with many types of rounds and shell sizes would be ideal. a 10x30mm round for handgun/sub machine gun, 10x50mm rifle round, and 10x70 sniper rifle round...what is the advantage of this?

the rounds themselves would have a standard 5 gram weight (77.16 grains), with some rounds reaching up to 150 grams (231.49 grains).

I'm going to leave the rest, but your comments on the viability of these made-up rifle rounds are totally off base.

To get a .40" bullet with a BC that matches the 175 SMK, it needs to weigh over 300 grains. To get one that matches the .338 Lapua (say 300gr SMK), it has to weigh over 440 grains. The aspect ratios of the bullets and the case volume to bore size and bullet mass ratios are all wrong.

A GPMG cartridge in 10x50 would be much worse than current 7.62x51 weapons because their effective range would be much less, since the velocity and BC would be much worse (ie, would need to drive a 266gr bullet at 2700+ fps to match 7.62gr ball - not going to happen with a 50mm long case and a case head size even remotely similar to 7.62x51).

-z

 

[taliv]

from what i am seeing it is next to impossible for people to get a 55+grain round out at 3k fps...which pretty much kills its effectiveness.

is this an information probe as well? if so, the answer to your non-question is that 55g m193 has a MV well over 3k fps.

the 5.7 is a handgun round, not a rifle found, and should not be compared to them. thats like comparing a f1 car to a drag car...one is made for high speed tight turns and the other is made for really really fast bursts of speed.

stop me if i'm missing something here, but weren't you the one that compared them in your OP?


it's customary in English to ask for information with questions. it's not a requirement, but it is probably the path of least resistance to useful information. moreover, it is far less likely to spread misinformation than if someone happens across one of your statement-questions in a search.

in short, the venerable 'question' is probably a convention to which you should adhere.


as for the 5.7x28 and ps90. they're fun and cool. if you want one, get one. but do not fool yourself into thinking it's a decent "shtf" gun.

 

[Das Nemesis]

alright, im going to get down to real questions.
a 69 grain boat tail hollow point round
yes, it is a heavy round for a 5.7...however...with the right powder and primer what type of velocities could i be looking at?
if it was possible to get it to 3000fps it would be an amazing round.

say, for example, Lapua 4 PL/HL 5010 HPBT 69 grain, loaded with High burn rate N500 powder, and i am not to sure of the primer.

 

[Zak Smith]

alright, im going to get down to real questions.
a 69 grain boat tail hollow point round
yes, it is a heavy round for a 5.7...however...with the right powder and primer what type of velocities could i be looking at?
if it was possible to get it to 3000fps it would be an amazing round.

say, for example, Lapua 4 PL/HL 5010 HPBT 69 grain, loaded with High burn rate N500 powder, and i am not to sure of the primer.

Get yourself a reloading manual. Inventive people have tried a vast assortment of wildcat cartridges over the last 100 years. Chances are good the idea has been tried before, or at least something close. Failing that, you can see "what is possible."

To put this in perspective, the 69gr HPBT is a common load for .223 Remington. Let's say from a 16" carbine, commercial ammunition has a muzzle velocity of 2750 fps.

The 5.7x28 cartridge has a case capacity of 14 gr H20. .223 Remington has a case capacity of 28.4. In other words, the .223 has over twice the powder volume that the 5.7x28 does. There's no way it can match or beat the .223, or even come close.

loaded with High burn rate N500 powder, and i am not to sure of the primer.

None of this makes any sense. You're just copying jargon and stuff you've found on the internet, without understanding any of it, as far as I can tell.

 

[elmerfudd]

It would indeed be impressive if a 5.7x28 could propel a 69 grain bullet at 3000 fps, but I think you'd need some sort of high explosive charge in order to do it. The .223 barely manages 3000 fps with a 69 grain bullet and it's got more than twice the case capacity of the 5.7.

 

[-v-]

What others have stated. Unfortunately, barring a break-through in powder technology, it is right now infeasible to get a 69gr bullet up to 3000 fps out of a PS90. The case capacity isn't there, and furthermore, the direct-blowback mechanism of the PS90 probably would not be able to keep the chamber closed under the pressures that would theoretically be needed to launch a slug that fast.

While you could over-charge the round beyond its safe capacity and try to get it that fast, at that point you've done more to create a hand-grenade next to your cheek more so then a viable competitor to the .223 in under 100 yards. So, unfortunately no-can-do.

If you are still after a rifle-like performance out of a SMG at 100 yards or less, I would advise you to look for a 7.62TT Carbine. That round has been doing all that the 5.7 is doing since before WW2, including the 5.7's AP ability. Plus, 7.62TT has plenty of penetration, combined with a tumbling bullet profile to create some interesting terminal ballistics results.

Best as I recall a 7.62TT out of a barrel of a PPSh-41 pushed something in the neighborhood of 750fpe. So about half as much as the 7.62x39 proper.

If its justifying purchasing of a PS90, well its a very unique looking weapon, holds 50 rounds, easy to maneuver, and most importantly: Its the gun used on Stargate! I mean, really, can it get any more cool then Jack O'Neill's (R.D. Anderson AKA McGuyver) gun?

 

[evan price]

Consider that Accurate lists a 35-grain Hornady V-MAX and a max-load of #7 powder at a maximum FPS of 2197 at 45.2K PSI- I think a 3000 FPS 5.7 in a pistol is not only out of the question, but kind of silly, really, unless your intention is to create a $1000 hand grenade.

Otherwise, for an Operator such as yourself, your armorer should be able to consult with Q-branch to get the latest high velocity ammo for your next mission.

 

[GregGry]

alright...so upon more investigation into the 5.7
it appears the 5.7 can penetrate 19 inches into gel out of the fiveseven handgun at 25 feet.

Read my previous posts. The ss190 armor piercing round is known to be in the 10 inch range in ballistics gel. The hottest aftermarket round for the gun that I have seen tested hit 12.5 inches with 0 tumbling action. I have never seen any test that showed the 5.7 round going through anymore then 12.5 inches of calibrated gel. 19 inches is 5.56 territory, and its not going to happen out of the 5.7 cartridge considering it has half the case capacity of the 5.56 round and it is loaded with much lighter bullets.

 

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

Why are you so hung up on 3,000 FPS? Just because you can drive a bullet that fast doesn't mean you should. Usually you get longer case and barrel life the slower you go. On top of that your gun may not shoot well at that speed, it may be more accurate at 2,700 FPS. Do a search here IIRC there was a fellow who kaboomed his 5.7 with reloads, so be careful reloading for the 5.7 cartridge, its not forgiving.

 

[Girodin]

But if you're talking about a rifle, the .223 also has high velocity and high capacity, not sure how the recoil compares.

The felt recoil on my ps90 is basically zero. New shooters really enjoy it. The felt recoil on my all the .223 rifles I have shot, (AR AK AUG dawoe D200 or whatever it is called, etc) is basically zero as well. The PS90 is likely lower but thy ae both so low it doesn't really matte. Where there is a noticable difference is muzzle blast and sound, with the PS90 being much less. When I compare it to my aug clone it is a substantial difference. I have always thought that is one thing the PS90 would have going for it were one to fire it indoors.

Its 50 round mag capacity is nice but mag changes are much slower. I will admit I have not made an effort to learn the bet technique and drill it. Doing so would likely yield great improvements (as it did for me with my AK). Even with substantial improvement it would be slower than with some of my other box mag rifles. You do have fifty rounds though.

If you want the gun there is no need to justify it. If you want it to fill a certain role and have requirements then you are better off not telling yourself lies, but picking something that in actuality meets your requirements.

People trying to convince themselves and by extension everyone else that their new toy is best is silly and annoying. Fanboys like that may not realize it but they have very little credibility because most people see right through them.

The PS90 is a great gun and dont mind the bashers (many of them cannot afford a PS90 and the bitterness fuels their hate) the PS90 is a fun, accurate, very reliable gun. Don't be so blind that you dismiss legitimate critiques as bashing though.

One more word about PS90 bashers. I have never met one at the range but I have had lots of people want to shoot it.

 

[Gunnerpalace]

There is a picture somewhere on here of the 5.7 out penatrating the high and mighty .45.

 

[Acera]

Gunnerpalace There is a picture somewhere on here of the 5.7 out penatrating the high and mighty .45.

Even the .22lr out penetrates the .45


That is not the point.

 

[JShirley]

I think the P90 is a neat little piece, but is outclassed in almost every regard by the Bizon 3 in 7.62x25mm.

Too bad I've never seen a Bizon 3 for sale in the states.

John

 

[Gunnerpalace]

That is not the point.

Semi-True,

I recall there were some people (maybe not this thread) that said the .45 was better at penetration. Thought I would throw that out there,

 

[GregGry]

Semi-True,

I recall there were some people (maybe not this thread) that said the .45 was better at penetration. Thought I would throw that out there,

It depends on the target that was used. The 5.7 will penetrate wet phone books better then the .45acp. However in ballistics gel there are many hollow point loads that reach 14.5 inches of penetration (something I have never seen a 5.7 round do in calibrated gel). Since the 5.7 penetrates to 12.5 (the max I have seen) doesn't tumble, is performs essentially the same as a 22mag would if it had a spitzer bullet.

 

[Interceptor_Knight]

one advantage to the 5.7 is the light recoil, high velocity and high ammo capacity. the 5.7 varmint grenade round would be ideal for personally defense, as well as military operations against unarmored foes. for those who do not know about this round, when it enters the target it basically explodes, sending shards of metal through out the area of impact. one shot to the chest or sternum could be instantly fatal, causing damage to the lungs, heart, liver and kidneys in just 2 shots. shots to the legs or arms have a high chance of cutting arteries and causing the foe to bleed to death internally, if it does not cut the skin.

So you have a very light 5.7mm round that fragments upon impact... Big deal. Unless you have penetration, that fragmentation will not stop a threat. The term "grenade" is advertising BS. You are advocating a very expensive rifle using expensive cartridges which are intended for varmints to stop a 250lb threat. I have a decent amount of trigger time with a P90 in both full and semiauto mode. It is definitely a fun rifle to shoot. No doubt about that. I do not however have a desire to buy a PS90.
If I were to shell out the cash for a bullpup, I much prefer the F2000 though (SBR FS2000 if I were to buy it). I am choosing to pass on both and I will stick to an AR15 carbine for a CQB rifle.

 

[Jaws]

I doubt the P-90 and the 5.7 are as bad as some people here think.
When you think that US Secret Service switched from Mp-5's to P-90's, the-5.7x28 has to be more effective then the 9mm in submachine guns.

Just look at the HUGE list of users on FN P-90 Wiki page. It has to have something really attractive going for it to be so popular. When you look at the users list, this are not organizations that take their information about their next firearms from an Internet forum. They get samples and test the crap out of them to see if they perform, and by the look of it the 5.7x28mm and P-90 combo does a hell of a job to satisfy a lot of law enforcement and security agencies.

 

[Interceptor_Knight]

I doubt the P-90 and the 5.7 are as bad as some people here think.
When you think that US Secret Service switched from Mp-5's to P-90's, the-5.7x28 has to be more effective then the 9mm in submachine guns.

You can not compare a P90 SMG with LEO rounds with a PS90 and varmint rounds...